Petrol panic buying

[steamybrian]

Around my local area in Kent virtually all petrol stations are closed- no fuel.
Word seems to get around when a tanker lorry delivery arrives at a petrol station and a long queue of cars seem to quickly form.
It is lucky I filled up with petrol just before the "panic" started and am now rationing myself to local journeys only. I estimate I can carry on for about another 2 or 3 weeks before I shall run out.
I was planning to visit the Bluebell Railway and K&ESR but they will have to wait.

 

[brad465]

When it comes to sustainability, we seem to have dug ourselves a hole which, if we carry on, will bit us in the backside hard eventually. Human history has shown that societies that lived unsustainably ultimately perished or at least suffered badly.

We are told that we need more working people because health care for elderly people (especially those with ongoing health conditions) and pensions is expensive, and the ratio of retired people to working people is increasing, generating an increasing tax burden on those working people. There is an upper limit to how much tax revenue the government can squeeze out of people (because wages are finite and a basic income required to live is greater than zero). The standard solution is to either increase the birth rate, which in a couple of decades leads to more young people entering the job market, or have people move here from abroad for work, who then contribute to tax revenue. The problem with this is those working people eventually become retired people, and you then need even more people in the workplace to generate tax revenue to support those retired people. What you end up with if you want to keep balancing social care with tax revenue is an increasing population. An increasing population is not sustainable because land space does not increase over time, so there is an upper limit to how high the population can get before undesirable things start happening (like, for example, massive house price inflation due to demand exceeding supply).

The current mantra of continunal economic growth is ultimately "wrong" because it is unsustainable as a result of resources being finite. The solution is a steady state economy, but that is an anathema to capitalism, so you need to ditch capitalism and create a completely new way of living that is compatible with resource consumption being balanced by resource creation. Good luck with that.

Completely agree with how unsustainable our system is: the main reason though it's hard to change is because the same system enriches the top 1% in wealth and power, and they won't give these up easily. I do think the petrol crisis with related driver shortages is a sign our economy maybe oversized for the current workforce and resource input, and realistically I don't think GDP growth is both sensible and even realistic in future; the sooner we try to measure wellbeing through alternative channels the better.

To be honest I wouldn't mind doing that if anyone was interested, alternatively I would like to talk to some of those who have been panic buying to try and understand their thinking, and I would be happy to explain why I don't panic buy.

Yes Lorraine Kelly revealed she did something like this to some toilet roll panic buyers last year, and through reasoned discussion persuaded them to put some of their load back. This is what we need more of in society, not petty blame and insulting others, however wrong they are.

Around my local area in Kent virtually all petrol stations are closed- no fuel.
Word seems to get around when a tanker lorry delivery arrives at a petrol station and a long queue of cars seem to quickly form.
It is lucky I filled up with petrol just before the "panic" started and am now rationing myself to local journeys only. I estimate I can carry on for about another 2 or 3 weeks before I shall run out.
I was planning to visit the Bluebell Railway and K&ESR but they will have to wait.

Yes London and the South East are being reported as the worst affected areas, with improvements seen in other parts of the country. How easily could you get to the Bluebell railway by train out of interest? I accept the K&ESR is a long shot on public transport, at least until the Rother Valley Railway extension to Robertsbridge is complete (if it's ever completed).

 

[al78]

Yes London and the South East are being reported as the worst affected areas, with improvements seen in other parts of the country. How easily could you get to the Bluebell railway by train out of interest? I accept the K&ESR is a long shot on public transport, at least until the Rother Valley Railway extension to Robertsbridge is complete (if it's ever completed).

The Bluebell railway starts/ends at East Grinstead, the problem is there is only one way into East Grinstead by train, from the London direction. There are no other stations on the national rail network which are close. If you are prepared to cycle a few miles you could get to it from Three Bridges, Balcombe, Haywards Heath or Wivelsfield/Burgess Hill. You can probably get a train to Three Bridges or Haywards Heath and get a bus to near one of the stations.

Around my local area in Kent virtually all petrol stations are closed- no fuel.
Word seems to get around when a tanker lorry delivery arrives at a petrol station and a long queue of cars seem to quickly form.
It is lucky I filled up with petrol just before the "panic" started and am now rationing myself to local journeys only. I estimate I can carry on for about another 2 or 3 weeks before I shall run out.
I was planning to visit the Bluebell Railway and K&ESR but they will have to wait.

Passed several stations around West Sussex today which were out of fuel. I fortunately filled up a couple of weeks before all this kicked off, and I'm in the priviliged position of not being totally dependant on my car, so I could make a tank of fuel last into the New Year if it came down to it. The people with problems are (amongst others) those who have to drive hundreds of miles a week.

 

[MattRat]

"Science behind panic buying"?

I must be a one in some million human being, as I never had the urge to panic buy last year during the fear the shelves would be empty, or now during the fear of being unable to get fuel. Perhaps my brain is wired differently to most of the human race, or it is some side effect of the brain damage I suffered six years ago.

I blame the 'education' system for the way most people think.

 

[steamybrian]

The Bluebell railway starts/ends at East Grinstead, the problem is there is only one way into East Grinstead by train, from the London direction. There are no other stations on the national rail network which are close. If you are prepared to cycle a few miles you could get to it from Three Bridges, Balcombe, Haywards Heath or Wivelsfield/Burgess Hill. You can probably get a train to Three Bridges or Haywards Heath and get a bus to near one of the stations.

I live in Tonbridge which makes getting to the Bluebell Railway by public transport very difficult. At my "senior citizen" age I gave up cycling up years ago . Without giving away my age too much but just to say my first visit to the Bluebell Railway was in 1963 when I travelled in a 2BIL from Haywards Heath to Horsted Keynes via Ardingly......!
To visit the railway by public transport here are some options I have considered -
Option 1 - up to Tonbridge to London Bridge (change) then to East Croydon (change) then to East Grinstead.
Option 2- Tonbridge- Redhill (change) then to Gatwick Airport (change) then to Haywards Heath. Bus to Horsted Keynes or East Grinstead. ....Once used this option and the bus dropped me in Horsted Keynes village and faced a over one mile walk to Horsted Keynes station..!
Option 3- Tonbridge- Tunbridge Wells (by rail) then by 291 bus to East Grinstead. A lovely ride through the countryside but very slow.

Consider all these when I can do the journey in 45 minutes in a straight line using the country lanes across the Weald and Ashdown Forest.

Actually K&ESR is more easily accessible - train to Headcorn then by no. 12 bus to Tenterden High Street then 5 minutes walk to the station. I tried it once got the train to Headcorn and just missed the bus and waited nearly one hour for the next one. Similarly can get to Northiam in 45 minutes by car using the A21 and A268.

 

[reddragon]

I route myself to avoid petrol stations and the attached queues or erratic driving around them.

Down to 21% charge, plugged into the solar panels for a free fill up

zipcar.com has loads of e-Golfs to hire by the minute in London if anyone is desperate, really good option and less stress!

 

[Starmill]

The Prime Minister claims that difficulties in purchasing motor fuel when you need it are "part of a necessary transition for Britain".

Conservative conference: UK in period of adjustment after Brexit, says PM

Boris Johnson refuses to rule out supply problems at Christmas as fuel shortages continue.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[MattRat]

The Prime Minister claims that difficulties in purchasing motor fuel when you need it are "part of a necessary transition for Britain".

Conservative conference: UK in period of adjustment after Brexit, says PM

Boris Johnson refuses to rule out supply problems at Christmas as fuel shortages continue.

www.bbc.co.uk

You'd think he was against Brexit with comments like that....

 

[reddragon]

Its not my fault guv, it's of those of you who voted Brexit, not me for telling you to!

Washes hands vigorously and blames covid.

 

[Ediswan]

The Prime Minister claims that difficulties in purchasing motor fuel when you need it are "part of a necessary transition for Britain".

Conservative conference: UK in period of adjustment after Brexit, says PM

Boris Johnson refuses to rule out supply problems at Christmas as fuel shortages continue.

www.bbc.co.uk

Does your post link to the intended article ? I can't find the quoted text anywhere there, or in the video.

 

[DarloRich]

I saw a tanker today................................ it was a milk tanker. FFS.

Don't worry the 100 (!) drivers form the forces start work tomorrow. That will fix the non crisis.

The Prime Minister claims that difficulties in purchasing motor fuel when you need it are "part of a necessary transition for Britain".

Transition to corrupt, tin pot, third world country?

 

[pnepaul]

I have just driven from Workington to Stirling. I passed 4 filling stations all had fuel and there were no queues.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Fuel situation in Croydon.

My local Petrol Station that as far as I know had been OK then ran out on Tuesday. Delivery Tuesday night. By Thursday they had no Diesel. On Friday they had no premium Diesel or Premium Petrol but strangely ordinary diesel had returned !. They had run out of all fuel by today (Sunday) with a delivery expected tonight. Staff said that the delivery they had last time was less than they ordered.

I would say that in Croydon it is getting worse when I expected it to get better. My only hope is that the panic buyers cannot get much more fuel in their tank(s) anytime soon.

So, can we conclude that lots of people do, in actual fact, benefit from freedom of movement of workers from other countries then, in keeping us plentifully supplied with fuel and food?

When I was a lad between FE years I did agricultural work. I can only imagine the pay is better now but most of our budding pre-maddonas do not wish to be seen in a field unless it has a stage.

Similar situation locally in the New Forest, I passed two of my local stations yesterday, neither had any fuel. Got some last Monday, enough for a week.
I think that part of the problem is once the message gets out that a particular station has fuel, round come the panic buyers and empty it.
This happened last weekend at Brockenhurst, a delivery was made and six hours later all gone.

Meanwhile another development is that thieves are going round with drills and emptying fuel tanks by literally drilling a hole in the tank to steal the fuel. One such victim apparently boasted that she had a full tank, later her son came home by bicycle and disturbed the thieves, as well as the fuel, it will cost £800 to repair
Source Yahoo News

Yes I know someone who had their fuel tank ruined back in circa 2000. That is why I have been careful not to boast of having plenty of fuel in one car. Hopefully the thieves will ignore my old bangers anyway.

SHOCK HORROR! They've extended the visa scheme until March to try and make it a little more likely (emphasis on the word little) that some drivers might consider coming here to help out.

How long until that's extended and we decide that, maybe we should start to allow freedom of movement with the EU and to rejoin the customs union?

I reckon most of the drivers who left Britain to return home are not going to be enticed back here again. They do not want to keep moving. We have burnt our bridges.

If it's true that BP leaked rumours of a shortage because they'd gone to the Government to ask for visas to be issued (and had been told, no, why not pay people more) then it's clear big businesses want foreign labour back. I suspect that as long as the Tories are in power, they'll likely get what they want. Seems like BP got its wish, but didn't bank on the fact the foreign drivers just laughed at us (hence the extension, which I'm not convinced will work - but who knows?).

I can see these visas being expanded and extended, and if they keep on doing so, more and more industries will demand the same. Meanwhile the smaller firms can't cope with the customs issues (as Amazon and others can) so perhaps they'll be able to band together and convince the Government to consider a customs union.

I fully understand that paying people more and improving working conditions would be great, but do you believe that will ever happen (beyond some temporary stories of people earning bonuses/bounties)? We seem set to relax regulations and protections, not the other way around.

See below.

Not only was it supposed to but didn't, the benefits to the wider economy were short lived.

If the Government really want this acute shortage in lorry drivers to end without a major relaxation of visas to foreign drivers, they're going to have to intervene in the training capacity and mandate higher salaries if firms won't do this themselves (although at least some are). They need to announce investment in recruiting instructors, test invigilators and more on a scale large enough to make a significant shortage dent, not making tests easier and relieving car drivers from tests to tow caravans, which are both dangerous.

More long term, and perhaps in the spirit of this forum, investment needs to go into rail freight capacity to get more drivers off the roads, which while it won't be a magic bullet, everything that can help needs doing.

Currently they are just pushing the problem along. Paying more for drivers will only work if there is a supply of new drivers.

I don't think many on the Brexit side denied that. It was at the expense of working standards/pay, an exploding population number and all other issues associated with large scale immigration that was the problem.

I find it strange to think a sustainable way to run a country is to simply continually import labour, which aside from anything, is a drain on the countries they've come from. Meanwhile, we have our own people doing a myriad of non-jobs in the service economy after wasting x years at university doing useless degrees.

The problem is those who work in "better" jobs will not want the backward step into what the immigrant labour was prepared to do. And yes we mostly work in jobs now making anything useful.

When it comes to sustainability, we seem to have dug ourselves a hole which, if we carry on, will bit us in the backside hard eventually. Human history has shown that societies that lived unsustainably ultimately perished or at least suffered badly.

We are told that we need more working people because health care for elderly people (especially those with ongoing health conditions) and pensions is expensive, and the ratio of retired people to working people is increasing, generating an increasing tax burden on those working people. There is an upper limit to how much tax revenue the government can squeeze out of people (because wages are finite and a basic income required to live is greater than zero). The standard solution is to either increase the birth rate, which in a couple of decades leads to more young people entering the job market, or have people move here from abroad for work, who then contribute to tax revenue. The problem with this is those working people eventually become retired people, and you then need even more people in the workplace to generate tax revenue to support those retired people. What you end up with if you want to keep balancing social care with tax revenue is an increasing population. An increasing population is not sustainable because land space does not increase over time, so there is an upper limit to how high the population can get before undesirable things start happening (like, for example, massive house price inflation due to demand exceeding supply).

The current mantra of continunal economic growth is ultimately "wrong" because it is unsustainable as a result of resources being finite. The solution is a steady state economy, but that is an anathema to capitalism, so you need to ditch capitalism and create a completely new way of living that is compatible with resource consumption being balanced by resource creation. Good luck with that.


To be honest I wouldn't mind doing that if anyone was interested, alternatively I would like to talk to some of those who have been panic buying to try and understand their thinking, and I would be happy to explain why I don't panic buy.

Yes I agree capitalism and consumerism rely on growth. he problem is the planet is not getting any bigger. We really do need to ask ourselves if the planet deserves us.

The only way to manage with an ageing population is to put the retirement age up. After all if we are living longer then perhaps we are healthy enough to work longer ?. Or should we accept a lower standard of living. We spend a lot of money on things that use up the planets resources but are not totally necessary. I for one am working out if I can scrape early retirement as this Covid ridden work has driven me mad. I suspect a number of people over 60 who have been furloughed do not want to go back.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I saw a tanker today................................ it was a milk tanker. FFS.

Don't worry the 100 (!) drivers form the forces start work tomorrow. That will fix the non crisis.


Transition to corrupt, tin pot, third world country?

Indeed. Much prefer our gradual decline ( in or out of EU ) into a low wage and low productivity economy. OK and comfortable if you have capital or a decent secure job but other folk, the majority, might disagree.
South Bucks actually is not a non crisis area if a crisis is having no access to petrol. Not much fun when there is no public transport in the area and no petrol. A few miles on a bike maybe OK but not good if carrying shopping.

 

[reddragon]

We all have also to remember that as oil is being phased out, few banks will make a loan for a new oil / gas / coal field. That nobody will invest in a new refinery, oil terminal or such like in the UK. These assets have a 30-40 year asset life to repay! Equally who want to join an industry being phased out? Businesses do not like stranded assets!

In 10 years time half the cars on the road will be electric and most vans / buses. Most rural petrol stations will be gone and tanker driving a dying profession.

This crisis is a warning of the fact that some changes will happen faster than some might like on an uneven S curve.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So, the Army have been deployed to start delivering fuel to London and the South East from today?

 

[squizzler]

"Science behind panic buying"?

I must be a one in some million human being, as I never had the urge to panic buy last year during the fear the shelves would be empty, or now during the fear of being unable to get fuel. Perhaps my brain is wired differently to most of the human race, or it is some side effect of the brain damage I suffered six years ago.

I agree. My reflex would be not to bother using the car because of:

• anxiety over being able to get more petrol.
• Desire to be a good citizen and leave the petrol for those whose need is greater.

I think people will have obeyed a plea not to get petrol if it were made on the basis that supplies should be left for care workers and so forth. Most people are good citizens at heart and i suspect would make greater use of public transport instead of their own petrol powered conveyances - if anyone had actually bothered to ask. The reduction of fuel deliveries is only a few percentage points off what is needed, and a modest modal shift from motorcycles vans and motorcars onto public transport would have solved the problem immediately.

Of course they chose to go with attempts to boost supplies rather than request a demand reduction. Am I the only one concerned that requests for "calling in the army" to solve civilian problems is becoming normalised in British discourse?

 

[AlterEgo]

So, the Army have been deployed to start delivering fuel to London and the South East from today?

Yes. The RAF are also involved (not sure about the Royal Navy). Believe these are servicepeople already employed in the Driver trade in the Forces with the correct licence who have had a quick course in how to operate fuel tankers in a civilian context.

It's not really what people join the Forces to do - deliver fuel to Kent - so if anyone does spot one out and about I hope they offer to get them a coffee!

 

[SurreyCommuter]

Definitely not over in Surrey as most local stations that I passed (Supermarket & independent) doing my usual weekend activities were sold out which meant a bit of stress yesterday evening as I am supposed to be working in Cambridge tomorrow which would have proved challenging with a handful of litres left. Therefore I did something I could not previously have envisioned as I was up at 6.30am this morning to top up. Fortunately my local (Jet) station was taking delivery at that time so I joined 3 other cars in the queue to get some diesel without actually checking that it was diesel being delivered! Thankfully it didn't turn out to be a mistake although was only able to put in £30 of diesel meaning I'll be back to square one this time next week!

One thing I have noticed is the amount of seemingly unnecessary stuff that people lug around in their cars or on in the case of roof boxes. How much would people save if they only carried out what they needed. The only things I carry around regularly are an umbrella and in car phone charger which I don't think most people would consider excessive.

Living in Surrey I bet a fair bit of the shortage is caused by parents in their 4x4s/SUVs taking Tarquin and Jemima the 500 yards from home to school (and back) every day. Still I can't blame anyone other than myself for that given I chose to live in Surrey!

 

[reddragon]

I did a job in Upminster. Each morning this parent stuffed their little darlings into the car to drive to their school 400m away along a leafy suburban road. Due to a one way system they had to drive around the block so a total of maybe nearly a mile via busy main roads. As they always left late, they couldn't find anywhere to park so ended up parked in the road opposite their house 100m away.

It was pathetic and comical to watch but at least in those days few SUVs.

 

[JamesT]

The Sunday Telegraph already has a front page picture of Johnson arriving at the Midland Hotel in Manchester. Presumably some fast driving somewhere. Did he chose LNER to avoid arriving at Manchester in a train partly owned by an Italian company?

The boring answer is he was visiting a hospital in Leeds first that day, before then getting to Manchester.
But it’s more amusing to poke fun at the Tories and suggest they don’t know where trains go.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes. The RAF are also involved (not sure about the Royal Navy). Believe these are servicepeople already employed in the Driver trade in the Forces with the correct licence who have had a quick course in how to operate fuel tankers in a civilian context.

It's not really what people join the Forces to do - deliver fuel to Kent - so if anyone does spot one out and about I hope they offer to get them a coffee!

The RN doesn’t really have a mainstream driver branch, there are a very few people with HGV licences, but most full time driving in support roles has always been done by MOD civilians.

 

[ainsworth74]

The RN doesn’t really have a mainstream driver branch, there are a very few people with HGV licences, but most full time driving in support roles has always been done by MOD civilians.

Yes surely we call in the RN once we need people to sail the crude oil tankers?

 

[DarloRich]

Still issues round here with supply v demand

Yes surely we call in the RN once we need people to sail the crude oil tankers?

Surely we need the merchant navy for the oil tankers and the Royal Navy to deal with the submarines

 

[thenorthern]

Where I am fuel stations seem to have only one type of fuel available either unleaded or diesel but rarely both.

I have both stockpiled both stored in my garage just in case, in accordance with the regulation I should say.

 

[Harold Hill]

'Panic buying' is a lie. People NEED fuel to: get to work, visit elderly parents, get to hospital, and for many, many other reasons. To call it 'panic buying' is to blame the victim.

 

[gg1]

'Panic buying' is a lie. People NEED fuel to: get to work, visit elderly parents, get to hospital, and for many, many other reasons. To call it 'panic buying' is to blame the victim.

Those who really did need the fuel are the victims, those who had enough in their tanks to last a couple of weeks or more but decided to fill up 'just in case' are the panic buying idiots.

Of course we have no stats to know how many people fall into which category but considering the size and number of queues it's reasonable to assume the 2nd group outnumbered the first.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely we need the merchant navy for the oil tankers and the Royal Navy to deal with the submarines

That's surely only if the German's get rowdy?

 

[Crossover]

Situation normalising in West Yorkshire and many garages seem to be getting back to normal.

I visited our local Sainsburys yesterday and filled up whilst there (due to work, I usually need to fill up every week to week and a half) - 16 pumps and only half had a car at them (I expected to need to queue). I don't believe any had no fuel and diesel was 132.9p (the other garages are currently within the range of 137.9-141.9p, with few at the lower end of that!)

Whereas if everyone with a driveway (60-70% of us) bought an EV and could do most trips without charging on a public charger as 95% of us already do and charge at night, we already have the infrastructure.

In public there are already 3082 rapid charging stations with 11076 connectors versus 8000 petrol stations, in addition there's another 25000 fast chargers and of course every home & business has a power socket.

That somewhat ignores the fact that with fuel, you don't have to leave the nozzle in for 40 minutes to get a tank to 80% full...

 

[eMeS]

Fuel tankers. How do they discriminate between the different fuels they carry? Do they have different couplings? Or, simply rely on the driver knowing what's in which tank on his lorry - and which might be different on another lorry...