LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[IanXC]

The DFT do have a far greater role than they should in the operation of LNER (and every TOC for that matter that isn't open access), but their level of control does not go to such an extreme level that they mandate which crews can sign what stock,

Are you sure? There is the oft quoted example of a TOC with a 4 car EMU out of service for want of DfT sign off on a £500 part, and the fact (I have heard this from multiple, separate sources) that even internal staff moves within a TOC can result in weeks of waiting for DfT approval.

 

[800001]

Are you sure? There is the oft quoted example of a TOC with a 4 car EMU out of service for want of DfT sign off on a £500 part, and the fact (I have heard this from multiple, separate sources) that even internal staff moves within a TOC can result in weeks of waiting for DfT approval.

The TOC i work for, like you mention, basically authorise every penny, every recruitment, wether internal or exterbal.

 

[IanXC]

The TOC i work for, like you mention, basically authorise every penny, every recruitment, wether internal or exterbal.

For clarity - the TOC or the DfT authorise?

 

[800001]

For clarity - the TOC or the DfT authorise?

Apologies, forgot to type, DFT, Dft authorise every penny spent.

 

[47827]

If they’d followed the 2016 ECML track access application the Mk4 sets would have been shortened by now and limited to Edinburgh fast services. I suppose if that had actually happened there’d be regular questions about why they never showed up on Leeds services…

I imagine on such a plan Leeds would have retained a few very early morning departures and late night arrivals with the sets overnighting at a mix of NL, EC and Bounds Green in order to maintain flexibility and keep competency at LNER depots rather like its recently retired HST fleet used to work more than just from/to Hull/Harrogate/Inverness/Aberdeen. All academic now, things are as they are on and don't need any further explanation. I guess it's good that at least some of the sets and associated traction have found use instead of scrapping the lot.

 

[Swimbar]

b) with customers increasingly becoming frustrated with the poor value for money LNER offer in comparision with their two main competitors on the London - Newcastle/Edinburgh markets (Lumo and the airlines), if Mark 4 sets had been retained North of York on select diagrams (perhaps strategically timed to be just ahead/just behind a Lumo service) LNER would've had a more competitive edge on the route than they have now. In hindsight the better decision would have been to keep the sets on the Edinburgh route, but the damage is done now and with crew knowledge lapsed wouldn't be feasible to undo.

You are clearly not a regular traveler between London & Newcastle/Edinburgh. I accept that the difference between LNER and British Airways from Edinburgh to London (Return) can be about £40 depending on when you travel, however the cheapest tickets from Newcastle to London (Return) by British Airways are 4 to 5 times more than LNER!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Hopefully it will be a modern application of a new variant of LNER livery that will help bring the extremely tired looking (particularly the DVT) units into the decade.

My hope is that they will take the LNER Azuma livery and blend it with elements of Swallow and GNER. So, base grey/white as per the Azuma livery but with the window band and doors being dark blue (as per GNER) instead of red with the dark blue band being straight on the locos and DVTs (as per Swallow on the mark 3 DVTs, unfortunately the 91 version of Swallow doesn't work on the east side of the locos anymore due to the extra grill added at the 91/1 refurb) rather than having the wave/hump that the Azumas have.

 

[XAM2175]

... b) with customers increasingly becoming frustrated with the poor value for money LNER offer in comparision with their two main competitors on the London - Newcastle/Edinburgh markets (Lumo and the airlines), if Mark 4 sets had been retained North of York on select diagrams (perhaps strategically timed to be just ahead/just behind a Lumo service) LNER would've had a more competitive edge on the route than they have now. ...

How so?

My hope is that they will take the LNER Azuma livery and blend it with elements of Swallow and GNER.

I'm prepared to bet you money that it won't be this.

 

[Retorus]

My hope is that they will take the LNER Azuma livery and blend it with elements of Swallow and GNER.

That sounds absolutely hideous.

 

[skyhigh]

There is one very noteable difference from the platform staff side in that the 80xs have a flashing orange light on the carriage that the TM is in whilst keyed in to the door panel, which enables the platform staff to easily identify where the TM is - Mark 4s don't have that.

That's very much the level of a paper brief I would expect. In the wider scheme of things platform staff are pretty much no issue compared to driver or guard traction knowledge.

 

[Christmas]

I hope that they actually utilise the body sides to carry the LNER name rather than only on the loco ends.
I still have the impression that the management at LNER are still indoctrinated in the Virgin way of doing things, a stark contrast to East Coast.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I hope that they actually utilise the body sides to carry the LNER name rather than only on the loco ends.
I still have the impression that the management at LNER are still indoctrinated in the Virgin way of doing things, a stark contrast to East Coast.

That’s interesting. I think having it only on the ends looks smarter than say, First’s trains, which are often heavily overbranded, particularly Avanti and SWR which bear the name far too many times on the carriages.

 

[43096]

That’s interesting. I think having it only on the ends looks smarter than say, First’s trains, which are often heavily overbranded, particularly Avanti and SWR which bear the name far too many times on the carriages.

Agreed. Feeling the need to plaster the logo everywhere strikes me as a company with insecurities so feels the need to remind customers regularly who they are.

 

[Rhydgaled]

My hope is that they will take the LNER Azuma livery and blend it with elements of Swallow and GNER.

That sounds absolutely hideous.

I'll re-phrase that as: "something similar to LNER Azuma livery but with blue instead of red and no wave/hump on the ends". Still sound hideous? If so, do you think the LNER Azuma livery is also hideous?

 

[Christmas]

Agreed. Feeling the need to plaster the logo everywhere strikes me as a company with insecurities so feels the need to remind customers regularly who they are.

One logo per coach isn't overkill. At the other end of the scale was Virgin, both west and east coast. In the case of a Pendolino, the Virgin logo at each end and 9 totally anonymous coaches in between.
LNER has fallen into the same trap.

 

[Helvellyn]

b) with customers increasingly becoming frustrated with the poor value for money LNER offer in comparision with their two main competitors on the London - Newcastle/Edinburgh markets (Lumo and the airlines), if Mark 4 sets had been retained North of York on select diagrams (perhaps strategically timed to be just ahead/just behind a Lumo service) LNER would've had a more competitive edge on the route than they have now. In hindsight the better decision would have been to keep the sets on the Edinburgh route, but the damage is done now and with crew knowledge lapsed wouldn't be feasible to undo.

On what basis? It's only just been announced pre-Christmas by ORR that LNER is just shy of 90% of pre-COVID travel levels, significantly ahead of other operators. Even comparing just long distance operators where the average figure is 63% that's some margin.

I'd also hardly call Lumo a main competitor when they are still only operating three trains a day each way Tue-Fri (only two Sat-Mon).

Or is this just a case that with the load factors LNER are achieving people are still expecting quotas for extremely low fares to be available, which normally reflect empty trains?

At the end of the day keeping the Mark 4s on the King's Cross to Leeds services simplifies set diagrams and crew rostering. Plus given the West Yorkshire market is the stronger business travel route it probably also makes sense to have the more premium heavy Mark 4s on this route.

 

[Fuzzytop]

91101 has been fitted with panwell lighting (and a pantograph camera, I guess, they usually come together?).

Source is a photo in the 225 Group taken at King's Cross last night. It's not mine so not sharing directly here, but here's a link: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1566017917103480&set=pcb.4751066244988272.

 

[800001]

91101 has been fitted with panwell lighting (and a pantograph camera, I guess, they usually come together?).

Source is a photo in the 225 Group taken at King's Cross last night. It's not mine so not sharing directly here, but here's a link: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1566017917103480&set=pcb.4751066244988272.

All the 91s will be getting the modified pan cam and light.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 11/01

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1100 Doncaster Works Wagn Shops to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D Caped
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1349 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Doncaster Works Wagn Shops Caped

Loco move Caped Realtime Trains - 092J 0718 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Doncaster Works Wagn Shops

STP 15/01

5A17 dep 0948 37800 MK4s
Realtime Trains - FRGT 0930 Doncaster Works Wagn Shops to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D
5A23 dep 1150
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1157 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Doncaster Works Wagn Shops

 

[DanNCL]

All the 91s will be getting the modified pan cam and light.

I guess a positive came after all those chipped pantograph carbons after all then!

 

[ExRes]

I know that they're not actually LNER locos any longer but it may be of interest that Europhoenix 91117 & 91120 are scheduled to be moving from Leicester LIP to Barrow Hill LIP today on DCR hauled 1314 0Q91

 

[Dave91131]

I know that they're not actually LNER locos any longer but it may be of interest that Europhoenix 91117 & 91120 are scheduled to be moving from Leicester LIP to Barrow Hill LIP today on DCR hauled 1314 0Q91

Be interesting to see what, if anything, comes of this.

I'd, perhaps wrongly, believed the Europhoenix export plans were long dead in the water.

 

[ExRes]

Be interesting to see what, if anything, comes of this.

In the case of today the answer is nothing yet, 0Q91 was cancelled

 

[yorksrob]

Given the supposedly dire financial straits the railway is in, why are LNER even tendering for new stock to replace the 225's at the moment. Surely cancelling this for the timebeing would be a relatively painless cost cutting measure !

 

[800001]

Given the supposedly dire financial straits the railway is in, why are LNER even tendering for new stock to replace the 225's at the moment. Surely cancelling this for the timebeing would be a relatively painless cost cutting measure !

Because if they do go ahead with the planned expansion to 2 hourly service for Middesborough, and Huddersfield, then they need new stock to enable them to run.
Without the extra stock, which will be bimode and possibly trimode, expansion of services can not happen.

 

[Nym]

But the big question if of course. Why do all these places need so many direct services? And replacing the 225s which can be used on captive services doesn't really gain much other than not running the 225s.

 

[yorksrob]

Because if they do go ahead with the planned expansion to 2 hourly service for Middesborough, and Huddersfield, then they need new stock to enable them to run.
Without the extra stock, which will be bimode and possibly trimode, expansion of services can not happen.

Can't they just buy trains for the new services instead !

 

[DanNCL]

Given the supposedly dire financial straits the railway is in, why are LNER even tendering for new stock to replace the 225's at the moment. Surely cancelling this for the timebeing would be a relatively painless cost cutting measure !

Quite, but LNER don't seem to know how to spend money wisely. They’ve already shown that with their various “initiatives” that have benefited nobody but altogether have cost (ultimately the taxpayer) a lot of money in costs for paying people to come up with them and implement them.

Because if they do go ahead with the planned expansion to 2 hourly service for Middesborough, and Huddersfield, then they need new stock to enable them to run.
Without the extra stock, which will be bimode and possibly trimode, expansion of services can not happen.

LNER are living in fantasy land if they seriously think the treasury will pay for any further service expansions in the current climate. They can run a procurement all they like but they’re wasting their time (and money) doing so as HM Government aren’t going to approve any contracts being signed.

But the big question if of course. Why do all these places need so many direct services? And replacing the 225s which can be used on captive services doesn't really gain much other than not running the 225s.

Indeed. It really isn’t the end of the world if people have to change at Leeds, Darlington or Newcastle stations, and the sooner LNER realise this the better. Avanti have realised, why not LNER?

I would love to know how well used the extensions currently are. I’d travelled on all of them pre-pandemic and only the Scottish ones appeared to be well used. Indeed I’ve had the evening services to Bradford and Sunderland entirely to myself before.

 

[yorksrob]

The mk 4s are working very nicely on the Leeds services. And I can get all the way to Kings Cross without my bum going to sleep on them. Just leave them be.

 

[Killingworth]

I would love to know how well used the extensions currently are. I’d travelled on all of them pre-pandemic and only the Scottish ones appeared to be well used. Indeed I’ve had the evening services to Bradford and Sunderland entirely to myself before.

I've been on a Sheffield train with few aboard after Derby and even less after Chesterfield. And much longer ago on a Hull train where I was often the last in the carriage when leaving at Brough.

Difficult to balance up when you're trying to level up with better connectivity across the nation.