Hope Valley temporary "timetable"

[Watershed]

The usual excuse for leaving passengers high and dry.

It's not an excuse, it's the realities of working within today's fragmented railway system. In a joined-up system you're absolutely right, it would probably have been solved in some way. But that's not the world we live in.

Would a for hour gap be seen as acceptable in Surrey i wonder.

Almost entirely shutting Victoria Central was seen as acceptable earlier this month. Frankly, anything and everything is on the table at the moment.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would a for hour gap be seen as acceptable in Surrey i wonder.

there has been a rather long thread about that very subject…

The usual excuse for leaving passengers high and dry.

I wouldn’t say that’s an excuse. More of a request.

Sometimes things happen that are dreadfully inconvenient, but I find it better to try and look into the reasons and find out why they happen, and understand it, rather than get cross about it. Life is usually easier that way.

 

[Killingworth]

What we don't know is if the January cuts by all TOCs are still needed to cover Covid sickness and isolation absences. It's almost certainly too early to change the timetables yet but looking at the national Covid trends they are starting to go the right way.

The 14.14 is currently cut. There is no 15.14 because it runs at 15.46 due to freight path conflicts. (Extending the train that starts/terminates at New Mills.) The 13.14 doesn't stop at Dore and Hathersage either so a gap westbound from 12.14 until 15.46.

That, and the equivalent reverse working from Piccadilly, are the only current cuts in the Hope Valley stopping service.

The good news, yet to be confirmed, is the indicative timetable for December. That includes a regular hourly Northern non-skip-stopping service all day. I suspect that may still include an element of wishful thinking so don't assume it will all happen. When the redoubling at Dore and the two new loops are in place next summer it will be much easier to fully achieve from December 2023.

Thankfully the Saturday service is currently hourly and stopping at Edale. Ability to get on at Sheffield is another issue. They get crowded.

 

[yorksrob]

there has been a rather long thread about that very subject…



I wouldn’t say that’s an excuse. More of a request.

Sometimes things happen that are dreadfully inconvenient, but I find it better to try and look into the reasons and find out why they happen, and understand it, rather than get cross about it. Life is usually easier that way.

Well indeed, but when it gets to the point that every plan you try to make is scuppered because there's a train missing, my patience wears thin. This is the worst it's been since mid 2020 when Northern were refusing to run all day timetables long after lockdown had ended.

 

[tbtc]

Would a for hour gap be seen as acceptable in Surrey i wonder.

It's funny how there seems to be more anger on here about Northern having one fewer stop at Edale (during the middle of the day, in January, for a station where the bulk of the passengers are in the summer) than the long established bi-hourly service than there was about Southern abandoning London Victoria... shows the priorities on here I guess!

But this is an instructive thread of the Forum as a whole.

Some people want to understand the complexities of the railway and the trade offs (would there be sufficient passengers actually wanting to get on/off at Edale in January to warrant one additional stop, given that this may come at the cost of a four minute turnaround at Sheffield which could then impact upon Manchester Piccadilly in the evening rush hour, with knock on consequences... how do you balance all of the fixed paths and bottlenecks like the single track at Dore which BR implemented to save a couple of quid... ) - people who understand that there's always an opportunity cost, that each additional stop will benefit some people but inconvenience others, and that one more stop may be the difference between a reliable service and one that struggles to maintain time and eventually needs an extra unit/crew because it's impossible to accommodate one more stop without throwing things out of kilter

Some people don't want to understand the complexities, but will seek any excuse to crowbar in a mention of some line through the middle of nowhere that was abandoned fifty years ago, because they have this obsession with Beeching and would rather keep dwelling on it than trying to find constructive solutions for the twenty first century which cost less than a billion pounds

 

[yorksrob]

It's funny how there seems to be more anger on here about Northern having one fewer stop at Edale (during the middle of the day, in January, for a station where the bulk of the passengers are in the summer) than the long established bi-hourly service than there was about Southern abandoning London Victoria... shows the priorities on here I guess!

But this is an instructive thread of the Forum as a whole.

Some people want to understand the complexities of the railway and the trade offs (would there be sufficient passengers actually wanting to get on/off at Edale in January to warrant one additional stop, given that this may come at the cost of a four minute turnaround at Sheffield which could then impact upon Manchester Piccadilly in the evening rush hour, with knock on consequences... how do you balance all of the fixed paths and bottlenecks like the single track at Dore which BR implemented to save a couple of quid... ) - people who understand that there's always an opportunity cost, that each additional stop will benefit some people but inconvenience others, and that one more stop may be the difference between a reliable service and one that struggles to maintain time and eventually needs an extra unit/crew because it's impossible to accommodate one more stop without throwing things out of kilter

Some people don't want to understand the complexities, but will seek any excuse to crowbar in a mention of some line through the middle of nowhere that was abandoned fifty years ago, because they have this obsession with Beeching and would rather keep dwelling on it than trying to find constructive solutions for the twenty first century which cost less than a billion pounds

You see, the thing about London Victoria (and I admit, it did seem a strange decision to me at the time, but I deferred to those more knowledgeable) is that no one was actually prevented from travelling there. Yes, you might have had a slightly more circuitous journey via the tube or bus, but it wouldn't have constituted anything as inconvenient a four hour gap without any access.

Yes, I do understand about trade offs. I think that accepting the risk of a slightly shorter turn around time at Piccadilly would have been an acceptable and necessary trade off for not leaving Edale with a four hour gap.

 

[nw1]

If there are indeed going to be lower passenger numbers for a few years, one wonders whether they could attempt to 'reset' the national timetable to that of a previous year, 15-odd years ago (with some tweaks to account for re-opened lines, electrifications, etc), when presumably less trains were running overall, but there were even-interval patterns rather than the messy 'timetables with holes' that we have at the moment?

Not saying this would work, just floating it as an idea.

If we're going to have reduced timetables for many years, we need even-interval reduced timetables. An even-interval half-hourly service, for example, is better than two of the three trains per hour of a 20-min service, with a 40-min gap.

 

[Killingworth]

It's funny how there seems to be more anger on here about Northern having one fewer stop at Edale (during the middle of the day, in January, for a station where the bulk of the passengers are in the summer) than the long established bi-hourly service than there was about Southern abandoning London Victoria... shows the priorities on here I guess!

But this is an instructive thread of the Forum as a whole.

Some people want to understand the complexities of the railway and the trade offs (would there be sufficient passengers actually wanting to get on/off at Edale in January to warrant one additional stop, given that this may come at the cost of a four minute turnaround at Sheffield which could then impact upon Manchester Piccadilly in the evening rush hour, with knock on consequences... how do you balance all of the fixed paths and bottlenecks like the single track at Dore which BR implemented to save a couple of quid... ) - people who understand that there's always an opportunity cost, that each additional stop will benefit some people but inconvenience others, and that one more stop may be the difference between a reliable service and one that struggles to maintain time and eventually needs an extra unit/crew because it's impossible to accommodate one more stop without throwing things out of kilter

Some people don't want to understand the complexities, but will seek any excuse to crowbar in a mention of some line through the middle of nowhere that was abandoned fifty years ago, because they have this obsession with Beeching and would rather keep dwelling on it than trying to find constructive solutions for the twenty first century which cost less than a billion pounds

The Hope Valley line's single train that's been cut from the regular timetable is a small price to pay compared with others. I still don't like it but most using Hope Valley trains are stoical people.

I certainly understand the point about the lack of some stops by the 13.14 out of Sheffield. That's due to freight path conflicts, although last time I monitored those over several months they'd never run. Having forgotten that train doesn't stop at Dore I've been caught a couple of times when returning home after a morning meeting in town. Coffee at Grindleford!

Due to constructive engagement over the years improvements are coming. That 15.46 was an unexpected bonus when there was no way to work the 15.14 around the freights. Not ideal perhaps, but better than no train at all. It loads well and it's only half an hour until the 16.14.

Dore currently has a gap from 20.14 to 22.47 in the regular evening service. People who take long distance trains out of Sheffield in a morning may change from Dore, but on return will use a taxi in the evening. However that gap hasn't previously been easily filled. Using 195s may make it less difficult for the 21.14 to stop. A 22.14 is currently blocked by active freight services.

It's a challenging route to operate with weather a big factor in loadings, particularly for Edale. Weekends are too. End to end journeys are adding to loadings, not entirely unconnected with fares generally being a lot lower than on TPE and EMR fast services. They're very friendly trains! For those who haven't tried the line why not come along: https://peakdistrictbytrain.org/railway-line-guides/hope-valley-line/

But avoid weekends at present and the non running weekdays 14.14 from Sheffield!

 

[dosxuk]

If there are indeed going to be lower passenger numbers for a few years, one wonders whether they could attempt to 'reset' the national timetable to that of a previous year, 15-odd years ago (with some tweaks to account for re-opened lines, electrifications, etc), when presumably less trains were running overall, but there were even-interval patterns rather than the messy 'timetables with holes' that we have at the moment?

15 years ago we had the same problems. Just thinking of routes I used regularly back then, there was random holes in regular patterns - I particuarly remember the Liverpool - Norwich route with at least one service terminating at Nottingham and a couple that used to go via Oakham to avoid conflicts on the ECML, resulting in a gap at Grantham.

In terms of the Hope Valley line, 15 years ago the local service was a mess. Irregular intervals and a stopping pattern that meant you had to consult a timetable, there was zero hope of remembering the combination of which stations were stopped at on each service. Dore in particular had a terrible service pattern, with hours and hours between services. If people are complaining about a temporary four hour gap in January at Edale, I doubt they would be wanting to go back to that timetable in the slightest!

 

[yorksrob]

The regular timetable has a two hour gap at Edale, which is a nuisance but not the end of the world.

 

[nw1]

15 years ago we had the same problems. Just thinking of routes I used regularly back then, there was random holes in regular patterns - I particuarly remember the Liverpool - Norwich route with at least one service terminating at Nottingham and a couple that used to go via Oakham to avoid conflicts on the ECML, resulting in a gap at Grantham.

In terms of the Hope Valley line, 15 years ago the local service was a mess. Irregular intervals and a stopping pattern that meant you had to consult a timetable, there was zero hope of remembering the combination of which stations were stopped at on each service. Dore in particular had a terrible service pattern, with hours and hours between services. If people are complaining about a temporary four hour gap in January at Edale, I doubt they would be wanting to go back to that timetable in the slightest!

Ironically further back than that, in the days of 101s with the occasional Pacer (around 1997 or thereabouts) the Hope Valley seemed to have a regular, easy to remember timetable. It was every 2 hours off peak, hourly in the peak. In the off-peak alternate trains from Manchester turned back at New Mills. All trains had the same calling pattern, fast from Piccadilly to Reddish North (sorry, not South - corrected this thanks to @McrWarrior) then all stations (except Strines was peak only, I think).

There were also two fast 158s per hour each way, IIRC, but as these didn't call at the stations I used, I didn't study their patterns so intently. They seemed to be regular-interval though, as would be expected with 'Alphaline'-type services from this era.

In this era I used the Hope Valley quite a bit, and found the timetable fine for my purposes. I have to admit I've lost track of what's happened since (last time I used the Hope Valley was on a 101 to Edale on Good Friday, 2000, with the '97 pattern still in existence) and assumed that something resembling the 1997 timetable still existed!

 

[paul1609]

Would a for hour gap be seen as acceptable in Surrey i wonder.

It's interesting to look at the pre covid passenger numbers for Edale v Holmwood.
Holmwood is one of the Surrey stations that's had it service entirely withdrawn.
Edale 90,000 Holmwood 70,000.
Holmwood is the base camp station for the south easts "mountain" Leith Hill.
If it was properly marketed as such with a proper service on saturday evenings, sundays and bank holidays I can't help but think that it would give Edale a run for its passenger numbers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting to look at the pre covid passenger numbers for Edale v Holmwood.
Holmwood is one of the Surrey stations that's had it service entirely withdrawn.
Edale 90,000 Holmwood 70,000.
Holmwood is the base camp station for the south easts "mountain" Leith Hill.
If it was properly marketed as such with a proper service on saturday evenings, sundays and bank holidays I can't help but think that it would give Edale a run for its passenger numbers.

Holmwood has an hourly service today.

 

[Killingworth]

Ironically further back than that, in the days of 101s with the occasional Pacer (around 1997 or thereabouts) the Hope Valley seemed to have a regular, easy to remember timetable. It was every 2 hours off peak, hourly in the peak. In the off-peak alternate trains from Manchester turned back at New Mills. All trains had the same calling pattern, fast from Piccadilly to Reddish South then all stations (except Strines was peak only, I think).

In this era I used the Hope Valley quite a bit, and found the timetable fine for my purposes. I have to admit I've lost track of what's happened since (last time I used the Hope Valley was on a 101 to Edale on Good Friday, 2000, with the '97 pattern still in existence) and assumed that something resembling the 1997 timetable still existed!

40 years ago it was two stopping services, Sheffield to New Mills 2 hourly, 3 hourly off peak. Change for Manchester onto corresponding stopper to Piccadilly. I knew a couple who lived in New Mills, one commuting to Sheffield, the other to Manchester.

Only an hourly fast back then.

That's when it was decided it only needed single track through Dore. In 1985 that happened and almost immediately the national decline in passenger numbers started to reverse. Ironic that just as it's about to be redoulbled passenger numbers have plummeted.

 

[nw1]

It's interesting to look at the pre covid passenger numbers for Edale v Holmwood.
Holmwood is one of the Surrey stations that's had it service entirely withdrawn.
Edale 90,000 Holmwood 70,000.
Holmwood is the base camp station for the south easts "mountain" Leith Hill.
If it was properly marketed as such with a proper service on saturday evenings, sundays and bank holidays I can't help but think that it would give Edale a run for its passenger numbers.

I do remember the services on that line ending abruptly with the 18xx journeys on Saturdays in 2014, when I used the line on a couple of occasions. For March, when I used it, that coincides nicely with sunset but during the summer there might be a market for running it a little bit later.

As an aside I do love that line (or the bit I've used, Horsham to Ockley). Is there anywhere in the southeast where the stations still have that bucolic charm? Perhaps Uckfield? (I have never done any part of the Oxted lines, though I did consider doing them on a Network Day just after electrification before other things got in the way).

In 1958 Holmwood had 2tph! (albeit on a 20-40 pattern, from Waterloo, the other train in the pattern running to Effingham Junction).
One was a Horsham, the other, a Holmwood terminator. Trips to Leith Hill by rail in 1958 were thus particularly convenient, though I'm not sure whether the state of the footpaths was as good as it has been in the past 30-40 years.

 

[The Planner]

If there are indeed going to be lower passenger numbers for a few years, one wonders whether they could attempt to 'reset' the national timetable to that of a previous year, 15-odd years ago (with some tweaks to account for re-opened lines, electrifications, etc), when presumably less trains were running overall, but there were even-interval patterns rather than the messy 'timetables with holes' that we have at the moment?

Not saying this would work, just floating it as an idea.

If we're going to have reduced timetables for many years, we need even-interval reduced timetables. An even-interval half-hourly service, for example, is better than two of the three trains per hour of a 20-min service, with a 40-min gap.

No, too much change in rolling stock, infrastructure etc.. you would end up still writing pretty much from scratch.

 

[paul1609]

As an aside I do love that line (or the bit I've used, Horsham to Ockley). Is there anywhere in the southeast where the stations still have that bucolic charm? Perhaps Uckfield? (I have never done any part of the Oxted lines, though I did consider doing them on a Network Day just after electrification before other things got in the way).

Yes lots!
Marshlink, Arun Valley Line, Uckfield Line, Medway Valley Line, Stour Valley Line (via Canterbury West) Maidstone East to Ashford. Parts of the East Coastway, North Downs line, Thames branches and that's just south of the Thames!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Ironically further back than that, in the days of 101s with the occasional Pacer (around 1997 or thereabouts) the Hope Valley seemed to have a regular, easy to remember timetable. It was every 2 hours off peak, hourly in the peak. In the off-peak alternate trains from Manchester turned back at New Mills. All trains had the same calling pattern, fast from Piccadilly to Reddish South then all stations (except Strines was peak only, I think).

Reddish North, I presume, but otherwise good points. (You'd be waiting some time for a train anywhere from Reddish South back in 1997 and/or these days!)

 

[nw1]

40 years ago it was two stopping services, Sheffield to New Mills 2 hourly, 3 hourly off peak. Change for Manchester onto corresponding stopper to Piccadilly. I knew a couple who lived in New Mills, one commuting to Sheffield, the other to Manchester.

It shows I'm getting old when I see the term '40 years ago' and instinctively think of 1969, or something. It's actually 1982 - aargh!!!

So it sounds a pretty poor service. First time I studied the timetable of the 'Hope Valley group' (including Rose Hill etc) was the 1989-90 timetable, which IIRC had an hourly Hope Valley stopper. It was routed via Hyde, calling only at Hyde Central on that stretch (the other stations getting no off-peak service at all), then Romiley and all stations. There were also two stoppers via the Reddish North route, one to New Mills and one, IIRC, to Rose Hill.

By 1993, the 1997 pattern referred to above had become established, I remember travelling on most of the lines in this area on a Wayfarer early in October. In addition to the Hope Valley or New Mills, there was an all-stations to Marple, and an all-stations Rose Hill via Hyde (calling at the formerly unserved small stations). ISTR in 1993, the Hope Valley/New Mills were 150s and the others 101s - but later on in the 90s, the 101s took over most of the Hope Valley services with the odd Pacer as mentioned above.

 

[Killingworth]

No, too much change in rolling stock, infrastructure etc.. you would end up still writing pretty much from scratch.

However major adjustments are going to have to be made. In the case of Hope Valley there was intended to be a 3rd hourly fast service from 2023/4. That seems unlikely to happen.

I'm not saying it's even likely to be officially considered but creating a 4th passenger path between the two cities might be easiest by extending the New Mills stopper, as it already is 2 oi 3 times a day to create the irregular trains. It would possibly only require one extra unit. An entirely new service would probably need three, depending on where it started and terminated.

 

[nw1]

Reddish North, I presume, but otherwise good points. (You'd be waiting some time for a train anywhere from Reddish South back in 1997 and/or these days!)

Sorry, easy to get those mixed up! Maybe I think of South because it gets mentioned more!

However major adjustments are going to have to be made. In the case of Hope Valley there was intended to be a 3rd hourly fast service from 2023/4. That seems unlikely to happen.

I'm not convinced this is particularly a good idea. While I don't like the idea of reductions, I'm also not sure that excessive frequencies off peak (with attendant reliability problems) are the best solution either. Yet saturating the network with vast numbers of off-peak services seemed to be de rigueur in the 2010s. Why not just make the existing services longer?
(Not Hope Valley as we've seen, but I always thought more generally that the late 90s and 00s had the right balance of decent frequency, even-interval timetables, and reliability in the sense that the network wasn't full to bursting).

Going back to the Hope Valley, I think this came up in a previous thread: the third service would force skip stopping on the Hope Valley locals. Not such a good idea, surely a 30-min interval fast service from Manchester to Sheffield is sufficient, providing those services have sufficient capacity?

 

[yorksrob]

It's interesting to look at the pre covid passenger numbers for Edale v Holmwood.
Holmwood is one of the Surrey stations that's had it service entirely withdrawn.
Edale 90,000 Holmwood 70,000.
Holmwood is the base camp station for the south easts "mountain" Leith Hill.
If it was properly marketed as such with a proper service on saturday evenings, sundays and bank holidays I can't help but think that it would give Edale a run for its passenger numbers.

Yes, I do think that the Horsham mainline deserves a proper all day timetable.

 

[nw1]

Yes, I do think that the Horsham mainline deserves a proper all day timetable.

I'm not saying such a service would ever run, as it would be economically unviable to avoid Gatwick, but one can fancifully imagine a 'walkers' service' from Victoria, taking the path of one of the two Arun Valley locals beyond Horsham, and calling at all stops beyond Epsom including Boxhill, Holmwood and Amberley, all obvious walkers' stations.

Not really a serious suggestion, but a 'walkers' special' would be an interesting variation on the typical seaside special, and the like.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not saying such a service would ever run, as it would be economically unviable to avoid Gatwick, but one can fancifully imagine a 'walkers' service' from Victoria, taking the path of one of the two Arun Valley locals beyond Horsham, and calling at all stops beyond Epsom including Boxhill, Holmwood and Amberley, all obvious walkers' stations.

Not really a serious suggestion, but a 'walkers' special' would be an interesting variation on the typical seaside special, and the like.

I think they just need a decent hourly service throughout the day really.

 

[nw1]

I think they just need a decent hourly service throughout the day really.

True (though to be fair Boxhill and Amberley do already I think, assuming they haven't fallen victim to Covid cuts). As I said it wasn't really a serious post, just playing around with the idea of a 'walkers' special' routed this way...

 

[yorksrob]

True (though to be fair Boxhill and Amberley do already I think, assuming they haven't fallen victim to Covid cuts). As I said it wasn't really a serious post, just playing around with the idea of a 'walkers' special' routed this way...

Well I think it's a decent point in many respects. The leisure market ought to be given proper consideration, whether in Edale or Amberley.

 

[Bald Rick]

If there are indeed going to be lower passenger numbers for a few years, one wonders whether they could attempt to 'reset' the national timetable to that of a previous year, 15-odd years ago (with some tweaks to account for re-opened lines, electrifications, etc), when presumably less trains were running overall, but there were even-interval patterns rather than the messy 'timetables with holes' that we have at the moment?

Not saying this would work, just floating it as an idea.

If we're going to have reduced timetables for many years, we need even-interval reduced timetables. An even-interval half-hourly service, for example, is better than two of the three trains per hour of a 20-min service, with a 40-min gap.

In my opinion this is the direction the railway will be going in, ie a complete rewrite for many operators to produce a reduced even interval service, but...

No, too much change in rolling stock, infrastructure etc.. you would end up still writing pretty much from scratch.

It’s a huge task. Think the May 2018 changes x 5. And if it goes wrong, it’s May 2018 x 10. I can’t see how it can take less than 2 years to complete.

 

[Killingworth]

Well I think it's a decent point in many respects. The leisure market ought to be given proper consideration, whether in Edale or Amberley.

Edale's passenger numbers fell from 100k 2019/20: to 46k 2021/21, but I'd expect in 2021/22 they could be well over 100k. At the height of the pandemic trains were empty but Edale was gridlocked with cars. The hills were alive. Northern aren't blind to that and the 195s now on the route are evidence of the changed leisure emphasis. Loadings for Bamford are good too. Apparently Bamford Edge is featured in a Chinese TV soap opera!

 

[RailWonderer]

I went up that way earlier this month and Northern aren’t the only ToC with a ‘timetable’. I was also inconvenienced by TPE cutting their services at Sheffield instead of going onto Cleethorpes some hours but some of that is due to driver shortages.

In my opinion this is the direction the railway will be going in, ie a complete rewrite for many operators to produce a reduced even interval service, but...

The problem with that is more leisure routes will go the way of the S&C where you have mid morning trains and late afternoon/early evening trains that cater only to day trippers. On the GEML, commuters are the main demographic. On a weekday you have a pre-Covid service at the moment minus a few extras in the peaks but a Sunday service off peak, which on other parts of the network has a serious chance of becoming permanent the way GBR is headed. We cannot have a railway that only runs services to cater to the main demographic that uses. Otherwise, people flock to their cars, which they have been doing en masse with low interest rates and good PCP deals at the moment.

 

[Watershed]

In my opinion this is the direction the railway will be going in, ie a complete rewrite for many operators to produce a reduced even interval service, but...





It’s a huge task. Think the May 2018 changes x 5. And if it goes wrong, it’s May 2018 x 10. I can’t see how it can take less than 2 years to complete.

The other problem is that there are some lines where services don't lend themselves very well to a moderate but not massive cutback.

It's one thing if a line previously had 6tph to cut that to 4tph, but most lines are on 1tph or 2tph. Cutting either of those in half is unpalatable.