Experience of Female Volunteers at Heritage Railways

[Ianno87]

We've had previous discussion on the future of Heritage Railways, including how to attract future (and more diverse) volunteers.

Joanne Crompton (on Twitter as @JoanneMCrompton) is a volunteer fireman on (I believe) the East Lancs and Llangollen railways, and recently did a presentation to the Heritage Railway Association.

The transcript of the presentation has been made available here: https://hra.sharepoint.com/:b:/g/EV2W8ZUsbIZNgA7O3Q7bYmsBylQmsP_rc6GSNtvpD8mVjQ?e=47y9VK

I won't quote it, as I wont do it justice, but I strongly encourage fellow forum-ites to read it end to end; some of her expierences are truly awful and shocking, and should be a wake-up call to the Heritage sector if it wants to stay relevant into the future.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Appalling reading. Am I suprised? Not even a little bit.

I will be distributing this out further as it is a really eye opening read. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Alanko]

Hats off to the author for persevering as long and as hard as she did. Especially in a volunteer role where you aren't remunerated for having to tolerate such nonsense. I'm a normal place of work these issues would be dealt with by an HR department very swiftly. To my mind there is a credibility gap whereby a lot of heritage railways look like some sort of experimental open air retirement community, allowing elderly males to spanner engines for a few hours. Other historic/heritage sectors don't appear to have such a credibility gap, in my view.

I'm also fairly certain that this isn't just a heritage railways issue, as sexism seems to thrive within the spotter community as well. I saw one female photographer comment in a Facebook group that she receives a pile of unsolicited private messages any time she posts photos of trains. Another received a similar volume of comments because two of her photos had been picked up and shown on some official website; the gist of it being 'these only got published because you're female'.

To be honest, it's a culture with a fairly dominant faction of maladjusted and socially stunted males at its core. When the author wrote something like 'it's as though they hadn't seen a female before' there might be a good reason for that!

 

[Ianno87]

Hats off to the author for persevering as long and as hard as she did.

Agreed. I'd have given up in less than 12 months for just a fraction of what she had to put up with.

 

[Flying Phil]

That should be required reading at all Heritage Railways......Well Done for proving yourself (JC) in spite of the prejudice.

 

[DarloRich]

That is really poor and shocking. Really poor. Appalling. If you are a woman you can volunteer in the tea room!

 

[paul1609]

Have to say I've been a fireman at the other end of the country and couldn't say I recognise any of these problems on either my own railway or the half dozen I've visited as footplate crew. The footplate has generally been welcoming and good humoured. I've done hundreds of turns with female drivers and cleaners.

 

[Cowley]

Have to say I've been a fireman at the other end of the country and couldn't say I recognise any of these problems on either my own railway or the half dozen I've visited as footplate crew. The footplate has generally been welcoming and good humoured. I've done hundreds of turns with female drivers and cleaners.

Attitudes seem to vary vastly from one railway to another. It’s good to hear that yours has been on the ball with this.
I thought that what she said here was very well put:

Heritage Railways have lived off the fat of BR for too long and that fat is now running out, Engines are needing heavy maintenance, assets and infrastructure is failing, and departments are faltering.

Volunteer resources are stretched, now is not the time to continue with being selective and allowing the type of behavior I have have highlighted today

 

[YorkshireBear]

Agreed. I'd have given up in less than 12 months for just a fraction of what she had to put up with

I wouldn't have lasted that long.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's an American Railfan YouTube channel called "High Iron" which among other things has an animated series covering a heritage line in the US. One of the principal characters is a young woman, and some of the stories deal with the attitude of other volunteers when they see a girl on the footplate. It deals with the patronising "no place for a lady" aspect rather than the outright harassment though.

It's a shame that the volunteer quoted above had to deal with that sort of stuff, one can only hope that talking about it shines a light and makes those who do cross the line (no pun intended) stop and think for a moment.

As others have said, the stereotype of enthusiasts as being a bit awkward and somewhat unsuccessful in the romance department does have a germ of truth about it... and in my younger days if I'd encountered a female enthusiast of a similar age I might have ended up behaving in a bit of a creepy way. The fact that I wouldn't have intended to be creepy would be of little comfort to the woman in question, of course.

 

[weepingwillowb]

She's a white woman and experienced all that, so what would a person of colour get? Good on her for going public about it.

 

[LowLevel]

An interesting read. I briefly came across Joanne when she was owner's rep on a loco visiting my own railway recently and I heard nothing but positive comments about her knowledge and professionalism.

As a duty manager myself who works across departmental lines I can see where she is coming from.

Loco departments, both engineering and operating, do seem to be years behind everywhere else, both in attitude and facilities. So many of them were built in the image of the old BR both in working structure and facilities and it's not surprising that that has prevailed.

The facilties at my own railway's loco department which are due to be demolished and replaced in the next few years are poor in general but particularly for women - the female toilet is a cubicle in the gents with a sign on the door and there is only one shower, for everyone.

I admire her standing up but she shouldn't have to. I have always made it known on my own railway that if people have problems they're not comfortable for whatever reason with raising themselves I'm happy to give them fair hearing and carry their torch myself as one of the more senior (in terms of being in a supervisory grade rather than years of service) volunteers, whether they're paid employees or volunteers but neither gender or sexuality are issues that people have come to me over. I am aware however that it has been declared to be an issue in the past and a female driver departed some time ago citing patriarchal behaviour.

 

[gg1]

This reminds me of the horrific treatment Karen Harrison received in the 1970s as BR's first female driver, appalling that the same culture still exists 40-50 years later in some areas.

 

[reddragon]

I know at the GWsR we have a running day where only women run the railway, everything, every job and it's a 2 steam services day. There are women in most departments and in management.

I can remember allocating a women to an event duty at a steam gala and she was genuinely surprised that a man didn't get allocated. She was very happy.

Perhaps we are just a very friendly open railway? The new steam shed has full facilities for male & female volunteers. Anyone from a less friendly railway want to join us?

This reminds me of the horrific treatment Karen Harrison received in the 1970s as BR's first female driver, appalling that the same culture still exists 40-50 years later in some areas.

Remember where the retirees from BR are now?

 

[PupCuff]

Certainly when I was involved in heritage rail some time ago I can concur with some of the views expressed about diversity issues; the volunteer breakdown was significantly skewed towards straight, white, cisgender males of usually around retirement age, which brings with it attitudes from an era past which we'd perhaps rather leave there.

Casual racism, sexism, ableism and transphobia were common occurrences (in the grand scheme of things) and homophobia probably was too to be fair, gay cis men were overrepresented in comparison to the 'norm' though and even then I should expect most of the time the team would have a modicum of respect and not say outwardly homophobic comments to my face.

Examples include a manager who unilaterally barred anyone with a certain disability from working in a particular role, against the advice on medical fitness from the doctor who undertook medical assessments, and regular inappropriate comments about the perceived masculinity of a trans female volunteer.

If I was still involved in heritage rail would I try to do more to change the diversity culture? Definitely, though its a particular challenge when you know recruitment of new volunteers is a challenge and you're already working trains to cover the service in order to avoid cancelling the advertised service and as a volunteer yourself you're having to then rearrange your personal diary outside of work to find time to do the management 'stuff' that you should have been doing. There are volunteers who will take umbrage at not being allowed to make sexist jokes any more, go off on a rant and give you a load of abuse, and refuse to come in again - probably for the best on a long-term cultural front but not ideal when you need staff to cover the operations.

I hope the sector's come on in the last half a decade or so, at least a bit. It does need a cultural shift to make sure at least the attitudes reflect the 21st century.

 

[AlterEgo]

We've had previous discussion on the future of Heritage Railways, including how to attract future (and more diverse) volunteers.

Joanne Crompton (on Twitter as @JoanneMCrompton) is a volunteer fireman on (I believe) the East Lancs and Llangollen railways, and recently did a presentation to the Heritage Railway Association.

The transcript of the presentation has been made available here: https://hra.sharepoint.com/:b:/g/EV2W8ZUsbIZNgA7O3Q7bYmsBylQmsP_rc6GSNtvpD8mVjQ?e=47y9VK

I won't quote it, as I wont do it justice, but I strongly encourage fellow forum-ites to read it end to end; some of her expierences are truly awful and shocking, and should be a wake-up call to the Heritage sector if it wants to stay relevant into the future.

Thanks for sharing. You should see the nonsense she puts up with on Twitter. It's not hard to see there's a problem.

 

[Coolzac]

Absolutely appalling the treatment she has had to face. To reiterate what others have said, if I had to experience anything like what she has, I would have left almost straightaway.

And this is where diversity is such a strength for all organisations- if you have a properly diverse workforce it encourages genuine teamwork, and expands your potential workforce and skills available. Which is obviously especially important for many heritage railways who are short of volunteers! Imagine all the potential lost skills and labour hours to others who will have been put off by this behaviour.

What also worries me also is the lack of leadership to stop this happening, although she does at least mention one occasion where directors intervened on her behalf, which is good. Strong leadership means setting a good example, and ensuring this behaviour is not tolerated (a perfect example at the moment of a lack of leadership is the Yorkshire Cricket Club Racism Scandal).

Finally, I worry for some of the younger volunteers, male and female, who are progressing through this culture. They may see this behaviour as acceptable, or something to be put up with. I hope that most heritage railways don't have this culture, and those that do change, else it will harm both the volunteers, and ultimately the railways themselves!

 

[seagull]

It is absolutely true that nobody should have to put up with the sort of behaviour shown towards her, and I admire her for continuing despite that. Fortunately at the couple of heritage with which I have been involved, female volunteers are in abundance and equality is happily achieved with no harassment issues.

And please bear with me here and read properly before shooting me down. I do wonder though whether some element of the reactions from the males with whom she worked has come about BECAUSE of the push towards removing anything resembling male-only societies and clubs from UK culture. I'm not for a minute suggesting that railways are or should be that at all, of course, and in my experience these places are much more enjoyable with a family atmosphere of men, women and families working.

But as a young lad I left the Boy Scouts at the point many years ago when it was agreed that girls could join: to me it was an organisation for boys only. And yet, if I had wanted to join the Girl Guides, that was not allowed, it's a girls only organisation. In a society where we have open tolerance for societies, clubs, gyms, leisure centres, choirs, "days" etc. for women only, and yet appear not to tolerate or promote anything that's for men only, it doesn't come as an entire surprise to me that some degree of resentment may build up among some.

Perhaps there are some out there who think that a heritage railway is their own "private men's club"? One would hope not but it could be.

Again, to clarify, that's no justification or excuse at all, merely seeking to look for any explanations other than merely the obvious ones.

 

[RPM]

It's a shocking read. I have to admit to being absolutely gobsmacked. It seems to be an order of magnitude worse in the heritage sector than it is on the big railway, and the latter isn't exactly perfect. I guess it is partly driven by the demographic; people with dinosaur views tending to have retired from NR but still forming a significant proportion of heritage railway staff? Either way the heritage sector has got to stamp on this, and do so fast. The very existence of many heritage operations will depend on attracting, welcoming and nurturing a new generation - and that requires them to be fully on top of diversity issues. I hope Joanne's presentation will get the ball rolling.

 

[Coolzac]

It is absolutely true that nobody should have to put up with the sort of behaviour shown towards her, and I admire her for continuing despite that. Fortunately at the couple of heritage with which I have been involved, female volunteers are in abundance and equality is happily achieved with no harassment issues.

And please bear with me here and read properly before shooting me down. I do wonder though whether some element of the reactions from the males with whom she worked has come about BECAUSE of the push towards removing anything resembling male-only societies and clubs from UK culture. I'm not for a minute suggesting that railways are or should be that at all, of course, and in my experience these places are much more enjoyable with a family atmosphere of men, women and families working.

But as a young lad I left the Boy Scouts at the point many years ago when it was agreed that girls could join: to me it was an organisation for boys only. And yet, if I had wanted to join the Girl Guides, that was not allowed, it's a girls only organisation. In a society where we have open tolerance for societies, clubs, gyms, leisure centres, choirs, "days" etc. for women only, and yet appear not to tolerate or promote anything that's for men only, it doesn't come as an entire surprise to me that some degree of resentment may build up among some.

Perhaps there are some out there who think that a heritage railway is their own "private men's club"? One would hope not but it could be.

Again, to clarify, that's no justification or excuse at all, merely seeking to look for any explanations other than merely the obvious ones.

I think it's good to hear things from the other side, as it's always better to persuade people than to just punish.

I could absolutely imagine that's what some of the men who have been displaying these behaviours feel, or at least think it's a 'man's space'. Because then naturally you can try and change their behaviours easier if you understand their viewpoint.

It obviously needs to be made clear that a heritage railway is for everyone, and everyone is capable and should be allowed to undertake any role they would like, subject to training and experience. Not just for the benefit of the individuals concerned, but for the railway!

 

[XAM2175]

In a society where we have open tolerance for societies, clubs, gyms, leisure centres, choirs, "days" etc. for women only, and yet appear not to tolerate or promote anything that's for men only, it doesn't come as an entire surprise to me that some degree of resentment may build up among some.

I have to confess that I can't really see a reason for having male-only organisations in general life. Sadly, a lot of the justifications I've heard men attempt to make seem to centre on the fact that they can't be openly sexist if there are women around.

 

[geoffk]

Disappointing to read this as several recent TV programmes covering heritage railways have featured female volunteers and all have come across as being accepted by and getting on with their male colleagues. I suppose if you want to give a positive message you have to choose your interviews carefully. The Dean Forest Railway was the first to have an all-female steam crew and that was back in the 1980s. The same situation no doubt also applies to members of ethnic minorities who have low representation in the heritage sector.

 

[eldomtom2]

It seems to be an order of magnitude worse in the heritage sector than it is on the big railway, and the latter isn't exactly perfect.

One must bear in mind that this is a single woman's experience being told in a manner specifically about negative interactions. It does not seem enough data to make statements about prevalance compared to other sectors.

 

[YorkshireBear]

One must bear in mind that this is a single woman's experience being told in a manner specifically about negative interactions. It does not seem enough data to make statements about prevalance compared to other sectors.

It doesn't, however I can definitely say the negative behaviours described, many I have seen in the heritage sector, but not at work.

 

[eldomtom2]

To my mind there is a credibility gap whereby a lot of heritage railways look like some sort of experimental open air retirement community, allowing elderly males to spanner engines for a few hours. Other historic/heritage sectors don't appear to have such a credibility gap, in my view.

Does this not come off as rather ageist?

 

[Ianno87]

Have to admit, when I posted the thread, I was half-expecting at least one apologist to appear and attempt to explain why it's just a storm in a teacup / not worth worrying about / not a big deal / just "banter" etc etc

Actually very pleasing to see that this has not been the case

 

[theblackwatch]

I'm actually surprised and shocked at this occurring at one of the railways mentioned in the OP, given that the line's General Manager is a female, and there a number of females there who undertake what many would consider to be male-dominated roles (guard's assessor, secondman, rolling stock repairs/maintenance for example), I do wonder if it is particular departments that are the biggest problem, rather than the railways as a whole? Whatever the answer, the dinosaur attitudes she has experienced are not acceptable.

EDIT: I have just noticed she mentions "My third experience was one of ease and acceptance" - perhaps this was at the line I mentioned above.

 

[Halish Railway]

It seems like there are far too many people who’s bigoted attitudes are akin to those from the bygone era in which these railways are preserved. Truly disappointing.

 

[Clayton]

Very impressed with the comments here! It’s fine to be a slightly grumpy old bloke who’s very into his hobby, but there’s no reason not to be welcoming to people who are younger or a bit different. In fact their hobby needs such people if it’s to continue.

 

[6Gman]

This reminds me of the horrific treatment Karen Harrison received in the 1970s as BR's first female driver, appalling that the same culture still exists 40-50 years later in some areas.

A colleague's wife was the first female to get a job in the Regional Control at a certain location - it nearly caused a strike! Within two or three years there were several women working there and it was pretty much accepted but the trailblazer sure took some flak.

And, yes, I think it was down to a sense of it no longer being a lad's club. (I also think some of the male staff actually preferred the change of culture.)