Timetable implications of Avanti West Coast's 805/807 Hitachi AT300 sets

[LNW-GW Joint]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #53 originally in this thread.

In a set of articles on future developments at Avanti and on the WCML in the March Modern Railways, a couple of significant remarks are made about class 805/807 services when they are introduced.
For the first time, Avanti now admit the 110mph Hitachi trains will not match the EPS 125mph performance of the 390/221 tilting trains.
The phrasing is: "coupled with the improved acceleration of the Hitachi trains, this will enable us to narrow the difference in journey times".

The second remark is about deployment, with Birmingham now in the mix.
The 3tph Birmingham service is being altered in Dec 2022 from the present skip-stop pattern to Coventry, with each train stopping at one of Watford Jn, Milton Keynes and Rugby.
The new pattern will be 2x non-stop to Coventry, with the third service calling at all three intermediate stations.
It looks like 80x will be operating the "stoppers" on this route, maximising their acceleration capability.
A second hourly service to Liverpool is still on the cards, but now looks like a more distant prospect.
The aim is to retire the Voyagers as the first objective (so Chester/Wrexham/North Wales/Shrewsbury).
That's if these services resume at anything like their pre-Covid frequency.

 

[800001]

In a set of articles on future developments at Avanti and on the WCML in the March Modern Railways, a couple of significant remarks are made about class 805/807 services when they are introduced.
For the first time, Avanti now admit the 110mph Hitachi trains will not match the EPS 125mph performance of the 390/221 tilting trains.
The phrasing is: "coupled with the improved acceleration of the Hitachi trains, this will enable us to narrow the difference in journey times".

The second remark is about deployment, with Birmingham now in the mix.
The 3tph Birmingham service is being altered in Dec 2022 from the present skip-stop pattern to Coventry, with each train stopping at one of Watford Jn, Milton Keynes and Rugby.
The new pattern will be 2x non-stop to Coventry, with the third service calling at all three intermediate stations.
It looks like 80x will be operating the "stoppers" on this route, maximising their acceleration capability.
A second hourly service to Liverpool is still on the cards, but looks like a more distant prospect.
The aim is to retire the Voyagers as the first objective (so Chester/Wrexham/North Wales/Shrewsbury).
That's if these services resume at anything like their pre-Covid frequency.

Since when have they been a 110mph train? I thought the 805/807 were going to be 125mph?
And it’s always been said they would have to slow for the corners, and the acceleration is improved based on a 390 so wouldn’t have much impact.
So based on that comment in magazine, to me, that’s nothing new, and has been known about since they were ordered.

 

[St. Paddy]

Since when have they been a 110mph train? I thought the 805/807 were going to be 125mph?
And it’s always been said they would have to slow for the corners, and the acceleration is improved based on a 390 so wouldn’t have much impact.
So based on that comment in magazine, to me, that’s nothing new, and has been known about since they were ordered.

Although their maximum speed may be 125mph or more, I’m curious to know if anything more than 110mph on the WCML is permitted for non-tilting stock?

 

[DanNCL]

Since when have they been a 110mph train? I thought the 805/807 were going to be 125mph?
And it’s always been said they would have to slow for the corners, and the acceleration is improved based on a 390 so wouldn’t have much impact.
So based on that comment in magazine, to me, that’s nothing new, and has been known about since they were ordered.

110mph is the max speed for non-tilt trains on any of the routes 805s and 807s will work. They’ll still be 140mph trains like the existing 80x units.

 

[87015]

Although their maximum speed may be 125mph or more, I’m curious to know if anything more than 110mph on the WCML is permitted for non-tilting stock?

Not yet, is planned for their introduction.

 

[TheGrew]

I think technically the section from Wolverhampton to Stafford (which I appreciate is a branch) is cleared for 125mph non-tilt as the Cross Country Voyagers do it.

 

[St. Paddy]

Not yet, is planned for their introduction.

Thanks

 

[43096]

I think technically the section from Wolverhampton to Stafford (which I appreciate is a branch) is cleared for 125mph non-tilt as the Cross Country Voyagers do it.

I’ve been on an HST that’s done 125 on that stretch, too.

 

[800001]

110mph is the max speed for non-tilt trains on any of the routes 805s and 807s will work. They’ll still be 140mph trains like the existing 80x units.

Ah right, I naively Thought they would do 125 on straight track and then slow for curves.

 

[Tynwald]

Tilt as I believe, is for passenger comfort, and not safety.

 

[Watershed]

In a set of articles on future developments at Avanti and on the WCML in the March Modern Railways, a couple of significant remarks are made about class 805/807 services when they are introduced.
For the first time, Avanti now admit the 110mph Hitachi trains will not match the EPS 125mph performance of the 390/221 tilting trains.
The phrasing is: "coupled with the improved acceleration of the Hitachi trains, this will enable us to narrow the difference in journey times".

All rather foreseeable. Lots of talk but it remains to be seen where 125mph non-tilt speeds materialise. Still, nothing like selling a slower journey time as an improvement!

The second remark is about deployment, with Birmingham now in the mix.
The 3tph Birmingham service is being altered in Dec 2022 from the present skip-stop pattern to Coventry, with each train stopping at one of Watford Jn, Milton Keynes and Rugby.
The new pattern will be 2x non-stop to Coventry, with the third service calling at all three intermediate stations.
It looks like 80x will be operating the "stoppers" on this route, maximising their acceleration capability.
A second hourly service to Liverpool is still on the cards, but now looks like a more distant prospect.
The aim is to retire the Voyagers as the first objective (so Chester/Wrexham/North Wales/Shrewsbury).
That's if these services resume at anything like their pre-Covid frequency.

The lack of direct fast services between those stations has long been one of the issues with the VHF timetable, so it's good to see that addressed.

However, the timetable will not be a very even 3tph if two are non-stop Coventry to Euston and the other has 3 additional calls. Still, there's no way around that, and on balance it's probably a better service proposition than alternating stops.

The DfT is, ominously, yet to commit to transferring the released Super Voyagers across to XC.

 

[hexagon789]

110mph is the max speed for non-tilt trains on any of the routes 805s and 807s will work. They’ll still be 140mph trains like the existing 80x units.

I thought they were drsigndd as 125 max as per the EMR 810s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope that doesn't mean losing direct MK to Scotland, as that was a huge gain. I suspect it does, though, and representations need to be made.

 

[Watershed]

I hope that doesn't mean losing direct MK to Scotland, as that was a huge gain. I suspect it does, though, and representations need to be made.

Is that really such a big market? I am all for direct connectivity but sometimes there are tradeoffs that mean it's impossible to satisfy all markets. Just as, for example, there are no longer any direct Bedford to Sheffield services.

 

[JonathanH]

The lack of direct fast services between those stations has long been one of the issues with the VHF timetable, so it's good to see that addressed.

Needs to be on the opposite side of the hour to the current LNR xx49 from Euston to be of any value though. Is it really Avanti's role to carry passengers between Watford and Milton Keynes or Milton Keynes and Rugby. I'd say that it isn't particularly as this would appear to block up multiple paths on the way out of Euston.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ah right, I naively Thought they would do 125 on straight track and then slow for curves.

It's worth reading the whole interview with Avanti managers, but it talks about "making the most of the cant of the track", whatever that means.
There's a parallel interview with NR managers, where there's no mention of any line speed changes on the WCML for 80x.
Other issues are preparing for HS2 and reduced capacity at Euston (loss of P16 for a spell), factors in the Dec 22 timetable revision.

 

[800001]

I thought they were drsigndd as 125 max as per the EMR 810s?

They will have the design speed, and be able to operate at 125mph.
But like others have said, will have to operate at the 110mph restriction of none tilt stock.

 

[stantheman]

When will Pendoiinos be replaced ?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Not any time in the near future, why do they need replacing at the moment anyway? They're undergoing a massive refurbishment at the moment to extend their lives.

 

[james_the_xv]

The new pattern will be 2x non-stop to Coventry, with the third service calling at all three intermediate stations.
It looks like 80x will be operating the "stoppers" on this route, maximising their acceleration capability.

Does this mean 2ph Euston - Scotland via Bhm with one to GLC and one EDB?

pre-Covid i believe this was only 1tph alternating GLC and EDB. Now there’s only 1 per day as the rest terminate at Blackpool, which is a pain.

 

[Watershed]

Does this mean 2ph Euston - Scotland via Bhm with one to GLC and one EDB?

pre-Covid i believe this was only 1tph alternating GLC and EDB. Now there’s only 1 per day as the rest terminate at Blackpool, which is a pain.

I don't see why there would be a frequency increase north of Birmingham as part of this change?

You'd need an awful lot of additional Pendolini to do so, let alone additional paths which simply don't exist (albeit that will have to be conjured up by the time HS2 opens, if there are to be any "classic" services to Scotland).

 

[DanNCL]

I thought they were drsigndd as 125 max as per the EMR 810s?

805s and 807s are effectively the same as 802s and 803s respectively from a technical point of view.

 

[fgwrich]

805s and 807s are effectively the same as 802s and 803s respectively from a technical point of view.

Indeed, the last of the "classic" IET / AT300 design. The EMR body shell being an evolution of the design.

 

[The Planner]

All rather foreseeable. Lots of talk but it remains to be seen where 125mph non-tilt speeds materialise. Still, nothing like selling a slower journey time as an improvement!

There will be very little non tilt 125mph. Mostly 115 or 120 where it is increased.

They will have the design speed, and be able to operate at 125mph.
But like others have said, will have to operate at the 110mph restriction of none tilt stock.

No, there is a plan as above to raise non tilt speeds.

Does this mean 2ph Euston - Scotland via Bhm with one to GLC and one EDB?

pre-Covid i believe this was only 1tph alternating GLC and EDB. Now there’s only 1 per day as the rest terminate at Blackpool, which is a pain.

No, it will be 1tph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that really such a big market? I am all for direct connectivity but sometimes there are tradeoffs that mean it's impossible to satisfy all markets. Just as, for example, there are no longer any direct Bedford to Sheffield services.

It isn't huge, but it isn't tiny either. It will lose some of my money to LNR if I am going to have to change at Crewe

 

[Pumbaa]

Needs to be on the opposite side of the hour to the current LNR xx49 from Euston to be of any value though. Is it really Avanti's role to carry passengers between Watford and Milton Keynes or Milton Keynes and Rugby. I'd say that it isn't particularly as this would appear to block up multiple paths on the way out of Euston.

In the current proposed timetable that’s exactly where it is, so you have evenly spaced connectivity as far as Rugby. Unfortunately the Watford call in the Birmingham via Northampton had to swap to the other, so Watford get their calls about 5 mins apart. But MK and Rugby both benefit.

It isn't huge, but it isn't tiny either. It will lose some of my money to LNR if I am going to have to change at Crewe

It is indeed being withdrawn, the through train will be non-stop south of Coventry. Though smart money is on Dec 22 not happening at the moment, so you may have a little longer to enjoy it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is indeed being withdrawn, the through train will be non-stop south of Coventry. Though smart money is on Dec 22 not happening at the moment, so you may have a little longer to enjoy it.

Shame, as sometimes it's just nice to hole yourself up in 1st for 5 hours and get some work done (though by choice I tend to go via Manchester to split it up unless I do have work to do). I can see the operational benefit, though, and I do prefer 80x over Pendolinos so that's the upside in that 2 out of 3 of the services serving MKC will be 80x.

 

[hooverboy]

Tilt as I believe, is for passenger comfort, and not safety.

not entirely correct.
The tilt function acts like countersteer on a motorbike. By altering the centre of gravity you reduce the lateral(centripetal) force on the track as you go through the curve,
Cant does similar.

beneficial in two ways.
1)reduced track wear
or 2) take the curve faster for the existing resultant force.

 

[hooverboy]

When will Pendoiinos be replaced ?

The pendo's will stay for a while, the first to go will be the voyagers.
I think we should see the first of the new voyager replacement 80x toward the end of this year, with a view to a full roll-out perhaps may 2023 timetable.

 

[The Planner]

In the current proposed timetable that’s exactly where it is, so you have evenly spaced connectivity as far as Rugby. Unfortunately the Watford call in the Birmingham via Northampton had to swap to the other, so Watford get their calls about 5 mins apart. But MK and Rugby both benefit.


It is indeed being withdrawn, the through train will be non-stop south of Coventry. Though smart money is on Dec 22 not happening at the moment, so you may have a little longer to enjoy it.

Decision was meant to be made today by ministers I heard?
MK gets a Liverpool stop now though. Loses the Chester as well.