• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

Status
Not open for further replies.

Nicholas43

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2011
Messages
514
It seems we do know. Radio Solent announced on the 1600 news that the RAIB has said the cause was that following a brake application by Driver the train lost adhesion and was unable to stop in time.
Not quite. According to @Phil H 's most helpful and timely post #828, Andrew Hall of RAIB stated that "the most likely cause ... was wheelslide, almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the wheels and the track. We are continuing to pursue this as a line of investigation amongst others." [my italics]
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,759
Our PSB has some special instructions at a couple of junctions during the leaf fall period, where we are not allowed to allow a train up to certain signals if there is a train routed through the junction ahead of it,
 

davews

Member
Joined
24 Apr 2021
Messages
653
Location
Bracknell
Similar to Virginia Water October 2000:

The accident happened last Thursday morning when the 08.21 Weybridge to Staines train derailed at Virginia Water on a stretch of track prone to wheel skidding caused by leaves.
The train had passed a signal at danger before coming off the track on a set of points set against it. Investigators are trying to establish whether it failed to stop because it had skidded on leaves.
No-one was injured although the estimated 200 passengers were badly shaken. A collision with another train was narrowly avoided when signals and points were switched just before the derailment.

Can't find an official report on this one but similar set of points.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Efini92

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,752
Indeed.
I'm not familiar with the topography of that area, I wonder if you can see the junction from the protecting signal? I think I read that there's a bit of a curve?

Now we know that it was a SPAD I'm wondering if the preceding signal (presumably a yellow) had a TPWS speed limit? I know that all this will be examined in forensic detail by RAIB but I will be interested to know how long the train was sliding for with the brakes on.
What do you mean by tpws speed limit? OSS loops?
 

w0033944

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2011
Messages
552
Location
Norfolk
Now that the RAIB have spoken, I will share my thoughts about Sunday:

NB: I have no connection to the railway, nor do I claim to be any sort of expert in matters related to this.

I was in Salisbury on Sunday. My in laws live about 1/4 mile from the crash site. I live about 10 miles to the south. Between 8.15 and 8.30am the area experienced a "sting jet", which is a phenomenon of localised extremely strong winds off the back of a frontal storm system. We had gusts of up to 80mph. Trees were stripped of their leaves, and roads impassable. On my journey up the A338, I encountered 6 fallen trees across the road. There was so much leaf fall on the road, stopping was hazardous.

Imagine this on the rails. All day long trains would have been compacting this leaf fall. We now know what the result was.
Yes, there was a secondary low that developed and, as you say, generated a sting jet in a swathe from the south coast to Lincolnshire. There are reports of a short-lived spin-up tornado from this jet in Northants later in the day.
 

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
9,258
Location
Yorkshire
Yes, that is one thing to be thankful for, it's only luck that there weren't two trains crossing over when the SWR train ran by, it could have been so much worse. I'm also thinking that if you're going to hit another train, then a slow speed side swipe and then the tunnel walls to keep the carriages more or less upright is preferable to ploughing down an embankment into God knows what as in Carmont.
Possibly, yes. It is about energy disspitation. A car hitting a wall/tree at 70mph is very different to one barrel rolling a few times (at a basic level, obviously accounting for a lot of other variables)
 
Joined
10 Feb 2016
Messages
101
What do you mean by tpws speed limit? OSS loops?

Ah, now you're asking me, I retired before such things came in.
As such not familiar with the intricacies of TPWS but I thought that at certain signals it can check the speed of approach of the train and if it's too fast will apply the brakes
 

BrianW

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2017
Messages
1,479
Now that the RAIB have spoken, I will share my thoughts about Sunday:

NB: I have no connection to the railway, nor do I claim to be any sort of expert in matters related to this.

I was in Salisbury on Sunday. My in laws live about 1/4 mile from the crash site. I live about 10 miles to the south. Between 8.15 and 8.30am the area experienced a "sting jet", which is a phenomenon of localised extremely strong winds off the back of a frontal storm system. We had gusts of up to 80mph. Trees were stripped of their leaves, and roads impassable. On my journey up the A338, I encountered 6 fallen trees across the road. There was so much leaf fall on the road, stopping was hazardous.

Imagine this on the rails. All day long trains would have been compacting this leaf fall. We now know what the result was.
Extreme/ adverse weather conditions ( a la Carmont?):

 

Efini92

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,752
Ah, now you're asking me, I retired before such things came in.
As such not familiar with the intricacies of TPWS but I thought that at certain signals it can check the speed of approach of the train and if it's too fast will apply the brakes
I’d imagine at that location the junction signal will have tpws and there will be OSS on approach to it. I doubt the signal that was showing the yellow would have anything as the line speed is only 50 mph (I don’t sign the route though so happy to be corrected).
If the train was already in a slide the TPWS would’ve been useless anyway.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,145
Location
Airedale
Once the driver of the SWR train realised that it probably wasn't going to stop at the protecting signal if he/she then made a REC the GWR driver would surely receive it and stop that train, thus making a collision more likely?
A good point, and reason for not making the call (we don't know either way).
In this case, the trains seem to have been so close together at the junction (going by the now-deleted times on RTT which may only have been interpolated) that it might have made no difference.

Incidentally I would surmise that the GW was still moving when the collision occurred, and the bang would account for people thinking it had hit something when in fact it had been hit.
 

adsbenham

New Member
Joined
2 Nov 2021
Messages
2
Location
Salisbury
One little question that's been bugging me the whole thread: why is it called Salisbury Tunnel Junction when the tunnel itself is called Fisherton Tunnel?

I realise it's probably just some kind of historical anomaly but I wondered if there was an actual definite reason/explanation.
Entering the tunnel from the east there is a name board "Salisbury Tunnel". Entering it from the west (I.e. from the station) there is a name board "Fisherton Tunnel". I guess both names are valid ?
 

Tio Terry

Member
Joined
2 May 2014
Messages
1,178
Location
Spain
Now that we have a preliminary RAIB report that points at railhead condition being the probable cause - although other possibilities are being investigated - I do hope there is not a sudden knee jerk reaction resulting in massive vegetation clearance. There needs to be site specific risk assessments carried out, opinions vary on the effectiveness of tree roots on bank stability, it's not something I profess to know much about, but the railway does not need more Carmont like situations with landslips which may be caused by deforestation leading to embankment and cutting destabilisation.
 

westcoaster

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2006
Messages
4,241
Location
DTOS A or B
thank you for posting the Raib preliminary findings.

what happened is what I had thought had happened.

Also would this not be a SPAR ( obviously dependant on where the driver applied the brakes, and how the WSP (wheel slip protection) acted).
 

bengley

Established Member
Joined
18 May 2008
Messages
1,845
Ah, now you're asking me, I retired before such things came in.
As such not familiar with the intricacies of TPWS but I thought that at certain signals it can check the speed of approach of the train and if it's too fast will apply the brakes
The signal does have TPWS overspeed sensors and they are set at 34.9mph

Now that we have a preliminary RAIB report that points at railhead condition being the probable cause - although other possibilities are being investigated - I do hope there is not a sudden knee jerk reaction resulting in massive vegetation clearance. There needs to be site specific risk assessments carried out, opinions vary on the effectiveness of tree roots on bank stability, it's not something I profess to know much about, but the railway does not need more Carmont like situations with landslips which may be caused by deforestation leading to embankment and cutting destabilisation.
Carmont was caused by a slipped man made drainage channel
 

Tio Terry

Member
Joined
2 May 2014
Messages
1,178
Location
Spain
Carmont was caused by a slipped man made drainage channel
All the more reason for a site specific risk assessment. Anything that might destabilise an existing site, including maybe clearing out a blocked drain, needs to be adequately assessed by somebody suitably qualified.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,407
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
Now that we have a preliminary RAIB report that points at railhead condition being the probable cause - although other possibilities are being investigated - I do hope there is not a sudden knee jerk reaction resulting in massive vegetation clearance. There needs to be site specific risk assessments carried out, opinions vary on the effectiveness of tree roots on bank stability, it's not something I profess to know much about, but the railway does not need more Carmont like situations with landslips which may be caused by deforestation leading to embankment and cutting destabilisation.
Quite. I have just heard the police announcement on the radio that they have decided that wheel slide was almost certainly the cause. I think I read up-thread that the RHTT had not operated the day/night before? If so, this makes it even less appropriate for a 'knee-jerk'. However, even if an RHTT had passed only, say, an hour before, it's still easily possible for clouds of leaves to fall and be plastered to the rails by heavy rain, so the failure to operate one RHTT cannot necessarily be relied upon as the whole cause. The timing of the two trains seems especially unlucky - a few seconds either way would probably have avoided the impact.
 
Last edited:

Dave W

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2019
Messages
592
Location
North London

I don't know if this is a RHTT, but it has the timetable characteristics of other trains I know that are... Whatever it was, it was due along the down line from Andover about 90 minutes before the incident, but appears to have been cancelled.
 

AndyPJG

Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
424
Not quite. According to @Phil H 's most helpful and timely post #828, Andrew Hall of RAIB stated that "the most likely cause ... was wheelslide, almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the wheels and the track. We are continuing to pursue this as a line of investigation amongst others." [my italics]
including the running of RHTT trains, and management of the consequences of them not running as was alluded to upthread.
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
7,909
Location
Dalton GA USA & Preston Lancs
I’m sure the media will scream and point fingers about this incident despite the contradiction with their long-term stance of leaves on the line being a pathetic and unjustifiable excuse for delays. Maybe even shoehorn an attack on the ‘green agenda’ into articles too. Don‘t expect consistency.
Of this I have no doubt whatsoever sadly.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
2,456
Location
SW London
and this https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10873585803

These pictures from 50 years ago are worth 2000 words.
We can at least be thankful that one of those wasn't on the front of the Waterloo train - the consequences for passengers on the other train (especially if it had been Mark 1 stock) would have been much more severe.

That said, older stock could take some impacts. This was the consequence of a SPAD at Hampton Court Junction (Surbiton) in 1979
4 SUB accident Hampton Court junction - Bing images
No fatalities, and again two trains coming together at a junction, but no tunnel walls to contain them this time. The lead coach of this train hit the sixth coach of the other one, which was CIG/VEP formation. (That was partially derailed and damaged the parapet of a bridge which fell into the road below). Of the four units involved, only the leading SUB was written off - and even that probably could have been repaired if the class were not already being phased out at the time
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
5,819
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
Entering the tunnel from the east there is a name board "Salisbury Tunnel". Entering it from the west (I.e. from the station) there is a name board "Fisherton Tunnel". I guess both names are valid ?
IIRC, the nameboard in the 'vee' of the junction reads "Salisbury Tunnel Junction", which is the correct name of the junction; whereas the nameboard at the Western end of the tunnel reads 'Fisherton Tunnel' - which is the correct name of the tunnel.
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
8,503
Location
Up the creek
Salisbury Tunnel Junction is the actual junction between the Andover and Romsey lines: that was the name of the box in the vee that I worked. The tunnel itself is officially Fisherton Tunnel, but it was often called Salisbury Tunnel.
 

QueensCurve

Established Member
Joined
22 Dec 2014
Messages
1,914
Yes, that is one thing to be thankful for, it's only luck that there weren't two trains crossing over when the SWR train ran by, it could have been so much worse. I'm also thinking that if you're going to hit another train, then a slow speed side swipe and then the tunnel walls to keep the carriages more or less upright is preferable to ploughing down an embankment into God knows what as in Carmont.
The severity of the Carmont derailment followed from the train having hit the bridge parapet at speed. I note from the post-reinstatement images that guard-rails are now fitted in the four-foot across the bridge and on the approaches to it where there were none previously.
 

BoroAndy

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
223
Location
Scarborough
Just wondering what speed the SWR was doing approaching the red signal, seems incredible it slipped into the tunnel. Sounds like a car going downhill on ice...... SCARY. Hope the driver is doing OK.
 

Need2

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2016
Messages
595
thank you for posting the Raib preliminary findings.

what happened is what I had thought had happened.

Also would this not be a SPAR ( obviously dependant on where the driver applied the brakes, and how the WSP (wheel slip protection) acted).
Nope, it’s a spad.
The signal was set at danger for a reason and had not been ‘put back’ to red.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Just wondering what speed the SWR was doing approaching the red signal, seems incredible it slipped into the tunnel. Sounds like a car going downhill on ice...... SCARY. Hope the driver is doing OK.

I personally experienced (as a passenger) the Wheelslip Protection briefly kicking in braking into Grantham on an LNER 801 on a wet morning earlier in the year. Even as a passenger it was pretty...whoa.

Thankfully, we stopped safely at Grantham as planned.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,626
I personally experienced (as a passenger) the Wheelslip Protection briefly kicking in braking into Grantham on an LNER 801 on a wet morning earlier in the year. Even as a passenger it was pretty...whoa.

Thankfully, we stopped safely at Grantham as planned.
It kicks in all the time on 158s at this time of year. It can be a bit alarming if you're not used to it, you get a lot of juddering, hissing and vibrating.
 

21C101

Established Member
Joined
19 Jul 2014
Messages
2,557
I hate to prick the bubble of this tree bashing festival but if you look at the photo posted a few posts earlier

Link https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10873585803

you can see from the photo that by the time the SWR train had passed under the road bridge and entered the now tree infested cutting with junction and tunnel entrance, it will already have passed the red signal in question.

The mile or so that the train would have been braking on, from roughly the A30 overbridge at Hampton Inn to the signal in question is mostly embankment/level ground level and, as a look at google maps shows, not greatly tree or bush infested.

The RAIB have stated that wheelslide is a factor, but have not stated it is the root cause.

There are also other mitigations available for wheelslide other than a chainsaw orgy (see the clasp brakes on Thameslink class 700s for an example).
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,701
Also another myth; trees CAN be worked on, trimmed or cut down at any time of year as long as the area being worked on has been identified as clear of nesting birds by a licensed environmental contractor.

Certainly round where I am there has been a lot of tree clearance over the summer (preparation for installation of OLE I presume), apart from the ones with "police tape" round them and big signs warning of nesting birds.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top