Transport for Wales 769's

[Wyrleybart]

The thing is TfW have nine of these contraptions and Northerm have eight. TfW seem to allocate mostly three or four a day. In the last week or so Northern manage three or four. Between those two TOCs there are significantly more units sat idle, presumably under repair, than there are in service earning their corn. But that is the point, the units have been handed over by Wabtec and Porterbrook to the TOCs. so you might assume Porterbrook are receiving lease payments for them.

I am interested to see how GWR's fleet will prove, bearing in mind they should use AC DC and diesel, whereas the TfW units are effectively DEMUs

 

[craigybagel]

How many 197s are being released by the increased LHCS fleet? Enough to get rid of all the quirky old tat?

In theory none, as the increased LHCS fleet is being used to release 170s instead, which are no longer planned to stay with the franchise.

The 769s stay was always intended to be a temporary one anyway, released from the Rhymney Valley by the Stadler Tri-modes. LHCS shouldn't come into it - unless there's some form of cascade with whatever new stock arrives first that allows the 769s to be removed earlier than planned.

Given how TfW have shown a fair degree of flexibility in the past with their plans, I wouldn't put it past them to try and find a way to remove the need for 769s sooner than planned.

 

[Bikeman78]

In theory none, as the increased LHCS fleet is being used to release 170s instead, which are no longer planned to stay with the franchise.

I wonder when the lease on the 170s expires? Getting rid of them before the 769s would be crazy.

The thing is TfW have nine of these contraptions and Northerm have eight.

To be pedantic, TfW only has eight at the moment. I think the last one is 769426 but I don't know where it is.

 

[Caaardiff]

There's no scope for 150s to work Rhymney as they are desperately needed for the Taf lines. That being said they would only be needed for strengthening of current services which are either booked 2 car or shortformed to 2 car, but these 2 car services are very busy.

The only short term viable option is 197s displacing units to free up 153s (Chester - Liverpool and Crewe) firstly, then 153s from West Wales once clearance and crew training starts. But even that is several months away.

The next option as already suggested is 231s to work Rhymney line before the 756 arrives. They are pretty much the same traction so makes sense if times are desperate.

I doubt the 170 leases can be extended as EMR are desperate for them. TfW would need to find an alternative to cover the 170/231 work until the 756s arrive. I'm sure there will be some 175s freed up eventually once the 197s are bedded in in the North.

I cant see TfW pulling the 769 fleet completely. What I do think will happen is they will have fewer out each day and will have to deal with the failures as they arise.
Even dropping it to just 2 in use each day might help reliability.

 

[Wyrleybart]

There's no scope for 150s to work Rhymney as they are desperately needed for the Taf lines. That being said they would only be needed for strengthening of current services which are either booked 2 car or shortformed to 2 car, but these 2 car services are very busy.

The only short term viable option is 197s displacing units to free up 153s (Chester - Liverpool and Crewe) firstly, then 153s from West Wales once clearance and crew training starts. But even that is several months away.

The next option as already suggested is 231s to work Rhymney line before the 756 arrives. They are pretty much the same traction so makes sense if times are desperate.

I doubt the 170 leases can be extended as EMR are desperate for them. TfW would need to find an alternative to cover the 170/231 work until the 756s arrive. I'm sure there will be some 175s freed up eventually once the 197s are bedded in in the North.

I cant see TfW pulling the 769 fleet completely. What I do think will happen is they will have fewer out each day and will have to deal with the failures as they arise.
Even dropping it to just 2 in use each day might help reliability.

The whole DMU rolling stock procurement thing has gone a little sideways hasn't it. WMR class 196s parked up at Bletchley because Tyseley can't cope. Pity DfT couldn't temporarily send some WMR 196s to Northern with a quick course for some crew trained on 195s on maybe one particular route. Then cascade to send a few 150s to Cardiff on a temporary basis.
There would need to be an admission that the 769s are just not reliable enough though, which I can't say will ever happen.

Has anyone done any analysis on the TfW 769 failures becuase they all seem to occur in the same area. I am sure I read one suggestion was that high voltage power lines strung over the route may be causing issues, fsar fetched I know.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I wonder when the lease on the 170s expires? Getting rid of them before the 769s would be crazy.

The TfW website has/had some train specification documents somewhere listing all sorts of details like number of seats etc. One of those details is the lease end dates - all subject to haved changed since the franchise was transferred to the Operator Of Last Resort of course but here's what they were:

• Class 175: 31/05/2022
• Class 153: 31/10/2022
• Class 158: 31/10/2022
• Class 150: 31/12/2023
• Class 197 (declassified first class): 31/12/2024
• Class 230: 16/10/2033
• Class 197: 16/10/2033
• Class 170: 16/10/2033 + [REDACTED]

It appears that the class 170s actually had the longest lease of any fleet, being leased beyond the end of the KeolisAmey franchise. Perhaps the transfer of the 170s away from TfW is in fact a sublease.

The only short term viable option is 197s displacing units to free up 153s (Chester - Liverpool and Crewe) firstly, then 153s from West Wales once clearance and crew training starts. But even that is several months away.

197s working Conwy Valley and Manchester-Llandudno would also cascade units southwards, with Manchester-Llandudno releasing 175s which could be used to release 153s from S.W. Wales if TfW are desperate for them without needing 197 clearance or crew training in the south.

The next option as already suggested is 231s to work Rhymney line before the 756 arrives. They are pretty much the same traction so makes sense if times are desperate.

Yes, it seems to make sense, the biggest issue is probably crew trainning unless 231s and 756s are similar enough that no re-training would be needed to move from signing 231s to signing 756s. Also, what are the timescales for 231s arriving compared to 756s?

 

[Greybeard33]

The thing is TfW have nine of these contraptions and Northerm have eight. TfW seem to allocate mostly three or four a day. In the last week or so Northern manage three or four. Between those two TOCs there are significantly more units sat idle, presumably under repair, than there are in service earning their corn. But that is the point, the units have been handed over by Wabtec and Porterbrook to the TOCs. so you might assume Porterbrook are receiving lease payments for them.

I am interested to see how GWR's fleet will prove, bearing in mind they should use AC DC and diesel, whereas the TfW units are effectively DEMUs

Northern is currently managing to keep three out of eight 769s in service most days. But I understand a further two units are in daily use for crew training and are available to rescue a failed unit when required (the training includes coupling exercises, hence the need for two units). Whereas TfW seems to rely on the Thunderbird 37 for rescues.

So Northern availability is perhaps a little better than TfW's, although still dire.

 

[PaulHarding150]

The TfW website has/had some train specification documents somewhere listing all sorts of details like number of seats etc. One of those details is the lease end dates - all subject to haved changed since the franchise was transferred to the Operator Of Last Resort of course but here's what they were:

• Class 175: 31/05/2022

I hadn't realised the 175's lease was up so soon.

Given the unreliable nature of a lot of the stock (inc but not limited to the 769s) and the timescale involved for bring in and training drivers on new units, there must be a need to extend this lease surely? And that's not to mention the refit the 175s have barley just gone through.

 

[Bob Price]

Think the 175's have been identified for use elsewhere so the leasing company would have been involved with their upgrade. Can't see TfW spending money on stock which they will loose a year later.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

The latest wibble doing the rounds is the use of 197s on the Wrexham Bidston line to free up 150s should the 230s fail to hit their next target date or indeed any date..

 

[PHILIPE]

Think the 175's have been identified for use elsewhere so the leasing company would have been involved with their upgrade. Can't see TfW spending money on stock which they will loose a year later.

It is a franchise commitment that units must have a re-paint after a certain length of time.

 

[PaulHarding150]

A repaint and a refit in TfW/WG Colours?

Regardless of the complexities of the franchising system you surley must agree with me that doing all this work (some of which is going on today) and then handing them back next year is a poor use of taxpayers money and a poor decision by the Welsh Govt to do it now and not (for example) five-six years ago?

These units have been in need of some TLC for a while and WG have paid above and beyond to refurbish units even back in the ATW days.

 

[Cardiff123]

Why is there a detailed discussion taking place about 175s in the TfW 769 thread? This thread seems to have gone wildly off-topic

 

[craigybagel]

Why is there a detailed discussion taking place about 175s in the TfW 769 thread? This thread seems to have gone wildly off-topic

To be fair, the discussion was around whether the 175s could stay with TfW longer than planned so as to allow an internal cascade to see off the 769s early. If the 175s are already spoken for, this won't be possible.

However, the future for the 175s is one of the railways great mysteries.

 

[anthony263]

To be fair, the discussion was around whether the 175s could stay with TfW longer than planned so as to allow an internal cascade to see off the 769s early. If the 175s are already spoken for, this won't be possible.

However, the future for the 175s is one of the railways great mysteries.

I've thought east-west rail or GWR. Apart from them too im at a loss unless Northern takes them

 

[PHILIPE]

To be fair, the discussion was around whether the 175s could stay with TfW longer than planned so as to allow an internal cascade to see off the 769s early. If the 175s are already spoken for, this won't be possible.

However, the future for the 175s is one of the railways great mysteries.

As things are we already have a 175 Speculation thread here but overall there is no connection with the 769 disaster

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-175-future-speculation.218095/page-8

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is to specifically discuss Transport for Wales 769s.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else they are welcome to use another existing thread or create a new one if needs be.

thanks

 

[Bikeman78]

To be fair, the discussion was around whether the 175s could stay with TfW longer than planned so as to allow an internal cascade to see off the 769s early. If the 175s are already spoken for, this won't be possible.

However, the future for the 175s is one of the railways great mysteries.

I think that if the class 175s go off lease next May then the lack of 769s will be the least of TfW's worries!

 

[Kite159]

I noticed only 1 example made it out on Saturday (769002) and only 769445 made it out today [unless I missed one of the morning peak specials which goes straight to the depot after arriving at cardiff].

Not the best when a 4 coach unit is replaced by a single 150 (or a pair of 153s). Especially as things might get tighter in December when the 170s go.

 

[Caaardiff]

I noticed only 1 example made it out on Saturday (769002) and only 769445 made it out today [unless I missed one of the morning peak specials which goes straight to the depot after arriving at cardiff].

Not the best when a 4 coach unit is replaced by a single 150 (or a pair of 153s). Especially as things might get tighter in December when the 170s go.

The 170s aren't going in Dec.....

 

[Buzz68]

I see 769445 2P11 0700 Rhymney to Penarth failed in platform 2 at Queen St due to loss of power today. Managed to limp into Canton 90 late

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

When is 769426 coming to Wales?

 

[CaergwrleKen]

006 on the naughty step today, failed on 2P63 at Llanbradach

 

[Bob Price]

I see nightly tweets of services cancelled due to 'resourse shortage'. And it's probably a good 18 months before they can start to get rid of them

 

[AM9]

I see nightly tweets of services cancelled due to 'resourse shortage'. And it's probably a good 18 months before they can start to get rid of them

Do these tweets say whether the shortages are train or driver 'resources'?

 

[Techniquest]

006 on the naughty step today, failed on 2P63 at Llanbradach

I nearly went to Cardiff for that this afternoon, so I'm glad I didn't!

 

[Class360/1]

They all need a 1Z** headcode to Sims

Exactly. Then make them stay there for a month intact, so they can watch other trains die first, before operating again. That should teach them a lesson!

 

[Grumpy Git]

Exactly. Then make them stay there for a month intact, so they can watch other trains die first, before operating again. That should teach them a lesson!

Or park them in the back gardens of the CEO's of Porterbrook and Brush.

 

[Bikeman78]

Do these tweets say whether the shortages are train or driver 'resources'?

Almost certainly train crew. Most days recently there has been five class 769s out in service.

 

[AM9]

Almost certainly train crew. Most days recently there has been five class 769s out in service.

You wouldn't think so from some of the comments above.