Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[gg1]

As I've said before, if EVs prevent people doing the latter, good.

Nothing wrong with that if the driving is being shared by more than one person, which is fairly likely for a family trip across Europe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing wrong with that if the driving is being shared by more than one person, which is fairly likely for a family trip across Europe.

If driving is being shared then you aren't doing it "non-stop"

But yes, if you are sharing driving then the one not driving is resting, provided you are not driving through the night having not adjusted to a night shift, something which is very dangerous and nobody should really be doing (and the coach industry does to far too great an extent).

 

[reddragon]

Nothing wrong with that if the driving is being shared by more than one person, which is fairly likely for a family trip across Europe.

Everything is wrong in that! Sitting in a car that long is just bad for you.

 

[cactustwirly]

If driving is being shared then you aren't doing it "non-stop"

But yes, if you are sharing driving then the one not driving is resting, provided you are not driving through the night having not adjusted to a night shift, something which is very dangerous and nobody should really be doing (and the coach industry does to far too great an extent).

But sometimes you have to drive at night, like getting to the airport for an early morning flight etc

 

[reddragon]

But sometimes you have to drive at night, like getting to the airport for an early morning flight etc

I made a decision years ago that trips & holidays should be enjoyable and the journey should also be so.

I banned early / late flights, get to the airport early to chill & use short stay or for longer trips a taxi / train, pay for queue jumping and cut out short breaks as they cause you more harm than benefit. Of course I cut out most flights altogether now exc when its the only way.

There is a high blood pressure epidemic and a diabetic epidemic in this country just because of such silly trips!

 

[gg1]

Everything is wrong in that! Sitting in a car that long is just bad for you.

Maybe if you do it every day but doing it in a once in a blue moon trip across Europe really doesn't do any harm. And it's not LITERALLY non stop, there will be the occasional stops for driver swaps and a toilet break when you can stretch your legs.

It's certainly better than spending 10 hours+ in a far more cramped airline seat which is probably far more common.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But sometimes you have to drive at night, like getting to the airport for an early morning flight etc

Sometimes you have to drive a short journey at night, yes, though you'd best advised to adjust your sleep/wake times a bit over the preceding days to ensure its safety. When I was a kid we tended to leave at 4am for family holidays to miss traffic on the way to the ferry, but my Dad would be in bed by 8pm the night before that drive to ensure he was awake enough for it.

A long journey at night (except if you've adjusted properly for a night shift i.e. waking up late afternoon) should always be avoided except in the absolute direst of emergencies, e.g. a family member on their deathbed in hospital. One should certainly never do that by choice, e.g. if you have a long drive to an airport for an early flight, book a hotel near the airport for the night before the flight.

If the trip is unaffordable or impractical without driving while excessively tired, it is infeasible and should not occur at all.

There is a high blood pressure epidemic and a diabetic epidemic in this country just because of such silly trips!

I think that's slightly hyperbolic - there certainly are such "epidemics" but they are caused by poor diet and insufficient exercise, not by one-off long drives, much as I am opposed to them for reasons of road safety.

 

[reddragon]

reddragon said:
There is a high blood pressure epidemic and a diabetic epidemic in this country just because of such silly trips!

I think that's slightly hyperbolic - there certainly are such "epidemics" but they are caused by poor diet and insufficient exercise, not by one-off long drives, much as I am opposed to them for reasons of road safety.

I know someone who always drives a night to "avoid the traffic" and every other weekend jets of to another destination on his tick list. He eats well and is active but its caused him lots of health issues.

Another who did the same died of DVT from long trips sitting down, an unspoken consequence of these long trips.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know someone who always drives a night to "avoid the traffic" and every other weekend jets of to another destination on his tick list. He eats well and is active but its caused him lots of health issues.

Certainly done often lack of sleep is a serious health hazard, so if he's doing it every other weekend I would agree, as well as the hazards posed to other road users.

Another who did the same died of DVT from long trips sitting down, an unspoken consequence of these long trips.

That's quite sobering as I had DVT and PE last year, which was not fun at all. It can be caused by sitting down for a long time, but is more an issue on flights because of dehydration due to the very dry air (which the B787 solves) and because you can't have a walk round as easily, plus the very cramped seating compared with a car (if your car is cramped, you really should change it). If it was common purely because of sitting down for a long time, there'd be an epidemic of it in office workers (who make up most of the workforce), and there isn't. However it has many possible other causes, in my case likely a knee trauma many years ago having damaged blood vessels.

 

[trebor79]

Or you could tow a trailer carrying a motor generator set and charge whilst moving.

That rather defeats the purpose of an EV! You'd just drive a plug-in hybrid instead.

 

[reddragon]

That rather defeats the purpose of an EV! You'd just drive a plug-in hybrid instead.

Early EV adopters took a Genny on long trips for the charging gaps with their short ranges. Not needed these days!

The longest range EV is now 520 miles. Bladder range anyone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or you could tow a trailer carrying a motor generator set and charge whilst moving.

I'm almost certain Top Gear did that as a joke

 

[trebor79]

The longest range EV is now 520 miles. Bladder range anyone?

Wow! which vehicle is that? That's a bit overkill IMO - I think somewhere around 300 miles is likely to be the sweet spot for utility/affordability ratio.

 

[reddragon]

Wow! which vehicle is that? That's a bit overkill IMO - I think somewhere around 300 miles is likely to be the sweet spot for utility/affordability ratio.

Its the Lucid Air

Lucid Air electric car: 520-mile EPA range rating ousts Tesla from top spot

Lucid's 520-mile range rating—from a 113-kwh battery pack—will likely make it the longest-range EV on the market and one of the most efficient.

www.greencarreports.com

In answer to an earlier poster saying he would only buy German, this report on a BMW explains why not!

Spoiler

 

[Hadleywood]

Just created a new thread to discuss this as I think it's quite interesting.


Indeed. Governments and car manufacturers have been foolish in the way they have portrayed electric cars as a "knight in shining armour" that will solve transport issues.
They solve point-of-use emissions, and reduce carbon footprint by means of whatever proportion of the national grid's generation comes from renewables, but they are still inefficient in terms of space and still use resources to produce, especially the batteries which are probably worse than petrol engines. They also still cause a lot of noise and road building/maintainence is still disruptive. And they're still expensive, more so than petrol cars.

Society needs to accept that while EVs are definitely an improvement they are NOT the be-all and end-all of environmentally friendly travel. EVs undoubtedly have a place, outside of cities and towns where providing public transport to everyone would be impractical. But we still need to be pushing people towards public transport where possible, especially if we're also electrifying that public transport. And - even more importantly - walking and cycling.

Going back to the original question, i have sat back for some weeks now and read the somewhat heated responses on both sides, as well as the more thought out ones and i am still firmly in the corner of yes, electric for city use, the weekly shop or school run; BUT petrol power for the car enthusiast, before we are controlled so much it is illegal to have such a wonderful car. I ought to have shares in super unleaded the way my Dodge drinks it and/but it still brightens my day every single time i drive it or even just start it. A massive V10 with a sports exhaust and no turbos revving to 7,250 rpm is just heaven-sent. 2,000 miles a year is all it does on average. I've just invested in another classic sports car, a restored and beautiful 1974 Chevvy Sting Ray 7.4 litre V8 pushrod. Just 56,000 mostly sunny Nevadan miles from new and way less than the price of a new VW Golf electric. Easy choice!
I asked people on a car forum i frequent a question last week. If you won a car to own, run and use for 3 years and had to choose between a Tesla electric sports car and a Ferrari 5.5 litre V12 coupe which would it be? OK it only got 196 replies, but just FIVE, yes FIVE said the electric car. A very telling result.
So THERE we have it pretty much sewn up. Yes electric cars by law one day sadly, yes electric cars for quietness and chores, but a screaming petrol sports car for fun, excitement, sound, character, street cred., everything else that gives motoring pleasure.

 

[seagull]

I do not agree.

The Nissan LEAF has a short range, slow rapid charging and the inability to be rapid chargers multiple times. I didn't stop me driving a 40Kw LEAF to Portugal, but it did take longer than I would have wanted. 11 instead of 8 hours.

There are now many EVs with long ranges that are affordable as a new car.

To be fair I did say in my original post that the EVangelists would likely not agree.
But the reality is not quite (yet) as good as the theory in terms of EV use, that is a fact borne out by my own experience so far, and is not intended as a criticism of those pushing for greater adoption of the EV at all, but merely a reflection on why it is that there is still much progress to be made.

 

[reddragon]

Going back to the original question, i have sat back for some weeks now and read the somewhat heated responses on both sides, as well as the more thought out ones and i am still firmly in the corner of yes, electric for city use, the weekly shop or school run; BUT petrol power for the car enthusiast, before we are controlled so much it is illegal to have such a wonderful car. I ought to have shares in super unleaded the way my Dodge drinks it and/but it still brightens my day every single time i drive it or even just start it. A massive V10 with a sports exhaust and no turbos revving to 7,250 rpm is just heaven-sent. 2,000 miles a year is all it does on average. I've just invested in another classic sports car, a restored and beautiful 1974 Chevvy Sting Ray 7.4 litre V8 pushrod. Just 56,000 mostly sunny Nevadan miles from new and way less than the price of a new VW Golf electric. Easy choice!
I asked people on a car forum i frequent a question last week. If you won a car to own, run and use for 3 years and had to choose between a Tesla electric sports car and a Ferrari 5.5 litre V12 coupe which would it be? OK it only got 196 replies, but just FIVE, yes FIVE said the electric car. A very telling result.
So THERE we have it pretty much sewn up. Yes electric cars by law one day sadly, yes electric cars for quietness and chores, but a screaming petrol sports car for fun, excitement, sound, character, street cred., everything else that gives motoring pleasure.

You would get that for a car club!

In the utopian world of traffic free roads, without speed limits or petrol costs a car that cannot carry shopping, kids, do speed humps or much else is little other than a play thing.

Given the choice between a Ferrari or a Rimac, the answer would have been different

To be fair I did say in my original post that the EVangelists would likely not agree.
But the reality is not quite (yet) as good as the theory in terms of EV use, that is a fact borne out by my own experience so far, and is not intended as a criticism of those pushing for greater adoption of the EV at all, but merely a reflection on why it is that there is still much progress to be made.

To be fair to you, the EV world is moving so fast that a 1 year old model is old tech so you would have got that impression.

 

[paul1609]

If driving is being shared then you aren't doing it "non-stop"

But yes, if you are sharing driving then the one not driving is resting, provided you are not driving through the night having not adjusted to a night shift, something which is very dangerous and nobody should really be doing (and the coach industry does to far too great an extent).

The coach industry more or less everywhere in Europe and the UK are complying with the driving hours that are prescribed for professional drivers by the EU. This is already very heavily regulated. That's very different from what you feel safe with as an amateur driver having generally had one skills asessment several years ago and by and large no medical assessment at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The coach industry more or less everywhere in Europe and the UK are complying with the driving hours that are prescribed for professional drivers by the EU. This is already very heavily regulated. That's very different from what you feel safe with as an amateur driver having generally had one skills asessment several years ago and by and large no medical assessment at all.

I certainly know someone who has worked in the bus and coach industry who will not use an overnight tour coach (as distinct from scheduled coaches) because he has seen how little sleep those drivers get when not on a proper shift pattern. So it is not an empty concern.

 

[seagull]

To be fair to you, the EV world is moving so fast that a 1 year old model is old tech so you would have got that impression.

Indeed so, luckily I have another year or so on my finance (non-EV) car before I'll be in a position to have to carefully consider my next vehicle, and I'm hoping during that time the improvements continue such that the decision will be made very easy Probably made easier still by virtue of the fact that my work commute will hopefully have halved in distance.

 

[reddragon]

Indeed so, luckily I have another year or so on my finance (non-EV) car before I'll be in a position to have to carefully consider my next vehicle, and I'm hoping during that time the improvements continue such that the decision will be made very easy Probably made easier still by virtue of the fact that my work commute will hopefully have halved in distance.

It is easy today to hack 100 miles each way without a charge on an EV. In the winter you will need to slow down a bit and only have the heating on 16C & use heated seats when the weather is really cold / wet.

The amount of imminent battery development is amazing. The BYD (China again) blade batteries could be game changing!

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe if you do it every day but doing it in a once in a blue moon trip across Europe really doesn't do any harm. And it's not LITERALLY non stop, there will be the occasional stops for driver swaps and a toilet break when you can stretch your legs.

It's certainly better than spending 10 hours+ in a far more cramped airline seat which is probably far more common.

I can’t imagine there is any more than 0.01% of the car owning population who have ever driven a trip of 600miles + without stopping for at least 45 minutes. I’ve driven some silly distances in a day (to Hertfordshire from Meribel, Prague, Spain, Grenoble, Aviemore), some on my own, and some with others. Even with others we have needed to stop for an hour or more for a break from the motorway.

I asked people on a car forum i frequent a question last week. If you won a car to own, run and use for 3 years and had to choose between a Tesla electric sports car and a Ferrari 5.5 litre V12 coupe which would it be? OK it only got 196 replies, but just FIVE, yes FIVE said the electric car. A very telling result.

This is market research of the very worst kind.

The Tesla is £75k new and although quick is nothing compared to the 812, which costs quarter of a million. To be honest I’m surprised that 5 people chose the Tesla.

Go back and ask them: “if you won a car to own, run and use for 3 years and had to choose between a Porsche Taycan Turbo S or a Nissan Juke, which would it be?”

Incidentally I saw a Corvette Stingray on the road near Potters a Bar last Sunday, was that you out for a drive?

 

[reddragon]

This is market research of the very worst kind.

The Tesla is £75k new and although quick is nothing compared to the 812 (which costs quarter of a million. To be honest I’m surprised that 5 people chose the Tesla.

Go back and ask them: “if you won a car to own, run and use for 3 years and had to choose between a Porsche Taycan Turbo S or a Nissan Juke, which would it be?”

Like button pressed!

 

[XAM2175]

Go back and ask them: “if you won a car to own, run and use for 3 years and had to choose between a Porsche Taycan Turbo S or a Nissan Juke, which would it be?”

Tax and insurance not included, obviously

 

[Bald Rick]

Tax and insurance not included, obviously

I think Nissan Jukes should be taxed to the hilt. Dreadful cars that seem to attract dreadful drivers.

 

[gg1]

I can’t imagine there is any more than 0.01% of the car owning population who have ever driven a trip of 600miles + without stopping for at least 45 minutes.

Probably correct, but no-one mentioned driving 600 miles. The conversation was about splitting a 6 hour drive between 2 people, which realistically is 3-400 miles, and likely closer to the lower end of that range.

 

[Bald Rick]

The conversation was about splitting a 6 hour drive between 2 people, which realistically is 3-400 miles, and likely closer to the lower end of that range.

But 300 miles is within a full charge range of many EVs. And easily done in 4 hours (on the continent, of course).

 

[gg1]

But 300 miles is within a full charge range of many EVs.

Again, correct but not relevant to the conversation which was about doing a 6 hour drive (almost) non stop by splitting the driving between 2 people.

 

[Bald Rick]

Again, correct but not relevant to the conversation which was about doing a 6 hour drive (almost) non stop by splitting the driving between 2 people.

But as I said, very few people do that.

 

[gg1]

But as I said, very few people do that.

Firstly you said very few people do a 600 mile drive non stop, which is clearly an awful lot more than 6 hours.

Secondly, whether or not many people actually do drive for that amount of time is largely irrelevant to the conversation which is about the feasibility of doing so, and splitting the journey between 2 people.