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May 2022 Timetable Changes

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Goldfish62

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It meets their short-term aim of limiting opex on the railway, yes.

But the longer it goes on, the more occasional travellers that will look to see when they can take a direct train from Reading to Derby for example, see there are no such trains any more, and give up on the railway. So it has an insidious long-term effect, let alone the short-term effect on emissions, congestion etc.

Sadly the government has little motivation to consider factors beyond the balance sheet - essentially because the pandemic has significantly reduced the political importance attached to the railway providing a good level of service.

There's a far higher "column inches to pounds" ratio through bunging a little bit of money on another ludicrous reopening study.
Absolutely correct. A friend of mine wanted to travel from Southampton to Birmingham for the day recently and use the train as he had always done in the past. Based on the paltry service he drove instead.
 
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Starmill

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Who said anything about premium rates? RDW was for years paid at flat rate. Only recently did it go up to time and a quarter. And I'm just answering the point about drivers - there is no shortage of drivers compared to pre-covid
People are pointing out that unfortunately, although there may not be a shortage in the way you choose to define it, there is no budget for overtime unless it is an exceptional case. Therefore some depots cannot cover all of the work that the industry and the travelling public might like in terms of services.

Arrangements vary by depot and by company so it's not as easy as saying there is or isn't a shortage. It comes down to the same generalised point however: the department wants to pay for fewer driving hours than are necccesary to run the services the public would like, or the services as they existed in 2019. Difficult decisions are the result.

So yes, if they don't want to pay for overtime then fine, no problem, but I don't see how we can get close to a pre-covid timetable without either that or a significant recruitment campaign, both of which cost money
By far the most likely outcome is that the service remains degraded and less attractive. And of course, therefore earns less.
 

Rog7

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I'm planning a rail tour of GB in July (~60 trains in 2 weeks) and have been trying to learn when the May 2022 timetable will be published.
Network Rail haven't yet replied to my email (a week ago) but several TOCs have, giving various dates from 20 Feb (clearly wrong) to 26 Apr.

Anybody know any better?
 

Peregrine 4903

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I'm planning a rail tour of GB in July (~60 trains in 2 weeks) and have been trying to learn when the May 2022 timetable will be published.
Network Rail haven't yet replied to my email (a week ago) but several TOCs have, giving various dates from 20 Feb (clearly wrong) to 26 Apr.

Anybody know any better?
Its down to Network Rail when the May 22 timetable will be published. Also not all operators are published at the same time, some have already been published and some are yet to be published.
 

david1212

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Operational Research Computer Allocation of Tickets to Services, invented by BR to provide management information? Why would it possibly no longer be needed with GBR, they still need to be able to work out where the money is earned to drive investment decisions.

The idea of an actual “ORCATS Raid” as a revenue grab from a competitor might be killed off, but I bet the underlying information gathering will go on.

While the analysis must continue with concessions the distribution between operators I presume has ended given, as I understand anyway, they receive a fixed fee.



Absolutely correct. A friend of mine wanted to travel from Southampton to Birmingham for the day recently and use the train as he had always done in the past. Based on the paltry service he drove instead.

This is what the DfT must understand. Southampton - Reading only having a direct hourly service was not exactly generous never mind only every two hours.
Even well timed connections would be some compensation e.g. arrive Reading to connect with Birmingham and onwards services then depart to connect with Birmingham arrival. Similarly at Basingstoke connections with only a short wait.

Far less likely I will take a day out in Bournemouth as both the outward and return trains I have used in the past are still not running. Even with split ticketing it is not a cheap day out. If I could stay a night or two at the split ticket fare* then I would use the less conventiently timed 2 hour frequency trains.

* The reason split ticketing works is because all day returns while the through ticket is an off-peak return so the return valid for 30 days.
 
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Bletchleyite

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This is what the DfT must understand. Southampton - Reading only having a direct hourly service was not exactly generous never mind only every two hours.
Even well timed connections would be some compensation e.g. arrive Reading to connect with Birmingham and onwards services then depart to connect with Birmingham arrival. Similarly at Basingstoke connections with only a short wait.

Basically you have two choices to make a usable railway (unless like with buses it is just a point to point operation). You either need frequency (typical UK approach) or you need planned, guaranteed connections (typical German approach).

At present we have neither. If we are not going to bring back the frequencies, the planning exercise needs to be done so the connections work.
 

Watershed

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While the analysis must continue with concessions the distribution between operators I presume has ended given, as I understand anyway, they receive a fixed fee.





This is what the DfT must understand. Southampton - Reading only having a direct hourly service was not exactly generous never mind only every two hours.
Even well timed connections would be some compensation e.g. arrive Reading to connect with Birmingham and onwards services then depart to connect with Birmingham arrival. Similarly at Basingstoke connections with only a short wait.
It's even worse than that. The service used to be 3tp2h, as alternate Newcastle-Reading services would continue on to Southampton. The current 1tp2h service represents a reduction of two thirds on pre-Covid.

And in fact XC have even cancelled some of those 1tp2h, as a result of the withdrawal of Rest Day Working. Flows like these are amongst the worst affected across the country, seeing a total decimation in service levels. Not to mention the continuing nonsense of dropping stops at Winchester, Brockenhurst etc.

I'm planning a rail tour of GB in July (~60 trains in 2 weeks) and have been trying to learn when the May 2022 timetable will be published.
Network Rail haven't yet replied to my email (a week ago) but several TOCs have, giving various dates from 20 Feb (clearly wrong) to 26 Apr.

Anybody know any better?
I would strongly advice against trying to plan things based on what is currently in the public domain. Things are still too much up in the air for you to be confident that any train you plan on taking will actually run.
 
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Peregrine 4903

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It's even worse than that. The service used to be 3tp2h, as alternate Newcastle-Reading services would continue on to Southampton. The current 1tp2h service represents a reduction of two thirds on the pre-Covid service level. Flows like these are amongst the worst affected across the country.


I would strongly advice against trying to plan things based on what is currently in the public domain. Things are still too much up in the air for you to be confident that any train you plan on taking will actually run.
Eh, most of the May 22 timetables have been finalised now, although they won't all be published yet. In fact most won't be yet.
 

Starmill

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While the analysis must continue with concessions the distribution between operators I presume has ended
It hasn't ended. Critically it cannot do so either because some of the contracts are let by different organisations. Merseyrail's revenue is for Merseytravel to choose how to spend. Transport for Wales' revenue is a matter for Transport for Wales. TfL Rail and London Overground revenues are for TfL to choose how to spend. ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper earn revenues which it is up to Transport Scotland to direct. And of course, Arriva are entitled to the proceeds earnt by Grand Central, and First Group those earnt by Hull Trains and Lumo.

These organisations are free to make their own choices, which can be and are different to those of the DfT.
 

Watershed

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Eh, most of the May 22 timetables have been finalised now, although they won't all be published yet. In fact most won't be yet.
Perhaps, but I would be amazed if that's what actually ends up operating.
 

DaveHarries

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I just had a look at Salisbury for 25th May and it shows two trains departing for the same destination at the same time:

2V92 and 1V94 are both due to leave Salisbury for Worcester Foregate Street at 1112hrs. However whereas 1V94 is the current 0859 departure from Brighton, train 2V92 is shown as arriving from Westbury as 2O07 at 1106hrs. I wonder which will prove to be correct.

Dave
 

Rog7

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I would strongly advice against trying to plan things based on what is currently in the public domain. Things are still too much up in the air for you to be confident that any train you plan on taking will actually run.
My original aim was to do this summer 2021 but once I'd planned it I couldn't get the hotels - they must be close to the stations and too many people were holidaying in UK because of Covid.

So, this year I've booked the hotels (with free cancellation) and am currently assuming that trains that are in both the May 2021 and Dec 2021 timetables, give or take a few minutes, are quite likely to remain in the May 2022 timetable. No, I won't be surprised to discover some are not.

It's a big schedule, catering for some cancellations (on average there'll be 1), and I have a good starting point. Main worries are two trains with frequencies of 3 or 4 hours and planned Sunday engineering.
 

Bald Rick

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I'm planning a rail tour of GB in July (~60 trains in 2 weeks) and have been trying to learn when the May 2022 timetable will be published.
Network Rail haven't yet replied to my email (a week ago) but several TOCs have, giving various dates from 20 Feb (clearly wrong) to 26 Apr.

Anybody know any better?

all May 22 timetables are published, with the exception of GTRs, which I understand is coming next week.

Perhaps, but I would be amazed if that's what actually ends up operating.

With one or two minor changes to come, what you see is what will happen (industrial relations matters aside).
 

david1212

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It hasn't ended. Critically it cannot do so either because some of the contracts are let by different organisations. Merseyrail's revenue is for Merseytravel to choose how to spend. Transport for Wales' revenue is a matter for Transport for Wales. TfL Rail and London Overground revenues are for TfL to choose how to spend. ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper earn revenues which it is up to Transport Scotland to direct. And of course, Arriva are entitled to the proceeds earnt by Grand Central, and First Group those earnt by Hull Trains and Lumo.

These organisations are free to make their own choices, which can be and are different to those of the DfT.

Thanks for this clarification.

Given this should I have written -
ORCATS distribution to operators that have been awarded concessions by the DfT I presume has ended given, as I understand anyway, they receive a fixed fee ?
 

Bald Rick

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ORCATS distribution to operators that have been awarded concessions by the DfT I presume has ended given, as I understand anyway, they receive a fixed fee ?

it hasn’t ended. You still need the allocations out of ORCATS to show which routes / times / markets etc are recovering , and which aren’t.
 

Mainline421

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it hasn’t ended. You still need the allocations out of ORCATS to show which routes / times / markets etc are recovering , and which aren’t.
Except CrossCountry seem to be actively suppressing demand by removing calls at stations (only to, have extra dwell time at the following stop), skewing this data beyond much useful purpose.

It's even worse than that. The service used to be 3tp2h, as alternate Newcastle-Reading services would continue on to Southampton. The current 1tp2h service represents a reduction of two thirds on pre-Covid.

And in fact XC have even cancelled some of those 1tp2h, as a result of the withdrawal of Rest Day Working. Flows like these are amongst the worst affected across the country, seeing a total decimation in service levels. Not to mention the continuing nonsense of dropping stops at Winchester, Brockenhurst etc.
This is beyond ridiculous as they operated a full hourly service from Bournemouth to Manchester throughout the first lockdown, then afterwards when demand increased they reduced it to two-hourly and started skipping stops justified as being for "social distancing," which ended long ago yet is still happening. They're still using roughly the same number of units and staff but providing a much worse service for everyone.

In May there will still be no service at all on the Southampton-Newcastle route, and less than a third of the pre-Covid service south of Reading. These services appeared consistently busy in my experience, and the skipping of stops likely isn't saving anything overall. It may not suit some of the objectives of the treasury, but the DFT need to step in here. I can't see the minimal savings possibly providing value compared with the loss of frequency and through journeys.
 
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Class 466

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SEs Maidstone East to Blackfriars services that were uploaded for May have now gone and the direct off peak one from Ashford has been diverted back into Victoria.
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
I hope this is a temporary error and they reappear. I was looking forward to those as I do quite often travel to Maidstone from Central London and anything that avoids the exceptionally lengthy walk of shame from the Victoria line these days or indeed back in the other direction is a serious Brucie bonus.
 

Watershed

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And ORCATS will be showing the effects of that action.
ORCATS now merely serves to redistribute revenue between different pots within the DfT. A reduction in services will simply result in a slightly larger share of the revenue ending in SWR's pot. It is the reduction in total revenue from such pointless skip-stopping that matters.

Ultimately, these services were designed to call at these stations and they now instead have excess pathing or dwell time. The purported justification of needing longer dwell times "due to social distancing" simply doesn't wash anymore. Reinstating the stops is as close to a "free lunch" as it gets on the railway, therefore XC's reticence to do so utterly baffles me.
 

matt_world2004

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Thanks for this clarification.

Given this should I have written -
ORCATS distribution to operators that have been awarded concessions by the DfT I presume has ended given, as I understand anyway, they receive a fixed fee ?
No the operators still receive ticket revenue. Just any shortfalls in operating costs are met by the dft
 

james_the_xv

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Still only one Avanti Euston - Glasgow via BHM (17:43) with the other services that did make up this service terminating at Blackpool North. Edinburgh still gets 6 trains per day via BHM so why continue to bin off the Glasgow services and restrict them to the Trent Valley? If it's a paths issue, what's changed paths wise north of Preston during Covid?

Surely a better way to do it is alternate Scotland destinations on both TV and via BHM, and just have them departing opposite of each other so there is still at least 1tph to Scotland departing from Euston and both TV and BHM branch get 1tp2hrs to each. Or is that too sensible?:rolleyes:
 

Bletchleyite

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Still only one Avanti Euston - Glasgow via BHM (17:43) with the other services that did make up this service terminating at Blackpool North. Edinburgh still gets 6 trains per day via BHM so why continue to bin off the Glasgow services and restrict them to the Trent Valley?

Staffing. Demand to Glasgow is lower, and you can change onto the fast service at Preston.
 

james_the_xv

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Demand to Glasgow is lower
True, but surely not so low as to only warrant 1 train per day. Demand to Blackpool can't be that much higher (logistical benefits aside) nor do I believe Edinburgh demand is 6 times higher. I'm not necessarily saying to add more journeys to Scotland but just confused as to why they aren't more evenly distributed amongst TV and BHM routes.

you can change onto the fast service at Preston
You can, and I have done so many times but this tends to add 30 mins+ onto the journey and the inconvenience of having to drag heavy baggage off and on the train an extra time and finding another passenger in the seat you booked:p.
 

Bletchleyite

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True, but surely not so low as to only warrant 1 train per day. Demand to Blackpool can't be that much higher (logistical benefits aside) nor do I believe Edinburgh demand is 6 times higher. I'm not necessarily saying to add more journeys to Scotland but just confused as to why they aren't more evenly distributed amongst TV and BHM routes.

Blackpool isn't because of demand, they mostly appear to run near empty. It's just a "terminus of convenience" to avoid them blocking platforms at Preston, a bit like the perennial discussion about Manchester Airport.

Euston-Glasgow "fast" is one of the prime WCML services and very well-used, so they aren't going to be cutting that. The slower services via Brum are useful, but mostly they are busy because people are "priced onto" them with cheaper Advances on the slower services. The old 5-car Voyager service was inadequate, but in reality without that "pricing on" you'd not fill a Pendolino.

You can, and I have done so many times but this tends to add 30 mins+ onto the journey and the inconvenience of having to drag heavy baggage off and on the train an extra time and finding another passenger in the seat you booked:p.

While there are still staffing issues, compromises have to be found, and this is probably one of the lowest-impact ones they could do.
 

Emaharg

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Staffing. Demand to Glasgow is lower, and you can change onto the fast service at Preston.
It is an average 49 minute wait at Carlisle for the following Glasgow Avanti. Not really a good option. However it is about a 12 minute fester at Lancaster with same platform transfer to the TPE Glasgow service.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Blackpool isn't because of demand, they mostly appear to run near empty. It's just a "terminus of convenience" to avoid them blocking platforms at Preston, a bit like the perennial discussion about Manchester Airport.

Expensive way of turning a train around. Pre-COVID certain retired and high placed rail mangers wondered "why" off peak services went there , with around half a dozen inward pax.
 

JonathanH

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Blackpool isn't because of demand, they mostly appear to run near empty. It's just a "terminus of convenience" to avoid them blocking platforms at Preston, a bit like the perennial discussion about Manchester Airport.

Expensive way of turning a train around. Pre-COVID certain retired and high placed rail mangers wondered "why" off peak services went there , with around half a dozen inward pax.
There seems to be something symbolic that Blackpool is felt as if it should have direct trains from London, without considering actual demand or frequency of the local services.
 
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