2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro)

[choochoochoo]

717 cab end doors are only used for emergency egress, and are also quite a lot bigger.

Tube stock uses the cab end (M) door for routine access.

What occasions is the side cab door or saloon access not available that means they need to enter/exit through the nose end ?

 

[py_megapixel]

What occasions is the side cab door or saloon access not available that means they need to enter/exit through the nose end ?

Accessing trains stabled in underground sections of track overnight?

 

[Nym]

What occasions is the side cab door or saloon access not available that means they need to enter/exit through the nose end ?

As above when stabled in tunnels overnight, also when stabled in areas of restricted access, and when stabled in dead end tunnels.

Oh, and when carrying out push out and rescue procedures.
Remember that part of the operational safety case for London Underground is that every driver on every train on the line of a tunnel section can drive every train, and that they should all be able to couple to eachother in an emergency either in the front or in the rear.

 

[DanNCL]

Oh, and when carrying out push out and rescue procedures.
Remember that part of the operational safety case for London Underground is that every driver on every train on the line of a tunnel section can drive every train, and that they should all be able to couple to eachother in an emergency either in the front or in the rear.

If the mock-up is correct, the bit in bold won’t apply on the Piccadilly line during the changeover period between old and new fleets as the new fleet is shown to have Scharfenberg couplers instead of the Wedgelock couplers used on all existing LU stock.

 

[AM9]

If the mock-up is correct, the bit in bold won’t apply on the Piccadilly line during the changeover period between old and new fleets as the new fleet is shown to have Scharfenberg couplers instead of the Wedgelock couplers used on all existing LU stock.

I noticed them. Given the size of the trains, are they a standard type or special mini versions?

 

[DanNCL]

I noticed them. Given the size of the trains, are they a standard type or special mini versions?

I’m not sure. It could just be an error on the mock-up with the actual trains having Wedgelock couplers after all.

 

[bramling]

The square door windows (typisch Siemens, also featuring on Desiros) also hark back nicely to the 1930s stock.

I wouldn’t use the word nicely. The whole thing looks pretty vile to me, to be honest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn’t use the word nicely. The whole thing looks pretty vile to me, to be honest.

TBH I quite like it, it's nicely quirky.

 

[bramling]

What occasions is the side cab door or saloon access not available that means they need to enter/exit through the nose end ?

Very frequently. Any time a member of staff needs to enter or leave a train in a Tube tunnel. The two main situations are when staff need to access the track for whatever reason (for example to inspect a piece of defective equipment or investigate a smouldering), or to access a train stabled in a tunnel siding.

The Jubilee Line messed up on this back in the 1990s when they tried to do something clever on their 96 stock, the door could either open inwards, or fold down to make detrainment steps. What this did was make the door heavy, making it difficult for staff to use as a conventional access door, and prone to breakage. This has never been resolved, and has been an operational headache ever since. The Northern Line ditched the idea on their later 95 stock, and has a separate detrainment ladder which clips on to the door surround.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose it's also worth considering that Tube trains are very low to the track, and so there's not a drop of well over a metre from the body to track level like there is on the mainline, thus not needing the sort of long evacuation staircase that 717s and 777s have. You can see just how low the platforms are at any Tube station.

 

[choochoochoo]

As above when stabled in tunnels overnight, also when stabled in areas of restricted access, and when stabled in dead end tunnels.

Oh, and when carrying out push out and rescue procedures.
Remember that part of the operational safety case for London Underground is that every driver on every train on the line of a tunnel section can drive every train, and that they should all be able to couple to eachother in an emergency either in the front or in the rear.

Thanks for the examples

Why does the driver of a rescuing unit need to access (via nose end door) the unit being rescued ? To rescue a 717 in the Norther City Line the driver of the rescuing unit doesn't need access to the failed unit. Unless the push out is of a train that was dead and uncrewed ?

 

[bramling]

Thanks for the examples

Why does the driver of a rescuing unit need to access (via nose end door) the unit being rescued ? To rescue a 717 in the Norther City Line the driver of the rescuing unit doesn't need access to the failed unit. Unless the push out is of a train that was dead and uncrewed ?

In theory they don’t. However in practice there may well be other staff who will want or need to cross from one train to the other.

You might have a train technician or emergency response staff, for example, even if it’s just to do a walkthrough and check on the welfare of passengers who might have been stuck for a while in a hot tunnel.

It’s worth mentioning that coupling Underground trains together for rescue purposes is exceptionally rare. For something like the Northern Line fleet it will probably have only ever happened in anger a couple of times, certainly since the stock has matured after initial teething issues.

If a train has broken down, it’s more likely response staff will be sent to the train (either by walking down the tunnel or via another train), and in most cases will find a way to get it moving. The rolling stock training provided to drivers has been slimmed down over time, and unfortunately this can manifest itself in unfamiliarity when something does go wrong - especially on the fleets like the 92/96/09 stocks which basically almost never break down or give anything but minor problems.

 

[thomalex]

Auto opening doors are more safe, as it brings in zero need for passengers to interact with the train you only need to go to an Overground platform and stand there for a few minutes to see how many people try to interact with the train when the doors are closed.

The safety benefits auto door opening brings to TFL outweighs a few people getting cold.

Or warm given these will be air conditioned. Personally I'd like to see these operate similar to Thameslink with auto doors on the busier underground stations and push to operate on the quieter overground stations.

 

[Lewlew]

Thanks for the examples

Why does the driver of a rescuing unit need to access (via nose end door) the unit being rescued ? To rescue a 717 in the Norther City Line the driver of the rescuing unit doesn't need access to the failed unit. Unless the push out is of a train that was dead and uncrewed ?

For a push out, the driver wouldn't need to leave the train but they will need open the door to communicate with the other driver. Certain stocks need things isolating on the front too before coupling. Also, need to connect a communications cable to the two so both drivers can also use the cab to cab on both trains.

We also do leap frogging. If a driver becomes incapacitated then the driver on the train behind will move up and step across and assist the first driver/move the train.

 

[Dstock7080]

I’m not sure. It could just be an error on the mock-up with the actual trains having Wedgelock couplers after all.

2024 Stock will indeed have Scharfenberg couplers.

 

[JaJaWa]

The square windows are only on the earlier concept, they are not on the final design



The earlier NTfL (New Tube for London) design was far more classy, I guess it matched with the New Routemaster (NBfL) and that era is now over

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was referring to the Desiro style square door windows which are visible on the latter design.

It does seem they've moved away from Aventra grey in the interior, which is good - it is a bit dingy and 1990s.

 

[rebmcr]

2024 Stock will indeed have Scharfenberg couplers.

Which doesn't necessarily preclude coupling between classes, because coupling adaptors can be carried in each cab during the changeover.

 

[Domh245]

Which doesn't necessarily preclude coupling between classes, because coupling adaptors can be carried in each cab during the changeover.

Unless the S stock is also having it's coupler changed, then they would have to keep the adaptors indefinitely, for the Rayners Lane - Uxbridge & Acton areas

 

[DanNCL]

Unless the S stock is also having it's coupler changed, then they would have to keep the adaptors indefinitely, for the Rayners Lane - Uxbridge & Acton areas

S Stock requires adaptors to couple with 1973 stock already as the couplers are a different height.

 

[Goldfish62]

The square windows are only on the earlier concept, they are not on the final design

View attachment 111952View attachment 111953

The earlier NTfL (New Tube for London) design was far more classy, I guess it matched with the New Routemaster (NBfL) and that era is now over

I didn't like the NTfL concept as I felt it was a backward looking pastiche of the 1938 stock. However I agree that the square edged windows were a mire elegant design than the porthole look.

 

[Dstock7080]

Unless the S stock is also having it's coupler changed, then they would have to keep the adaptors indefinitely, for the Rayners Lane - Uxbridge & Acton areas

S Stock requires adaptors to couple with 1973 stock already as the couplers are a different height.

There are currently no Tube<>Surface coupling adaptors on passenger Stock

 

[Mojo]

LU wouldn’t couple such trains together, in the extremely rare circumstances in which a push out procedure would be required, arrangements would be made for a compatible stock to be brought up behind.

 

[bramling]

I was referring to the Desiro style square door windows which are visible on the latter design.

It does seem they've moved away from Aventra grey in the interior, which is good - it is a bit dingy and 1990s.

1990s trend was for cream! Aventra grey seems to be the 2010s trend.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1990s trend was for cream! Aventra grey seems to be the 2010s trend.

Was it? 158s are mid-90s and as built were grey inside, same with Turbos and Networkers. Many of them were later painted over, Northern painted 158 interiors magnolia and GWR the Turbo interiors that horrid purply colour.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I agree with those who prefer the Abellio-esque stripes moquette over the cluttered, too busy one that will be used.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I was referring to the Desiro style square door windows which are visible on the latter design.

It does seem they've moved away from Aventra grey in the interior, which is good - it is a bit dingy and 1990s.

I really like the grey in the Aventras, it's so much easier on the eye than the horrible clinical white all over the awful Desiro Cities.

 

[py_megapixel]

I agree with those who prefer the Abellio-esque stripes moquette over the cluttered, too busy one that will be used.

It looks like the design being used is an evolution of the "Barman" one currently used on other deep level lines. I would have liked them to do a version of the S-stock moquette but with blue, red, brown and turquoise, though that might become embarrassing for TfL if it turns out they can't afford to order them for the other lines!

The stripes are nice but they're a bit more full-on "space age". That definitely seemed to be the design aim if you look at the original "New Tube for London" promotional materials, but it seems to have been toned down a bit since then and the moquette change may be because of that.

I really like the grey in the Aventras, it's so much easier on the eye than the horrible clinical white all over the awful Desiro Cities.

Yes. I appreciate the need for high capacity but that shouldn't have precluded putting in a decent colour scheme. I have no idea why DfT are so utterly appalling at properly specifying rolling stock.

However it's worth noting that the public haven't yet seen what the "dark theme" Aventra interior feels like in a tunnel... probably much dingier than above ground. With the Piccadilly trains spending more time underground that's probably an important consideration.

 

[100andthirty]

There are currently no Tube<>Surface coupling adaptors on passenger Stock

The first time I ever saw a tube to surface coupler was in a photo of a class 483 (1938 tube stock) coupled to a class 484 (ex D stock). That was this year and it looked very sturdy

I have no idea why DfT are so utterly appalling at properly specifying rolling stock.

As far as I'm aware, none of the Aventras delivered or on order have been specified by DfT. All were specified by TfL or by First, Abellio and Trenitalia owned TOCs as part of franchise bids in one way or another.

 

[py_megapixel]

As far as I'm aware, none of the Aventras delivered or on order have been specified by DfT. All were specified by TfL or by First, Abellio and Trenitalia owned TOCs as part of franchise bids in one way or another.

I was talking about the Desiro Cities for Thameslink.