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LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

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swt_passenger

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I highly doubt that, what on earth would the reasoning be? If so almost definitely not North of Newcastle.
Presumably the same reasoning that led to the original VT 2016 track access application, which included the distinct possibility of 91/Mk4 sets being dedicated to the fast Edinburgh service. (Although in that case they were supposedly going to be shortened sets to maintain 80x timings.)
 
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YorksLad12

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Presumably the same reasoning that led to the original VT 2016 track access application, which included the distinct possibility of 91/Mk4 sets being dedicated to the fast Edinburgh service. (Although in that case they were supposedly going to be shortened sets to maintain 80x timings.)
Whatever happened to the test shorter set? I saw it in Leeds last year (I might have even mentioned that upthread) and was expecting all of the Mk4 sets to be reduced. But if the London-Leeds journey time is only five minutes faster than at present perhaps they don't need shorter sets to maintain timings?
 

swt_passenger

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Whatever happened to the test shorter set? I saw it in Leeds last year (I might have even mentioned that upthread) and was expecting all of the Mk4 sets to be reduced. But if the London-Leeds journey time is only five minutes faster than at present perhaps they don't need shorter sets to maintain timings?
Don’t remember, it all went a bit quiet. I suppose we also have to consider their long term maintenance allocation, Neville Hill would be odd if they end up never going to Leeds…
 

43 302

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Presumably the same reasoning that led to the original VT 2016 track access application, which included the distinct possibility of 91/Mk4 sets being dedicated to the fast Edinburgh service. (Although in that case they were supposedly going to be shortened sets to maintain 80x timings.
That was before crew competency was lost and the Newcastle thunderbird was withdrawn!
 

DanNCL

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Whatever happened to the test shorter set? I saw it in Leeds last year (I might have even mentioned that upthread) and was expecting all of the Mk4 sets to be reduced. But if the London-Leeds journey time is only five minutes faster than at present perhaps they don't need shorter sets to maintain timings?
Don’t remember, it all went a bit quiet. I suppose we also have to consider their long term maintenance allocation, Neville Hill would be odd if they end up never going to Leeds…
It was returned to full length at some point during 2020.


That was before crew competency was lost and the Newcastle thunderbird was withdrawn!
Crew competency can be sorted with traction refreshers. A thunderbird whilst nice to have is not essential.
 

Mollman

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A pair of Rail Operations Group 37s took a formation of 10 Mark 4s (from former sets BN16 and BN18) and two DVTs (82215 and 82222) from Worksop to Doncaster today for overhaul. These will return to service with LNER - a new 9 car set numbered NL16 will be made up from those vehicles, with DVT 82222 and TSOE 12202 becoming additional spare vehicles.
When you say overhaul, is this just to get them suitable for use again after being in store or are they starting to refurbish the MK4s?
 

DanNCL

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When you say overhaul, is this just to get them suitable for use again after being in store or are they starting to refurbish the MK4s?
Mechanical overhaul, same as the other sets in service have been getting over the last few months. No changes to the interior or livery.
 

HST43257

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If they're only running to Newcastle (if it happens at all) then I'm guessing they will just do morning southbound and evening northbound services. That is, of course, unless extra paths are put in - I would like the sound of that!
 

DanNCL

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If they're only running to Newcastle (if it happens at all) then I'm guessing they will just do morning southbound and evening northbound services. That is, of course, unless extra paths are put in - I would like the sound of that!
An hourly Kings Cross - Newcastle stopping service is planned for the May 2022 timetable change. In the current timetable there's a pair of Kings Cross - Newcastle and back trips on Sundays, but otherwise the only Newcastle starting/ending services are those that stable at Heaton.
 

800001

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Talks are underway for 91s to be diagrammed North of York from the December timetable change.
Well, that's news to a hell of a lot of people In Lner who actually manage the mk4s and plan them, but hey, suppose they are always the last to know
 

DanNCL

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Well, that's news to a hell of a lot of people In Lner who actually manage the mk4s and plan them, but hey, suppose they are always the last to know
Considering when I had a reservations issue on LNER (app would offer reservations on services that TVMs claimed were full) and I reported it to customer services, pretty much everyone *apart from* the team that actually needed the info knew about it, and it took someone from the relevant team reading my post on this forum to find out about it, it wouldn't surprise me with LNER if the relevant teams aren't being kept up to date in other areas too...

There is also the question of politics, there will no doubt be political pressure on LNER to reduce the number of short forms, and it is well known amongst those in the industry, enthusiasts, and likely politicians, that utilisation of the Mark 4 fleet is low (I know there's several reasons behind that but it isn't a good look for the company when people are routinely being left behind by 5 car 80xs). Any political pressue to do something about it could very well lead to stuff being dealt with at senior management level, which would of course then be fed down to those on the front line at a later date. Politicians don't normally speak to those in diagramming, they speak to senior management.
 

Swimbar

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Well, that's news to a hell of a lot of people In Lner who actually manage the mk4s and plan them, but hey, suppose they are always the last to know
People don't understand the difference between 'talk' 'rumour' and 'fact ' let's wait and see
 

800001

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People don't understand the difference between 'talk' 'rumour' and 'fact ' let's wait and see
Probably all the talk of lner getting another 3 sets of mk4s, which in fact are being made into 1 additional set using the best carriages.
 

43096

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Probably all the talk of lner getting another 3 sets of mk4s, which in fact are being made into 1 additional set using the best carriages.
It’s more that there are no complete sets left off lease in their original planned formations. All the off lease sets have vehicles either been sold to TfW or been sent for scrap.
 

sheardemand

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Yup, definitely: https://jobs.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/vacancies.aspx?cat=455



It's probably just the scheduled refurbs, but the sets look much better cared for now they've been moved up north.
I actually work at Neville Hill on the IC225 project

Apparently, LNER are taking back the ex Grand Central mk4 coaches and possibly class 90 locomotives. There is a possibility of reintroducing sets on north of England services, from what a member of staff said the other night when I was travelling.

Suspect its the same reason LNER staff are no longer allowed to dispatch slam door stock anymore.
Do we have any Level 5 maintainers who really know the LNER Mk4 IC225's.
 
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DanNCL

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If anyone wants something incredibly rare, as a result of today’s disruption 1A31 13:15 Leeds - Kings Cross, with 91111, will stop to pick up and drop off passengers at Huntingdon.
 

Ec91109

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Is there any update on the plans for the 91s working north of York from December? Heard a few rumours here and there but it seems to have gone a bit silent.
 

800001

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Is there any update on the plans for the 91s working north of York from December? Heard a few rumours here and there but it seems to have gone a bit silent.
Total no go. Was talked about behind the scenes, but isn't happening.
 

800001

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Talking to a Newcastle LNER driver last week. She was saying that there was an issue with maintenance of the 91s. So probably likely that it is not going to happen now.
There getting old, have moved to a new depot who had never maintained a 91 or mk4 set, so yes there is issues. It is often a struggle to get 3 sets in use each day
 
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DanNCL

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Just because it‘s now unlikely to happen in December doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t ever happen in the future. Eventually LNER will realise that saving some money on a thunderbird and crew refreshers isn’t worth the additional inconvenience to customers on the ever increasing number of occasions where the inability/refusal to send 91s North of York has led to services being cancelled or short formed that could otherwise have run.

This issue has been raised by stakeholders with LNER. It has become apparent that this lack of flexibility *is* leading to unacceptable additional inconvenience for customers during disruption, despite what LNER and some posters on Facebook groups and forums may say.

Regarding maintenance issues being cited as a reason, this could perhaps more be down to not currently having an agreement in place with Northern for 91+Mark 4 sets to stable at Heaton. This also caused problems during the last couple of months of booked 91 work to Edinburgh as it meant during disruption the sets couldn’t be allocated to any diagram ending at Heaton.

There getting old, have moved to a new depot who had never maintained a 91 or mk4 seat, so yes there is issues. It is often a struggle to get 3 sets in use each day
Neville Hill may only recently have become the “home” depot for the fleet but they’ve been doing some maintenance on the 91s and Mark 4 sets since they were first introduced, so the fleet isn’t completely new to them and they should to some extent know how to rectify the more common faults. I maintain what I have said previously that availability/utilisation of the fleet, even when the change of home depot is taken into account, is below a level that could reasonably be considered adequate.
 
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Swimbar

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Just because it‘s now unlikely to happen in December doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t ever happen in the future. Eventually LNER will realise that saving some money on a thunderbird and crew refreshers isn’t worth the additional inconvenience to customers on the ever increasing number of occasions where the inability/refusal to send 91s North of York has led to services being cancelled or short formed that could otherwise have run.

This issue has been raised by stakeholders with LNER. It has become apparent that this lack of flexibility *is* leading to unacceptable additional inconvenience for customers during disruption, despite what LNER and some posters on Facebook groups and forums
Given that there is little chance of additional sets becoming available presumably you want more trains to Newcastle and less to Leeds/Bradford/Skipton & Harrogate?

The population of West Yorkshire is 3 times that of Tyneside!
 
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DanNCL

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Given that there is little chance of additional sets becoming available presumably you want more trains to Newcastle and less to Leeds/Bradford/Skipton & Harrogate?
They have 8 sets. It's not unreasonable to expect more than 3 of them to be in use at any one time. Granted there's the ongoing overhauls which are reducing availability, but it shouldn't be reducing availability to as low as 37.5% which is what it currently stands at. 5 sets per day working would be 62.5% utilisation, definitely not an unreasonable expectation. If 37.5% availability is seriously the best they can get out of the fleet then some serious questions need to be asked about what is going wrong. I'm not accepting the move to Neville Hill as an explanation for it - whilst it no doubt doesn't help, a depot move shouldn't reduce availability that drastically, especially not one that took place 8 months ago now. The move of 158s to Heaton in 2019 didn't go anywhere near as badly from a stock availability perspective, nor did the move of XC's HSTs to Laira (although admittedly that was helped by Laira already maintaining other HST sets).

The main issue with the lack of them running north of York is with disruption. There have been multiple cases where recently 5 car sets (or sometimes even no set at all) have turned up for busy Newcastle services during disruption solely as a result of the inability/refusal to use the Mark 4 sets North of York. Newcastle based crews not signing them causes issues South of York too. Lets say (I know this might not be the most realisitic example but it should make the point) there's disruption, which leads to only one train and one crew being at Kings Cross ready to take a service North. That train is a Mark 4 set, and the crew is Newcastle based. Despite there being both a train and a crew ready, the service ends up going nowhere as the competency on the Mark 4s for the crew waiting has lapsed. Situations like that are fully preventable, and are of zero benefit to the customer.

Nobody (or at least not me anyway) is suggesting removing mark 4 sets from the Leeds route to run to Newcastle instead. Operationally it is more convenient to use them on the Leeds route, and where they can be used on the Leeds route without causing undue inconvenience for customers then by all means that should be where they are used, but operational convenience and saving money on crew refreshers and an extra thunderbird should not be taking precedent over getting paying customers (many of whom will have paid more than £100 for their ticket) to where they're going in a reasonable timeframe. Most passengers couldn't care less whether it was an Azuma, Mark 4 set or a brick on wheels taking them to their destination as long as it gets them there without unreasonable delay - passengers in the main will not consider "wrong type of train" as a vaild reason for a delay or cancellation.
 

47827

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It's long known that the sets are better suited to longer semi fast/fast runs with the less stops than simply being confined to Leeds services. BUT I am aware of the main reasons behind it. If those obstacles could be overcome still then and just a few Leeds services to get sets off and back onto NL would be better for performance and give more options plus keep competency and the main maintenance at its current base. Time will tell if that happens. Doesn't look like anything will change YET.
 

800001

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They have 8 sets. It's not unreasonable to expect more than 3 of them to be in use at any one time. Granted there's the ongoing overhauls which are reducing availability, but it shouldn't be reducing availability to as low as 37.5% which is what it currently stands at. 5 sets per day working would be 62.5% utilisation, definitely not an unreasonable expectation. If 37.5% availability is seriously the best they can get out of the fleet then some serious questions need to be asked about what is going wrong. I'm not accepting the move to Neville Hill as an explanation for it - whilst it no doubt doesn't help, a depot move shouldn't reduce availability that drastically, especially not one that took place 8 months ago now. The move of 158s to Heaton in 2019 didn't go anywhere near as badly from a stock availability perspective, nor did the move of XC's HSTs to Laira (although admittedly that was helped by Laira already maintaining other HST sets).

The main issue with the lack of them running north of York is with disruption. There have been multiple cases where recently 5 car sets (or sometimes even no set at all) have turned up for busy Newcastle services during disruption solely as a result of the inability/refusal to use the Mark 4 sets North of York. Newcastle based crews not signing them causes issues South of York too. Lets say (I know this might not be the most realisitic example but it should make the point) there's disruption, which leads to only one train and one crew being at Kings Cross ready to take a service North. That train is a Mark 4 set, and the crew is Newcastle based. Despite there being both a train and a crew ready, the service ends up going nowhere as the competency on the Mark 4s for the crew waiting has lapsed. Situations like that are fully preventable, and are of zero benefit to the customer.

Nobody (or at least not me anyway) is suggesting removing mark 4 sets from the Leeds route to run to Newcastle instead. Operationally it is more convenient to use them on the Leeds route, and where they can be used on the Leeds route without causing undue inconvenience for customers then by all means that should be where they are used, but operational convenience and saving money on crew refreshers and an extra thunderbird should not be taking precedent over getting paying customers (many of whom will have paid more than £100 for their ticket) to where they're going in a reasonable timeframe. Most passengers couldn't care less whether it was an Azuma, Mark 4 set or a brick on wheels taking them to their destination as long as it gets them there without unreasonable delay - passengers in the main will not consider "wrong type of train" as a vaild reason for a delay or cancellation.
I would love to know where you get this idea that 5 cars or cancellations of services heading to Newcastle is all down to mk4s not been allowed to go north of York.
Are you there when decided are made? Do you know what had been considered prior to these the go happening? Can you say that every time that happens is down to a refusal to use a Mk4?
Can you list these 'multiple' occasions? I bet someone else can come up with the official reason why decisions were made, rather than you 'assuming' it is all down to mk4s
 
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