Heading into autumn - what next?

[bramling]

As far as my lifestyle is concerned, i am already back to normal. What makes you think we are not back to normal?

Two refreshing experiences for me this week. Once taking one of my cars in for replacement tyres, not a mask in sight and everyone interacting normally. Then same again for my boiler's annual service today, all very normal and Covid not even mentioned.

But, spot the connection, in both cases it's businesses who have continued working right through.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Two refreshing experiences for me this week. Once taking one of my cars in for replacement tyres, not a mask in sight and everyone interacting normally. Then same again for my boiler's annual service today, all very normal and Covid not even mentioned.

But, spot the connection, in both cases it's businesses who have continued working right through.

It's fairly normal in plenty of business that haven't worked through - right now I'm sat in a pub and it's busy with not a mask in sight! The only change you'd notice is there's a wilted track and trace poster on the wall that no-one cares about.

 

[Cdd89]

As far as my lifestyle is concerned, i am already back to normal. What makes you think we are not back to normal?

I fully agree. I’m back to normal (international travel was the last piece of the puzzle) and I would even consider places with vaccine mandates and indoor masking “normal”, even if I may not agree with it. I’d even consider it normal if I had to get jabbed every six months, even though I wouldn’t be don’t that voluntarily.

At some point reasonably soon, once it’s clear restrictions affecting me aren’t returning, I intend to make a point of no longer watching this sub-forum. Life’s too short, I only have so much free time and I’ve already lost at least a (cumulative) year to this stuff!

 

[Red Onion]

As far as my lifestyle is concerned, i am already back to normal. What makes you think we are not back to normal?

Interesting. So exactly like 2019 then? Where do you live as I’m keen to move there.

The first start where we are not back to normal is medical discrimination and taking away normal activities unless you agree to take an experimental injection. Multiple times a year. Is that normal? There are some of us that became exceptionally unwell after one dose and cannot medically have another. And now it looks like I’m about to be excluded from most of society once the vaccine passport rollout is expanded.

If things like that are normal to you then, just, wow.

 

[bramling]

It's fairly normal in plenty of business that haven't worked through - right now I'm sat in a pub and it's busy with not a mask in sight! The only change you'd notice is there's a wilted track and trace poster on the wall that no-one cares about.

Again, it isn't really surprising that pubs will be largely back to normal, by definition they're not bursting at the bit to be working from home. It's a subset of the office contingent that is holding everything back.

 

[Darandio]

I'm not really sure that the often repeated spectre of some form of incoming restrictions that is constantly hanging over our heads is in any way normal. Each to their own.

 

[bramling]

I'm not really sure that the often repeated spectre of some form of incoming restrictions that is constantly hanging over our heads is in any way normal. Each to their own.

No you're quite right. However I do feel the cloud is gradually thinning away, though there still seems to be a "do as your told over Christmas or it'll be lockdown in the New Year" undercurrent in certain areas.

 

[Red Onion]

Try living in Scotland, it’s far from normal with the vaccine passports!

 

[Pete_uk]

Why should they be forced to have an experimental medical procedure (and yes it is experimental, it's only "approved" on an emergency approval)? Especially as it doesn't stop people spreading or catching it, plus those or the front line are more likely to see the side effects

Millions have had the vaccine and yet there have been relatively few problems.

I would have thought those in the NHS who dealt with the most vulnerable would be expected to be vaccinated against as much as possible.

 

[MikeWM]

It is probably fair to say that England is reasonably back to normal right at the moment, as long as you don't need to see a medical professional, go to a venue that has decided to require vaccine passports for entry, travel abroad, have issues (eg. hard of hearing) with lots of people still wearing masks, or have a job that mandates vaccination.

As I've not fallen into any of those categories, I've been living my life effectively normally since cinemas and hotels reopened in May; I've even started going back to the office a couple of days a week.

But it has to be said that England is an outlier here - I can only think of Norway and Sweden that are similar in what we previously would have called the 'western world'. And I wonder how long that will last - I'll be downright amazed if we get through to Spring without masks and/or vaccine passports being imposed here too - probably both.

Scotland is certainly not 'normal'. Nor is Wales, or Ireland. Nor is France, or Germany, or Austria, or Italy. Nor is Canada or the USA. Nor is Australia or New Zealand. Etc.

 

[Red Onion]

It is probably fair to say that England is reasonably back to normal right at the moment, as long as you don't need to see a medical professional, go to a venue that has decided to require vaccine passports for entry, travel abroad, have issues (eg. hard of hearing) with lots of people still wearing masks, or have a job that mandates vaccination.

As I've not fallen into any of those categories, I've been living my life effectively normally since cinemas and hotels reopened in May; I've even started going back to the office a couple of days a week.

But it has to be said that England is an outlier here - I can only think of Norway and Sweden that are similar in what we previously would have called the 'western world'. And I wonder how long that will last - I'll be downright amazed if we get through to Spring without masks and/or vaccine passports being imposed here too - probably both.

Scotland is certainly not 'normal'. Nor is Wales, or Ireland. Nor is France, or Germany, or Austria, or Italy. Nor is Canada or the USA. Nor is Australia or New Zealand. Etc.

I want to disagree with you! But sadly you are spot on with that.

 

[farleigh]

Millions have had the vaccine and yet there have been relatively few problems.

I would have thought those in the NHS who dealt with the most vulnerable would be expected to be vaccinated against as much as possible.

To protect themselves from the patients you mean??

Surely that is up to them to take the risk..

 

[The Ham]

Given that prior to this there were about 20,000 yellow card reports submitted each year *for all medicines and vaccines combined* - ie. about 400 a week - that seems rather high.

Within the general population there's likely to be fairly limited vaccine take-up/prescribed medications, whilst in the last 6 weeks there's been 11 million 3rd/booster doses issues.

To give a bit of context, that's broadly the same as the entire NHS flu vaccination for those at risk and all over 65's for 2019/20.

As such it's not overly surprising that it's higher than you'd expect when compared to the wider setting (it doesn't explain all of it, but combined with other factors such as a better understand of the system is probably fairly close to explaining most of the difference).

Indeed, and there may be all manner of explanations for these stats (closer than usual attention paid, increased knowledge of the system, etc.)

Nevertheless, in the 50 years of the yellow card system to the end of 2020, there had been 1 million reports in total, covering every medicine prescribed and vaccine administered in those 50 years.

In 2021 so far, there have been over 300,000 reports relating just to Covid vaccines.

That should raise an eyebrow, at least.

Indeed, it is at a level that there's a need to be aware of it. However at 1 per 750 injections (with significant numbers appearing to be mild, including 10% linked to changes in periods and an unknown number reporting a rash at the injection site), it's not at a level which is likely to be of significant concern.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not sure if it's best posted here or on another thread, but Upper Austria is imposing a lockdown on the unvaccinated, with threats there will be "spot checks" to make sure anyone who is out and about is vaccinated or is on "essential" business.

I don't think anyone can credibly claim that vaccines are "optional" under those circumstances.

It makes for chilling reading, if only because it's a policy other European countries will inevitably copy. And that may potentially include parts of the UK...

It's also bonkers, too, with very little chance of proper enforcement - a total waste of time.

 

[brad465]

It's also bonkers, too, with very little chance of proper enforcement - a total waste of time.

On top of that, even if strict enforcement is possible, they'll be some who get around restrictions for unvaccinated people by forging/faking evidence and/or having underground equivalent activities to official venues. Prohibition in the US was unsustainable for a reason (or a few reasons perhaps).

 

[bramling]

It's also bonkers, too, with very little chance of proper enforcement - a total waste of time.

Very chilling for a civilised country to be going down that road. Very chilling indeed.

 

[NorthKent1989]

As far as my lifestyle is concerned, i am already back to normal. What makes you think we are not back to normal?

you don’t think it’s worrying that the government can now basically tell you to get a medical procedure or else lose your job? How is that normal?

Scotland now has a papers please society and that has yet to reach England but that doesn’t mean it won’t

 

[DustyBin]

Very chilling for a civilised country to be going down that road. Very chilling indeed.

It certainly is. What’s equally chilling is the level of public acceptance when it comes to such measures.

 

[duncanp]

I can’t see that beyond the paywall but it sounds absolutely frightening that is where we are going. A year ago this was all a “conspiracy theory” and now it is very much real. There is something very very sinister going on now and I wonder what it is. And will we ever return to a normal society…

There is more detail about this on the BBC.

It is truly horrifying, and it is akin to what happened to Jews in Nazi controlled territories before they were rounded up and sent to concentration camps. (ie - they were forbidden from using public transport and could only use certain shops at certain times.... etc)

It is all pointless anyway, as vaccination protects the vaccinated person from serious illness, hospitalisation and death, so it doesn't matter if a vaccinated person comes into contact with an unvaccinated person.

I would like to think that a lockdown for the unvaccinated would never happen in the UK.

But there are definitely some more extreme locktivists who would advocate just such a measure.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59245018

Covid: Austrians heading towards lockdown for unvaccinated​

Austrians are days away from a first lockdown for anyone not fully vaccinated, after record infections were reported across the country.
Upper Austria province will impose restrictions from Monday if it gets the go-ahead from the federal government. Salzburg also plans new measures.
Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg said a national lockdown for the unvaccinated was "probably inevitable".
Two-thirds of people should not suffer because others were hesitant, he said.
Upper Austria, which borders Germany and the Czech Republic and has a population of 1.5 million, has the country's highest level of infection and the lowest vaccination rate.
Nationally, a record 11,975 Covid-19 infections were recorded in the past 24 hours and Austria's coronavirus commission has warned of a threat that "must be taken seriously".

What lockdown for unvaccinated will mean​

Austria has already banned the unvaccinated from going to restaurants, cinemas, ski lifts and hairdressers, but things are about to get even tougher in Upper Austria.
The province is introducing a lockdown for the unvaccinated.
The chancellor says this means that people who have not been vaccinated won't be able to leave home, unless it is for essential reasons like going to work, buying food or exercise.
Critics say the lockdown will be very hard to enforce.
If infections continue to rise, the authorities say lockdowns for the unvaccinated could be introduced in other areas. The far-right opposition Freedom Party has been campaigning on a platform of vaccine scepticism, a message that has found favour with many Austrians.

Austria's seven-day incidence rate is far higher than in neighbouring Germany, where Health Minister Jens Spahn recently warned of a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

On Thursday, Germany recorded more than 50,000 daily infections for the first time. Germany's 67.3% vaccination rate is higher than in Austria, but not by much.
Unvaccinated people will in effect be barred from restaurants, hotels, cinemas and theatres in the state of Brandenburg from Monday, by a "2G" rule limiting access to people who have been vaccinated or have recovered from Covid.
The Netherlands is also facing a surge in cases and hospital admissions, with a record 16,364 daily infections announced on Thursday.
The caretaker Dutch government is expected to announce Western Europe's first partial lockdown of the winter later on Friday.
Reports suggest a three-week tightening of restrictions is planned, with non-essential shops along with cafes, restaurants and hotels required to shut at 19:00. Public sports events including professional football would go ahead behind closed doors, sources say.

 

[kez19]

you don’t think it’s worrying that the government can now basically tell you to get a medical procedure or else lose your job? How is that normal?

Scotland now has a papers please society and that has yet to reach England but that doesn’t mean it won’t

It just a pity that this can’t apply to politicians though (strangely enough), if they don’t get vaccinated they keep their jobs! Similar to headlines few weeks back that Westminster was excluded for having vax passports!

 

[island]

Why should they be forced to have an experimental medical procedure (and yes it is experimental, it's only "approved" on an emergency approval)?

Actually, the three main vaccines have been fully approved by the EMA.

Especially as it doesn't stop people spreading or catching it,

But it reduces it.

plus those or the front line are more likely to see the side effects

How is that the case?

 

[DustyBin]

It is truly horrifying, and it is akin to what happened to Jews in Nazi controlled territories before they were rounded up and sent to concentration camps. (ie - they were forbidden from using public transport and could only use certain shops at certain times.... etc)

People don’t like the comparison being made, and I’ve avoided making it myself up until this point, but history can’t be ignored just because some find the subject matter “difficult” (understandably in this instance). I don’t claim to be an historian, I do have in a strong interest though (and an A Level!) and I really think we need to stop and ask ourselves “what on earth are we doing here?”.

 

[Bikeman78]

To protect themselves from the patients you mean??

Surely that is up to them to take the risk..

No you don't understand, the vaccine only works if everyone else has it (note sarcasm)! Personally I couldn't care less if someone in the NHS has the vaccine or not. It has far bigger problems to worry about and people leaving will not help.

 

[scarby]

Disturbing news from the Netherlands, where the government is imposing a 'temporary' so-called 'partial lockdown' (of course it isn't a lockdown, it's restrictions and regulations, but the media can't be bothered with reporting the facts).

Link:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...ockdown-halt-covid-19-surge-media-2021-11-12/

Bars and restaurants will close early and sporting events will be held without audiences under a three-week, partial lockdown that is expected to be announced in the Netherlands on Friday evening.

This means people's lives and businesses will once again be disrupted in the run-up towards Christmas, dispute there being no scientific basis for the measures - surely closing bars and restaurants early and playing outdoor sport without an audience will just drive people to socialise more in their homes, where they completely let their guard down?

 

[duncanp]

Disturbing news from the Netherlands, where the government is imposing a 'temporary' so-called 'partial lockdown' (of course it isn't a lockdown, it's restrictions and regulations, but the media can't be bothered with reporting the facts).

Link:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...ockdown-halt-covid-19-surge-media-2021-11-12/



This means people's lives and businesses will once again be disrupted in the run-up towards Christmas, dispute there being no scientific basis for the measures - surely closing bars and restaurants early and playing outdoor sport without an audience will just drive people to socialise more in their homes, where they completely let their guard down?

And it is only going to last for "...three weeks..."

Yeah, right mate, my name's Father Christmas.

Interestingly, The Telegraph article below says that social distancing measures in The Netherlands were dropped in late September, just at the beginning of the respiratory virus season, and some two months later than in England.

So if they had eased measures in the summer, perhaps this current "surge" in cases would not have happened.

Prepare for a locktivist onslaught on ****ter and Faceache over the weekend, as they all try and scare us all into thinking that a similar lockdown is going to happen in the UK.

Mind you, The Netherlands has compulsory masks in many indoor settings and on public transport, so perhaps there is hope that this proves once and for all that these wretched face nappies do not work in stopping the spread of the virus. (Are you listening Mark Drakeford and Nicola Sturgeon?)

Netherlands announces partial lockdown as Covid-19 rates across Europe soar

Bars, restaurants and non-essential stores will be ordered to close at 7pm for at least three weeks starting Saturday

www.telegraph.co.uk

Netherlands announces partial lockdown as Covid-19 rates across Europe soar​

Bars, restaurants and non-essential stores will be ordered to close at 7pm for at least three weeks starting Saturday

The Netherlands will impose Western Europe's first partial lockdown since the summer this weekend, in a bid to stop a surge in Covid-19 cases, Dutch broadcaster NOS said on Friday.
Bars, restaurants and non-essential stores will be ordered to close at 7pm for at least three weeks starting Saturday, NOS said, citing government sources.
People will be urged to work from home as much as possible, and no audiences will be allowed at sporting events in the coming weeks. Schools, theatres and cinemas would remain open.
Caretaker Prime Minister Mark Rutte's cabinet will take a final decision later on Friday, and will announce the new measures during a televised press conference scheduled for 6pm GMT.

New coronavirus infections in the country of 17.5 million have increased rapidly after social distancing measures were dropped late September and hit a record of around 16,300 in 24 hours on Thursday.
The new wave of infections has put pressure on hospitals throughout the country, forcing them to scale back regular care again to treat Covid-19 patients.
To contain the outbreak, the government's pandemic advisory panel on Thursday recommended imposing a partial lockdown and to limit entrance to public places to people who have been fully vaccinated or have recently recovered from a coronavirus infection.
A new lockdown would mean a drastic turn in policy for the Dutch government, which until last month thought that a relatively high vaccination rate would mean it could further ease measures towards the end of the year.

But it is not alone in considering strict measures as infections spike to record levels. Austria on Thursday said it was days away from placing millions of unvaccinated people in lockdown.

Many developed countries, however, are sticking to the view that vaccine rollouts mean lockdowns are unnecessary, with Britain, for instance, relying on booster shots to increase immunity.

Around 85 per cent of the adult Dutch population has been fully vaccinated against Covid-19. Booster shots have so far only been provided to a small group of people with weak immune systems, and will be offered to people aged 80 years and older in December.

Last month, roughly 55 per cent of patients in Dutch hospitals and 70 per cent of those in intensive care were unvaccinated or only partially vaccinated, data provided by the Netherlands' Institute for Health (RIVM) showed.

 

[MikeWM]

Within the general population there's likely to be fairly limited vaccine take-up/prescribed medications, whilst in the last 6 weeks there's been 11 million 3rd/booster doses issues.

To give a bit of context, that's broadly the same as the entire NHS flu vaccination for those at risk and all over 65's for 2019/20.

As such it's not overly surprising that it's higher than you'd expect when compared to the wider setting (it doesn't explain all of it, but combined with other factors such as a better understand of the system is probably fairly close to explaining most of the difference).

I'm not at all sure that 25% of all yellow card reports over 50 years, being related to just one medicine/vaccine in just one year, is expected, however more widespread that medicine/vaccine has been taken. I'd agree that the number would be siginficant, but 25% of all reports ever?

Indeed, it is at a level that there's a need to be aware of it. However at 1 per 750 injections (with significant numbers appearing to be mild, including 10% linked to changes in periods and an unknown number reporting a rash at the injection site), it's not at a level which is likely to be of significant concern.

I'm also not sure I'd describe changes in periods as 'mild', especially if I were a young woman hoping to have children at some point in the future. If I were in that group, at the least I'd want see a good explanation as to why this side-effect is fairly common, and scientific proof that other aspects of fertility weren't going to be affected, before going ahead with being vaccinated. I don't believe that has been provided so far.

Actually, the three main vaccines have been fully approved by the EMA.

But that's just due to politics side-stepping the usual safeguards, and to be perfectly blunt they very much ought not to have been fully approved at this point. The vaccines are still all in phase 3 clinical trials, for example, so 'experimental' is a perfectly fair description.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It just a pity that this can’t apply to politicians though (strangely enough), if they don’t get vaccinated they keep their jobs! Similar to headlines few weeks back that Westminster was excluded for having vax passports!

Exactly, it never applies to the politicians, one rule for them and another for us, I guess they’re immune from Covid, and people still think this is about a virus with a 99% survival rate?

It is truly horrifying, and it is akin to what happened to Jews in Nazi controlled territories before they were rounded up and sent to concentration camps. (ie - they were forbidden from using public transport and could only use certain shops at certain times.... etc)

It is a comparison, many simply don’t want to see but sadly you cannot hide from the truth, what is unfolding is the largest threat of authoritarianism since WW2.

People don’t like the comparison being made, and I’ve avoided making it myself up until this point, but history can’t be ignored just because some find the subject matter “difficult” (understandably in this instance). I don’t claim to be an historian, I do have in a strong interest though (and an A Level!) and I really think we need to stop and ask ourselves “what on earth are we doing here?”.

I made that comparison once and it was deleted, I hope this won’t be deleted as you cannot ignore history just because people’s feelings might get hurt.

 

[MikeWM]

It is truly horrifying, and it is akin to what happened to Jews in Nazi controlled territories before they were rounded up and sent to concentration camps. (ie - they were forbidden from using public transport and could only use certain shops at certain times.... etc)

The techniques of 'othering' a population are well-rehearsed and have been repeated throughout history.

You identify a section of the population, and you begin cutting them off from the rest of society - first cultural venues and social venues (so they become 'out of sight and out of mind' from those who previously socialised with them), then their ability to work and earn and spend money, and so on and so on. You tell everyone its for the 'good of society', because you also blame that group for the problems of the rest of society and the reason that things aren't working the way people would like. Usually you also throw in something about them being diseased and hence a threat to the health of others.

It's an obvious playbook to those who see it - you don't need to be much of a student of history to know that this has happened time and again.

The reason the Nazis are so often mentioned in such conversations is simply a short of shorthand - they are well-known and one of the most extreme, but what they did was hardly unique.

I can't think of a single example from history where a society, where this sort of 'othering' has taken hold, has ended well. History is there to warn us which roads should not be taken.

 

[kez19]

Exactly, it never applies to the politicians, one rule for them and another for us, I guess they’re immune from Covid, and people still think this is about a virus with a 99% survival rate?

Yet no one questions it why? I'll guess those in the media are probably excluded too? (I don't know but as I say it'll be a guess). I'll just add its a funny old world - social media that is, you see politicians play to the cameras "masked" and when cameras are off (still on - and this is just a guess too) masks are off - come on now its all a show/for show. Its only been in last couple weeks we see Westminster now applying masks yet hadn't since day 1 similar to Holyrood but they are allowed to take them off to speak then back on, yet Joe Public must keep them on regardless (see the double standards at play here or just myself?)

You have to remember (being sarcastic here of course) that politicians know what the real world is like and what us plebs do!

I should really considering contacting Scot Gov again on how many MPs have been vaccinated/vax passports but then on the other whats the point i'll be fobbed off again or be told "none of my business".

 

[Eyersey468]

@NorthKent1989 i completely agree, I for one am sick of the lies and the hypocrisy from this government. I saw the parallels with 1930s Germany a long time ago but there are some that can't, or won't, see it.