SWR timetable change - late trains removed and I can't get home

[nw1]

I wonder whether it would have been better to cancel trains a little earlier in the evening, around 2130 or 2200, as then you are not 'killing' the night-out market. I would imagine that there might be a lull (in loadings) between the 'drink after work' trains up to around 2100-2130 and the theatre/night-out trains at say 2230 or later, though have never studied loadings in detail so cannot be sure.

f the trains around 2130 or 2200 are cancelled, you can always wait while if the 'theatre trains' are cancelled, you're stuck.

I would imagine that staffing is the issue though you could, in theory, have the drivers working incoming trains around 2230 then work outgoing trains around 2300.

 

[Haywain]

I would imagine that staffing is the issue though you could, in theory, have the drivers working incoming trains around 2230 then work outgoing trains around 2300.

Rostering isn't that simple.

 

[3rd rail land]

This is what makes SWR so irritating - they can change the timetable last minute and base everything, even your right to get to your destination, on their last minute changes, and not when you bought the ticket, even for advances. It doesn't seem right.

If only everyone who get fobbed off by SWR travelled by means other than SWR such as driving, they might changes their attitude then.
Unfortunately that'll never happen. Many people won't want to drive the sort of distances involved, are unable to drive for medical reasons, don't have a license or own a car.

As I've said before I'd fight SWR all the way if they did that to me, including going to court if needs be. It would be because of the inconvenience caused and the fact they are breaking the law rather than about the monetary aspect.

 

[miklcct]

If only everyone who get fobbed off by SWR travelled by means other than SWR

What other affordable public transport other than SWR is available? Any coach services we can use if SWR doesn't behave?

 

[3rd rail land]

What other affordable public transport other than SWR is available? Any coach services we can use if SWR doesn't behave?

Aside from driving there isn't any other choice. Even then if going into London driving may not be affordable with parking, congestion charge etc...
I'm resigned to the fact that SWR can get away with this despicable behavior for the rest of eternity.

 

[island]

I repeat, sue them. If they start getting serious volumes of claims they may actually get off their butts and comply with their legal obligations. If not it will start costing them serious money.

Unlike you, most passengers are not obsessed with clogging up the already overburdened courts system by litigating every minor annoyance, and have more pressing things to do with their time.

 

[infobleep]

Unlike you, most passengers are not obsessed with clogging up the already overburdened courts system by litigating every minor annoyance, and have more pressing things to do with their time.

If SWR were more reasonable on this point. maybe people might think differently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If SWR were more reasonable on this point. maybe people might think differently.

Regardless of the legal position, I don't think SWR are being unreasonable (morally) to do what they have with a reasonable amount of notice in the context of the situation in which our country finds itself with high levels of sickness absence due to COVID. If (see the thread going on about NRCoT changes) it was the night before, I'd consider that unreasonable. I'd also consider it unreasonable if it was done for any other discretionary reason e.g. because they fancied painting the station footbridge and just couldn't be bothered putting buses on.

It's an annoyance, sure, but not disastrous. I'd either lose the £25 (it's not a huge sum), considering it to be a donation to the theatre, resell the ticket if permitted and someone wants it, book a hotel and an early train the next morning, or take a taxi home from the nearest station with a late enough service (perhaps Basingstoke), or drive part of the way (though I guess the OP doesn't drive).

 

[infobleep]

Regardless of the legal position, I don't think SWR are being unreasonable (morally) to do what they have with a reasonable amount of notice in the context of the situation in which our country finds itself with high levels of sickness absence due to COVID. If (see the thread going on about NRCoT changes) it was the night before, I'd consider that unreasonable. I'd also consider it unreasonable if it was done for any other discretionary reason e.g. because they fancied painting the station footbridge and just couldn't be bothered putting buses on.

It's an annoyance, sure, but not disastrous. I'd either lose the £25 (it's not a huge sum), considering it to be a donation to the theatre, resell the ticket if permitted and someone wants it, book a hotel and an early train the next morning, or take a taxi home from the nearest station with a late enough service (perhaps Basingstoke), or drive part of the way (though I guess the OP doesn't drive).

When I went to university it was on the understanding that I didn't bring a car to Oxford city. I didn't drive so it can't a problem for me. Since then though I have felt public transport should be provided.

In this case, the person bought a ticket and the trains he was taking were not regularly being cancelled but now they are and I'm not aware of staff sickness increasing with the staff.

 

[jossadb]

Regardless of the legal position, I don't think SWR are being unreasonable (morally) to do what they have with a reasonable amount of notice in the context of the situation in which our country finds itself with high levels of sickness absence due to COVID. If (see the thread going on about NRCoT changes) it was the night before, I'd consider that unreasonable. I'd also consider it unreasonable if it was done for any other discretionary reason e.g. because they fancied painting the station footbridge and just couldn't be bothered putting buses on.

It's an annoyance, sure, but not disastrous. I'd either lose the £25 (it's not a huge sum), considering it to be a donation to the theatre, resell the ticket if permitted and someone wants it, book a hotel and an early train the next morning, or take a taxi home from the nearest station with a late enough service (perhaps Basingstoke), or drive part of the way (though I guess the OP doesn't drive).

It may not be unreasonable to change the schedule due to staff sickness, but what is unreasonable is to not help arrange alternative travel when that exists already. They have a legal obligation to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may not be unreasonable to change the schedule due to staff sickness, but what is unreasonable is to not help arrange alternative travel when that exists already. They have a legal obligation to do so.

It is not presently easy for them to do so, because bus and coach companies are suffering the exact same problems. It is rather a "perfect storm", and really needs people to have some understanding with it for the next six months to a year or so.

Once things calm down, there's then no excuse for it, of course.

 

[infobleep]

It is not presently easy for them to do so, because bus and coach companies are suffering the exact same problems. It is rather a "perfect storm", and really needs people to have some understanding with it for the next six months to a year or so.

Once things calm down, there's then no excuse for it, of course.

So how many services would SWR have had to cancel if they hadn't reduced the timetable? Were they experiencing a different rise and fall in case numbers compared to the average across the population?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So how many services would SWR have had to cancel if they hadn't reduced the timetable?

It is better to have a reduced timetable that you can operate close to 100% punctually/reliably than have a fuller one you can't.

Were they experiencing a different rise and fall in case numbers compared to the average across the population?

If you don't believe that the railway is still experiencing unprecedented sickness, which they absolutely are, then I don't think I can usefully continue the discussion with you, as that simple fact is at the root of all of this.

 

[Haywain]

So how many services would SWR have had to cancel if they hadn't reduced the timetable?

Who knows? But do you prefer the certainty of knowing what is going to run or just having to guess what might turn up on any given day?

 

[jossadb]

It is not presently easy for them to do so, because bus and coach companies are suffering the exact same problems. It is rather a "perfect storm", and really needs people to have some understanding with it for the next six months to a year or so.

Once things calm down, there's then no excuse for it, of course.

Right, but if there is another service that's running, then they should put passengers on it without question, when instead they're refusing to let people use rival services.

 

[infobleep]

It is better to have a reduced timetable that you can operate close to 100% punctually/reliably than have a fuller one you can't.



If you don't believe that the railway is still experiencing unprecedented sickness, which they absolutely are, then I don't think I can usefully continue the discussion with you, as that simple fact is at the root of all of this.

I was purely referring to SWR and no other TOC

Had this been GTR I wouldn't have made the comments I did

I read enough comments on this forum from people saying they were hardly cancelling at trains. This is SWR

Who knows? But do you prefer the certainty of knowing what is going to run or just having to guess what might turn up on any given day?

I get the impression it was almost certain before the revised timetable came in but maybe that wasn't the case and more trains were being cancelled than people give the impression was the case.

 

[Wolfie]

Unlike you, most passengers are not obsessed with clogging up the already overburdened courts system by litigating every minor annoyance, and have more pressing things to do with their time.

So your alternative is for passengers to let a vile company like SWR completely ignore it's legal obligations and incur more cost themselves is it? It is very easy for you to categorise what is being done to the OP as a "minor annoyance". I doubt that he feels the same way about it

 

[Bletchleyite]

So your alternative is for passengers to let a vile company like SWR completely ignore it's legal obligations and incur more cost themselves is it? It is very easy for you to categorise what is being done to the OP as a "minor annoyance". I doubt that he feels the same way about it

It IS a minor annoyance.

It is not the death or serious illness of a family member or friend.
It is not your house burning down.
It is not losing your job.
It is not crashing your car.
It is not missing your kids' Christmas play.
It is not being unable to see your Mum last Christmas.

It is annoying, but in the scheme of things it is not disastrous. It is a choice of a financial hit for a hotel or taxi, or losing something that cost £25. It isn't even as bad as £20 falling out of your wallet and blowing away, as you can't spend it on something else.

Taken within the context of the present situation with people going off work all over the place, it is minor. Annoying, but minor.

 

[infobleep]

It IS a minor annoyance.

It is not the death or serious illness of a family member or friend.
It is not your house burning down.
It is not losing your job.
It is not crashing your car.
It is not missing your kids' Christmas play.
It is not being unable to see your Mum last Christmas.

It is annoying, but in the scheme of things it is not disastrous. It is a choice of a financial hit for a hotel or taxi, or losing something that cost £25. It isn't even as bad as £20 falling out of your wallet and blowing away, as you can't spend it on something else.

Taken within the context of the present situation with people going off work all over the place, it is minor. Annoying, but minor.

May be it is time they changed rules them to allow this to happen if it's that important.

 

[Kite159]

It IS a minor annoyance.

It is not the death or serious illness of a family member or friend.
It is not your house burning down.
It is not losing your job.
It is not crashing your car.
It is not missing your kids' Christmas play.
It is not being unable to see your Mum last Christmas.

It is annoying, but in the scheme of things it is not disastrous. It is a choice of a financial hit for a hotel or taxi, or losing something that cost £25. It isn't even as bad as £20 falling out of your wallet and blowing away, as you can't spend it on something else.

Taken within the context of the present situation with people going off work all over the place, it is minor. Annoying, but minor.

Some people can't take the financial hit of discovering they need to book a city centre hotel at short notice or forking out for a taxi because the TOC decides to remove the last few trains the night before.

Especially when other TOCs can be inflexible if you want to travel earlier, even on a through ticket. Yes you can get a refund but then have to pay over the odds for an open ticket on the day.

For example someone having a long weekend in the North East to celebrate a birthday, buys tickets which will connect to what should have been the 2nd last train from London to their home station, only to discover on the day the last 3 trains have simply been removed so when they get into London they end up stuck as the TOC staff simply will go "so what, they don't exist, go away". Try and get the tickets changed to travel back to London earlier will result in the first TOC saying "nope, you can refund the original ticket and pay us a lot more money for an open ticket"

Action like that will simply push those passengers to using cars instead of trains, as trains can't be trusted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some people can't take the financial hit of discovering they need to book a city centre hotel at short notice or forking out for a taxi because the TOC decides to remove the last few trains the night before.

Yes, true. They then have the option of not going, which is the loss of a theatre visit but not in fact a loss of £25, because you couldn't spend the £25 on something else.

I'm not arguing it's not annoying, it is annoying, but it's minor in the scheme of things, and plenty of other things (sickness etc) could cause the same issue.

Especially when other TOCs can be inflexible if you want to travel earlier, even on a through ticket. Yes you can get a refund but then have to pay over the odds for an open ticket on the day.

You have the absolute right on an Advance to travel on the previous or next service of the same TOC if your train is cancelled.

This is potentially a bit annoying if the next train is the 0530 and you'd booked a hotel and wanted to use the 0800 instead, I suppose.

For example someone having a long weekend in the North East to celebrate a birthday, buys tickets which will connect to what should have been the 2nd last train from London to their home station, only to discover on the day the last 3 trains have simply been removed so when they get into London they end up stuck as the TOC staff simply will go "so what, they don't exist, go away". Try and get the tickets changed to travel back to London earlier will result in the first TOC saying "nope, you can refund the original ticket and pay us a lot more money for an open ticket"

Action like that will simply push those passengers to using cars instead of trains, as trains can't be trusted.

On a through ticket, that is false.

On splits, well, if you pay less for something it's not entirely unfair that you should get less utility. But in reality discretion is in most cases shown.

 

[Fiyero]

Update: my amazing friend will pick me up from Basingstoke which I can get to if nothing else changes.
I assume I’ll have no issue using my ticket for the 23:05 to Eastleigh on the 23:12 to Basingstoke in the circumstances. The actual ticket looks more expensive as no advances available (though it isn’t even on journey planners yet to know for sure).

 

[MotCO]

Is there such a thing as Consequential Loss? If SWR cancel last trains after tickets were bought, then it is reasonale to assume passengers may incur additional costs as a result, so SWR should be liable to reimburse them. The OP should be entitled to compensation if he has to stay over in London, or if he decides not to go to the show, the theatre tickets should be reimbursed by SWR.

I get that SWR may not be able to provide a service due to events outside their control, but they should still be liable for the Consequential Losses.

 

[island]

Customers retain the right at common law to claim for the consequential losses of a breach of contract, but they are under a duty to mitigate those losses to the extent possible, and losses too remote to the breach cannot be claimed for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Customers retain the right at common law to claim for the consequential losses of a breach of contract, but they are under a duty to mitigate those losses to the extent possible, and losses too remote to the breach cannot be claimed for.

I would agree. If the OP could be bothered, then they would probably be able to reclaim, via the Courts, the cost of a taxi from Basingstoke, a budget hotel in London (but not the Ritz nor a posh meal out before the show) or the £25 ticket if they didn't go. But most people can't be bothered with all that.

Also take into account the Court Fee of £35. I don't believe you can reclaim costs for Money Claim Online (Small Claims Court) claims. So you'd only want to claim the £25 if you felt it worth paying an extra £10 for the pleasure of doing so - which takes this firmly into the territory of those who litigate because they enjoy doing so.

Make a court claim for money

How to take legal action if someone owes you money (small claims court), how much it costs, what happens next. Includes information from withdrawn guidance EX303, EX304, EX306, EX321, EX325 and EX350.

www.gov.uk

 

[jossadb]

After arguing back and forth for a while with SWR, they have finally agreed that passengers from Exeter to London will be allowed to use GWR services at no extra cost!

I would agree. If the OP could be bothered, then they would probably be able to reclaim, via the Courts, the cost of a taxi from Basingstoke, a budget hotel in London (but not the Ritz nor a posh meal out before the show) or the £25 ticket if they didn't go. But most people can't be bothered with all that.

Also take into account the Court Fee of £35. I don't believe you can reclaim costs for Money Claim Online (Small Claims Court) claims. So you'd only want to claim the £25 if you felt it worth paying an extra £10 for the pleasure of doing so - which takes this firmly into the territory of those who litigate because they enjoy doing so.

Make a court claim for money

How to take legal action if someone owes you money (small claims court), how much it costs, what happens next. Includes information from withdrawn guidance EX303, EX304, EX306, EX321, EX325 and EX350.

www.gov.uk

SWR would have to pay the court fees - CPR Rule 27.14(2):

(2) The court may not order a party to pay a sum to another party in respect of that other party’s costs, fees and expenses, including those relating to an appeal, except –

(a) the fixed costs attributable to issuing the claim which –

(i) are payable under Part 45;

 

[Fiyero]

Update: my amazing friend will pick me up from Basingstoke which I can get to if nothing else changes.
I assume I’ll have no issue using my ticket for the 23:05 to Eastleigh on the 23:12 to Basingstoke in the circumstances. The actual ticket looks more expensive as no advances available (though it isn’t even on journey planners yet to know for sure).

I made another journey today so discussed with the ticket seller and now have a back on track voucher which effectively makes my advance ticket a flexible ticket so I can stop short. I don’t think there will be a full ticket check at Basingstoke after midnight to catch me out but I want no further issues!!

 

[AlterEgo]

I made another journey today so discussed with the ticket seller and now have a back on track voucher which effectively makes my advance ticket a flexible ticket so I can stop short. I don’t think there will be a full ticket check at Basingstoke after midnight to catch me out but I want no further issues!!

Good to hear someone took some initiative!

 

[Wolfie]

I would agree. If the OP could be bothered, then they would probably be able to reclaim, via the Courts, the cost of a taxi from Basingstoke, a budget hotel in London (but not the Ritz nor a posh meal out before the show) or the £25 ticket if they didn't go. But most people can't be bothered with all that.

Also take into account the Court Fee of £35. I don't believe you can reclaim costs for Money Claim Online (Small Claims Court) claims. So you'd only want to claim the £25 if you felt it worth paying an extra £10 for the pleasure of doing so - which takes this firmly into the territory of those who litigate because they enjoy doing so.

Make a court claim for money

How to take legal action if someone owes you money (small claims court), how much it costs, what happens next. Includes information from withdrawn guidance EX303, EX304, EX306, EX321, EX325 and EX350.

www.gov.uk

When l successfully claimed against easyjet, who were adamant - just like SWR - that they had no liability and then settled the day before the case hearing - they paid both the Court filing fees and interest.

After arguing back and forth for a while with SWR, they have finally agreed that passengers from Exeter to London will be allowed to use GWR services at no extra cost!



SWR would have to pay the court fees - CPR Rule 27.14(2):

Absolutely re the CPR. Having been involved in litigation for HMG up to Supreme Court level the Courts have no fears whatsoever for me.

SWR folding because people stood up for their rights.....

 

[Jason12]

Also take into account the Court Fee of £35. I don't believe you can reclaim costs for Money Claim Online (Small Claims Court) claims. So you'd only want to claim the £25 if you felt it worth paying an extra £10 for the pleasure of doing so - which takes this firmly into the territory of those who litigate because they enjoy doing so.

I have recently used Money Claim Online.

You do have to stump up the £35 fee to file the claim, but that gets automatically added to the value of the claim itself. So in the example you give the total being claimed through the courts process would be £60. If you have a valid claim and the defendant wants to settle, it would have to be for that amount.

I would highly recommend Money Claim Online. Having been flatly ignored by taking the customer complaint route, it got me the desired result in a dispute with a hotel. My claim was for £63. Hotel had to pay £98 to settle, which they did immediately and with a fulsome apology to boot. All I had to do then was mark the claim as settled on the website.