Cross Country Service Reductions and Alterations, 28-11-2021 onwards

[221129]

It suits the unions and staff as well though.

Unions are generally against overtime.

 

[yorkie]

Unions are generally against overtime.

True though some unions don't appear to be particularly interested in representing the views of many of their members!

 

[507020]

XC's HST powercars have quite a few differences compared to the GWR ones, including a completely different speedometer and associated equipment, as the GWR ones are fitted with ATP whereas the XC ones aren't. Entirely possible that this could in the eyes of XC render it to require a conversion course.

Fair enough it may be a conversation course, but this will be minimal compared to what would be required for drivers who have only driven Voyagers and Turbostars. When HSTs have more capacity than Voyagers that’s what they should be running.

Do XC 221 cabs still have controls for tilting or differ significantly from Avanti ones and do XC 170 cans differ from other Turbostars in the same way?

 

[Killingworth]

Rumours but somethings troubling XC. Their traffic loadings are incredibly difficult to juggle mixing shorter distance commuting with longer distance and more seasonal leisure.

Only this week I heard an XC employee who previously extolled the virtues of HSTs state they were very expensive to run, thirsty he might have said.

 

[JonathanH]

Only this week I heard an XC employee who previously extolled the virtues of HSTs state they were very expensive to run, thirsty he might have said.

Trouble is that a 9-car Voyager formation is also thirsty. Difficult to move from single 4- and 5-car units when you take into account the extra fuel consumption.

 

[geoffk]

The worry is that the longer this continues (lack of RDW agreement) that it could become the de facto norm with the purse strings then permanently tightened?

Perhaps a silly question, but why would a RDW agreement have an end date?

 

[Neo9320]

Perhaps a silly question, but why would a RDW agreement have an end date?

Good question!

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps a silly question, but why would a RDW agreement have an end date?

Theoretically because RDW shouldn't be necessary beyond the end of the agreement. In practice because it gives the unions negotiating power.

Unless and until the railway becomes about providing a public service, rather than employment with the convenient side effect of having a toy train set, nothing will change.

 

[nat67]

Rumours but somethings troubling XC. Their traffic loadings are incredibly difficult to juggle mixing shorter distance commuting with longer distance and more seasonal leisure.

Only this week I heard an XC employee who previously extolled the virtues of HSTs state they were very expensive to run, thirsty he might have said.

It doesn’t matter about the fuel consumption really as XC is all diesel. And if you if it was FGW then running an expensive train can’t be helped unless you don’t run a train at all. But it’s a public service they’re running.

 

[STINT47]

In the morning my local station (Beeston) has lost the 0913, 1013 and 1113 Birmingham services meaning that if you miss the 0845 to Birmingham your next direct service (without changing at Nottingham or Leicester) is at 1213 nearly three and a half hours later.

It's really appalling to make these large cuts especially at such short notice. When you also consider that EMR has stopped the service to Matlock and the Crewe service is every two hours options of changing at Derby or even just travelling to Derby are also pretty limited.

To a large extent the train service from my local station and in the East Midlands overall has become unusable during the last nine months.

Levelling up the East Midlands? Hopeless.

 

[ChrisC]

With so many Nottingham to Birmingham and Nottingham to Cardiff trains not running next week the frequency of trains between Nottingham and Derby will at certain times of the day be no more than hourly. EMR are still running a reduced timetable and some hours the Nottingham to Crewe train doesn’t run and the Matlock trains are not running between Nottingham and Derby. Nottingham is really not getting a very good deal with services on local routes at the moment and this will not help.

 

[Kettledrum]

Companies deliberately rely on rest day working because the enhanced rates are still cheaper than hiring loads of staff to sit spare.

Had the DfT been vaguely competent in negotiating franchise and contract extensions, they would have ensured that there were sufficient penalties for not running trains, or operating short formed trains that Arriva XC made sure that they did actually recruit and train enough drivers.

What are the consequences for Arriva in cancelling all these services and having the length of so many trains?
(Other than people on this forum getting very hot under the collar)

 

[Western Sunset]

But don't worry guys. Nottm is a "winner" in the HS2 stakes.

 

[Darandio]

Presumably they don't lose as much money and thus improve their financial position.

As in improving the financial position of Arriva? It shouldn't matter to Arriva, the DfT are spending the money and collecting the revenue on their behalf.

 

[irish_rail]

XC's HST powercars have quite a few differences compared to the GWR ones, including a completely different speedometer and associated equipment, as the GWR ones are fitted with ATP whereas the XC ones aren't. Entirely possible that this could in the eyes of XC render it to require a conversion course.

True, but GWR drivers already drive XC HST power cars on Laira depot anyway so he is familiar with driving XC power cars. They also forced him to relearn all his routes again, including Laira, Penzance, and Bristol etc. Make of that what you will, but this is a driver with too my knowledge an unblemished record.

 

[D9006]

True though some unions don't appear to be particularly interested in representing the views of many of their members!

Could not agree more with you

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/5488/sat-27-sun-28-nov-other-routes.pdf

 

[RT4038]

Had the DfT been vaguely competent in negotiating franchise and contract extensions, they would have ensured that there were sufficient penalties for not running trains, or operating short formed trains that Arriva XC made sure that they did actually recruit and train enough drivers.

What are the consequences for Arriva in cancelling all these services and having the length of so many trains?
(Other than people on this forum getting very hot under the collar)

Probably because having those kind of penalties will put the franchise/contract price up to a level that they don't want to afford?

 

[tbtc]

Feels like the main problems are the cuts to the ex-Central services

Can't blame Arriva 100% since the Government are the ones controlling/approving things now though

They also forced him to relearn all his routes again, including Laira, Penzance, and Bristol etc

I don't know how it all works, but I'd expect a new recruit to tick all the training boxes - so that they are fresh and have the maximum number of months on their competencies (maybe it works differently in the rail industry, I can only go on the one I work in)

 

[DanNCL]

Cuts confirmed to last until at least 10th December. XC appear to be publicly using the Covid 19 excuse...

 

[Wyrleybart]

At the moment I am hearing of 3 and 4 hour gaps in service, even at the brand new Worcestershire Parkway station. I would describe that as sub optimal but assume this id DfT working up the plans for GBR.

 

[train_lover]

This must be false. Theres a HST driver training course running as we speak

 

[bramling]

True though some unions don't appear to be particularly interested in representing the views of many of their members!

There’s two conflicting things at play.

Unions don’t like overtime / RDW as it reduces staff numbers, which is a bad thing as more staff = more members.

However members themselves tend to like overtime / RDW, apart from the rare “I don’t do overtime” breed.

Generally speaking it makes for a more stable working environment not to have to rely on overtime. For sure it causes a lot of issues.

 

[507020]

There’s two conflicting things at play.

Unions don’t like overtime / RDW as it reduces staff numbers, which is a bad thing as more staff = more members.

However members themselves tend to like overtime / RDW, apart from the rare “I don’t do overtime” breed.

Generally speaking it makes for a more stable working environment not to have to rely on overtime. For sure it causes a lot of issues.

If a company has more staff, then it has more resiliency in that it has more staff available to do overtime to cover for illness or other staff absence, rather than covering for a lack of staff being employed in the first place!

 

[vdriud]

I have emailed my local MP over the cuts and proposed short formations. He is already pretty unhappy at the loss of half hourly Bristol to Birmingham service. He is based in a marginal seat and is well placed in govt so let's hope he has a chat with the SoS.

If a company has more staff, then it has more resiliency in that it has more staff available to do overtime to cover for illness or other staff absence, rather than covering for a lack of staff being employed in the first place!

Surely the DfT require a Business Continuety plan as part of the tender evaluation process?

Moderator note: Some posts have been split to https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...or-to-go-to-directly-operated-railway.225338/

 

[DanNCL]

I have emailed my local MP over the cuts and proposed short formations. He is already pretty unhappy at the loss of half hourly Bristol to Birmingham service. He is based in a marginal seat and is well placed in govt so let's hope he has a chat with the SoS.

Likewise I’ll be sending off a few emails to various politicians tomorrow, cross party, who are in a better position to do something about this shambles than I am.

Surely the DfT require a Business Continuety plan as part of the tender evaluation process?

Yes, XC should have a Business Continuity plan. It’s clearly not worked properly here as we wouldn’t be having all of these cuts on Monday if it had.

Failing to provide such a significant chunk of their contracted services should in itself put them in default of their contract (not sure what type of contract XC are on currently but it shouldn’t make much of a difference to this), and therefore be grounds for the Operator of Last Resort to be at the very least mobilised, to take over in the event of the situation not be satisfactorily resolved by Arriva.

 

[DorkingMain]

True, but GWR drivers already drive XC HST power cars on Laira depot anyway so he is familiar with driving XC power cars. They also forced him to relearn all his routes again, including Laira, Penzance, and Bristol etc. Make of that what you will, but this is a driver with too my knowledge an unblemished record.

It's a box ticking exercise, and personally one I'd be happy to undertake. Rightly or wrongly different TOCs do sometimes have different working arrangements for the same routes and traction.

Better to cover your back than give the company a stick to beat you with if something does go wrong.

 

[507020]

It's a box ticking exercise, and personally one I'd be happy to undertake. Rightly or wrongly different TOCs do sometimes have different working arrangements for the same routes and traction.

Better to cover your back than give the company a stick to beat you with if something does go wrong.

Even if there are separate boxes for HST (GWR) and HST (XC) I would still try and tick both of them if it can avoid a cancellation at all.

 

[DorkingMain]

If a company has more staff, then it has more resiliency in that it has more staff available to do overtime to cover for illness or other staff absence, rather than covering for a lack of staff being employed in the first place!

Perhaps but it also has to pay those staff, hire managers to manage and assess them, provide adequate mess facilities for those sitting spare, make sure they have appropriate equipment, uniform etc.

It's the same reason Sundays outside arrangements persist in so many places. Companies would much rather pay an enhanced rate to get a reduced number of crew in vs having the entire depot sat spare on full pay when engineering work happens.

 

[Right Away]

This is all XCs making. A driver at GWR Plymouth with 10 years or so of HST driving experience which was current thanks to 2+4s moved over to XC recently and was told he had to sign off HSTs.

Possibly a result of the link that they will start in? Moving to a different TOC voluntarily results in a loss of seniority. If the link joined for new entrants at the new TOC doesn't have HST work then this is not surprising. Previous traction knowledge doesn't override the agreed linking arrangements or terms and conditions at the new TOC.

 

[vdriud]

Likewise I’ll be sending off a few emails to various politicians tomorrow, cross party, who are in a better position to do something about this shambles than I am.


Yes, XC should have a Business Continuity plan. It’s clearly not worked properly here as we wouldn’t be having all of these cuts on Monday if it had.

Failing to provide such a significant chunk of their contracted services should in itself put them in default of their contract (not sure what type of contract XC are on currently but it shouldn’t make much of a difference to this), and therefore be grounds for the Operator of Last Resort to be at the very least mobilised, to take over in the event of the situation not be satisfactorily resolved by Arriva.

I agree. This is clearly a critical service failure and a material breach of contract. I guess the question is does the dft have the nous to press the default button!

Glad you have also contacted your MP

It's a box ticking exercise, and personally one I'd be happy to undertake. Rightly or wrongly different TOCs do sometimes have different working arrangements for the same routes and traction.

Better to cover your back than give the company a stick to beat you with if something does go wrong.

But surely the risks you quote have to be balanced with the consequences of not operating services such as dangerous overcrowding, driving customers into road based transport and of course the spread if SARS CoV 2.

To me the risks of non operation outway the small risk of a trained and skilled driver operating a locomotive they know how to drive and knows the route. It's bonkers and if the railways have a future they really need to prove the country needs the railway. A railway is to expensive to be a part time asset. The industry needs to wake up.