Thameslink ‘Core’ major disruption (04/04)

[Horizon22]

Thanks.
So 1. driver error or 2. pan automatically raised when train was standing in northbound plat at CT waiting to go south.

And even then, 2. would have been driver error if it is known that this will happen as there is a procedure in place to mitigate against it.

 

[Need2]

Thanks.
So 1. driver error or 2. pan automatically raised when train was standing in northbound plat at CT waiting to go south.

I’m under the impression that even if you’ve left Smithfield’s, so going into the northbound platform in a southbound direction and stop then the pans will automatically raise. Another poster says this can’t happen unless there’s a fault.
All I know is that I always turn the power selector switch to DC before I leave Smithfield’s and don’t change it back to auto until I’m at Blackfriars.

 

[Western Sunset]

Indeed...

 

[387star]

I’m under the impression that even if you’ve left Smithfield’s, so going into the northbound platform in a southbound direction and stop then the pans will automatically raise. Another poster says this can’t happen unless there’s a fault.
All I know is that I always turn the power selector switch to DC before I leave Smithfield’s and don’t change it back to auto until I’m at Blackfriars.

Ah yes I remember this was briefed a while back
Still you can see why this could be overlooked if concentrating on something else.

 

[ComUtoR]

It's happened twice in the last year. Obviously how much it costs is going to be a highly relevant consideration, but it's hardly great to admit "we're going to skip this expense and accept that the Core will avoidably go tits-up twice a year"!

Twice a year is a tiny fraction of the number of trains that run through 'The Core'. For something with minimal impact, no loss of life or injury, and has an unacceptable cost ratio.. Then yes, they will absolutely skip the expense.

You could say the same about SPADs or overspeeds really. "Well they don't happen very often, and it would cost a lot to stop them, so we'll accept them as the cost of doing business". The installation of TPWS etc. (at considerable cost) proves that this is not an acceptable way of dealing with things.

How many lives has TPWS potentially saved? How many train crashes have been prevented by TPWS, How many SPADs have been prevented ?

... the 'do nothing' option, which is being advocated by some in this case.

Nobody is advocating 'do nothing' There is a difference between doing nothing and using a chainsaw to open your beer.

...if the wheels are moving under DC power. Which has been the root cause of each of these incidents.

Sorry, are you suggesting that the pan was raised on the move and you may have evidence to support this ? The pans are clearly raised and the unit moving but I have never seen anything posted that has stated the pans have been raised on the move. Also, this still wouldn't be the root cause of the incidents. You will need to go one step forward and ask why and how was the pan raised.

313s used to have the Buzzer when you were on Both AC/DC, that you could override with a button, briefly. That could be a solution between City and Farringdon.

The dual voltage alarms were also used on 319s yet they still smashed pantographs. It's a 'solution' that was tried and used on a regular basis but still didn't prevent incidents.

You would notice the power dropping out on the HMI. There is a motoring Icon which would change from White to Yellow, Then Black. So you be aware you'd lost power before you even got to Blackfriars...

As you are a 'Driver of sorts' and you have discussed GTR before I'll assume that you are at least clued up with the 700s. Surprisingly, it's VERY easy to miss. Even if it dropped to yellow you generally ignore it because you get the yellow icon on a regular basis. Even if you then got the 90 minute warning timer come up you would have a brief glance and quickly ignore it because of the number of times you see it without issue. The other issue is kinda obvious...

The lack of acceleration up hill would also be a clue.

Meh, I reckon I could coast it (if I wasn't stopping at that stupid signal !!!)

However.. The obvious issue is that the unit is still moving with the pan up. Even if the unit cuts out the unit.

It's about some more preventative measures..

Agreed, just ones on balance and that would a) work and b) not cost millions.

All I know is that I always turn the power selector switch to DC before I leave Smithfield’s and don’t change it back to auto until I’m at Blackfriars.

Weird isn't it. The unit had to be switched out of DC mode deliberately.....

 

[43066]

Yes, the only way to get from Smithfield southbound is via the Northbound line and cross over south of City Thameslink. Then would have stopped in the small open section before arriving at Blackfriars (as the original photo suggests).

For whatever reason, the procedures weren't followed correctly with this particular move and the pan was raised whilst still leaving.

View attachment 112655

I’m under the impression that even if you’ve left Smithfield’s, so going into the northbound platform in a southbound direction and stop then the pans will automatically raise. Another poster says this can’t happen unless there’s a fault.
All I know is that I always turn the power selector switch to DC before I leave Smithfield’s and don’t change it back to auto until I’m at Blackfriars.

Thanks both.

That clarifies things for me actually as I’d forgotten that trains leaving Smithfield have to enter the Northbound platform at city TL. I also hadn’t appreciated that the balise system isn’t smart enough to detect which end the unit is being driven from.

I suppose this does expose a bit of a vulnerability for out of course working as the core is fully bi-di and, if a train sat down in the city TL southbound platform, following southbound trains would be routed around it via the northbound. Repeating this error would be a risk for each of them.

@Need2, presumably if a train runs into Smithfield the southbound cab selector will generally be in auto and the driver will need to remember to switch it to DC? If so that also increases risk.

 

[dosxuk]

I still don't understand why the train can't have all manner of alarms go off of you try and take power from the DC with the pan extended.

 

[westcoaster]

I’m under the impression that even if you’ve left Smithfield’s, so going into the northbound platform in a southbound direction and stop then the pans will automatically raise. Another poster says this can’t happen unless there’s a fault.
All I know is that I always turn the power selector switch to DC before I leave Smithfield’s and don’t change it back to auto until I’m at Blackfriars.

Auto changeover does not happen in this scenario.

I still don't understand why the train can't have all manner of alarms go off of you try and take power from the DC with the pan extended.

Because it is not possible as I previously explained at length.

 

[Need2]

@Need2, presumably if a train runs into Smithfield the southbound cab selector will generally be in auto and the driver will need to remember to switch it to DC? If so that also increases risk.

When you go into Smithfield’s you must have the power selector in dc mode only, when fully in and stopped you reset it to auto.
When you leave Smithfield’s you can drive out in auto (I always select dc).
The recent brief we had was that if we stop (and only if we stop) at City platform then we must contact signaller and tell him pans down and in dc.
@westcoaster states (I have no reason to doubt him) that the unit will not automatically change from dc to ac when you are in the northbound platform going southbound.
So in the 2 most recent incidents the driver must have manually selected ac.
If they did then I do not know why!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

When you go into Smithfield’s you must have the power selector in dc mode only, when fully in and stopped you reset it to auto.
When you leave Smithfield’s you can drive out in auto (I always select dc).
The recent brief we had was that if we stop (and only if we stop) at City platform then we must contact signaller and tell him pans down and in dc.
@westcoaster states (I have no reason to doubt him) that the unit will not automatically change from dc to ac when you are in the northbound platform going southbound.
So in the 2 most recent incidents the driver must have manually selected ac.
If they did then I do not know why!

As your a driver on this route your insight is very useful but it does seem bizarre that having driven out on DC you would press pan up in CTY as this is not an action a train in normal service would normally do travelling Southbound. ie no confirmation bias to do the same thing. Of course the OTMDR will have all the answers but without the need for RAIB involvement we will be kept in the dark unless politicians kick up a fuss (unlikely).

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not talking about the ADD operation of a Pan...
You would notice the power dropping out on the HMI. There is a motoring Icon which would change from White to Yellow, Then Black. So you be aware you'd lost power before you even got to Blackfriars...

The lack of acceleration up hill would also be a clue.

how would a train, on DC, but with the pan up, stop accelerating?

 

[Western Sunset]

Twice a year is a tiny fraction of the number of trains that run through 'The Core'. For something with minimal impact, no loss of life or injury, and has an unacceptable cost ratio..

I think twice is one too many...

I know there's a three-position changeover toggle switch labelled AC/AUTO/DC that has already been mentioned, but is there an actual separate pan up/pan down switch too? Or does the AC/DC switch automatically raise/lower the pan?

 

[43066]

When you go into Smithfield’s you must have the power selector in dc mode only, when fully in and stopped you reset it to auto.
When you leave Smithfield’s you can drive out in auto (I always select dc).

Thanks. So once you’ve driven in on DC and changed ends, when you set up the cab at the south end, the selector switch will presumably be in auto and you have to to remember to actively set it to DC? I could see that step being easily missed if it’s something you don’t have to do at any other location.

states (I have no reason to doubt him) that the unit will not automatically change from dc to ac when you are in the northbound platform going southbound.
So in the 2 most recent incidents the driver must have manually selected ac.
If they did then I do not know why!

Sorry missed this bit - yep agreed on the face of it that seems strange.

how would a train, on DC, but with the pan up, stop accelerating?

In theory it should do so because of the ADD activating when the arm overextends due to nothing above it, even without hitting something.

Unless that deactivates when the unit is in DC mode?!

 

[Western Sunset]

Just to clarify. So on departing Smithfield, the train can leave on either the AUTO or DC setting. If it is stopped in the (northbound) plat at CT, if the switch is in AUTO, the pan will raise automatically? Is that right?
Then on departing (still in AUTO setting) southbound over the scissors crossover, will there be any indication to the driver that the pan is in the raised position?

 

[Need2]

Just to clarify. So on departing Smithfield, the train can leave on either the AUTO or DC setting. If it is stopped in the (northbound) plat at CT, if the switch is in AUTO, the pan will raise automatically? Is that right?
Then on departing (still in AUTO setting) southbound over the scissors crossover, will there be any indication to the driver that the pan is in the raised position?

Correct, you can leave in auto. There is no brief to select dc. I only do it for a belt and braces approach!
When stopped in the platform at city I was under the impression that the auto changeover would start, @ westcoaster says this cannot happen and I am in no position to refute it as I have not actually seen it happen.
If the auto changeover did take place then I fail to see how anyone could not notice as the power mode switch will flash white and the power supply selector will flash yellow.
If the driver did miss this then the only indication the driver would have is a missable little ac icon on the hmi.

 

[ComUtoR]

So in the 2 most recent incidents the driver must have manually selected ac.
If they did then I do not know why!

Which is the single most important question. The why this happened is what needs to be addressed so any reoccurrence can be prevented.

As your a driver on this route your insight is very useful but it does seem bizarre that having driven out on DC you would press pan up in CTY as this is not an action a train in normal service would normally do travelling Southbound. ie no confirmation bias to do the same thing.

This isn't confirmation bias. Apologies to any Driver or Manager here, and my caveat is that I haven't see any part of the investigations/learning reviews, but I see this as more a unconscious competency situation. Whilst we have moved away from that model it is still part of why incidents like this happen.

Of course the OTMDR will have all the answers but without the need for RAIB involvement we will be kept in the dark unless politicians kick up a fuss (unlikely).

The OTMR/JRU will NOT have all the answers. Anyone who has access to an OTMR/JRU will certainly understand that. It only provides data.

I think twice is one too many...

I do too but that doesn't change the reasons why huge technological changes don't happen after minimal incidents.

I know there's a three-position changeover toggle switch labelled AC/AUTO/DC that has already been mentioned, but is there an actual separate pan up/pan down switch too? Or does the AC/DC switch automatically raise/lower the pan?

The switch will raise/lower the pan. It also flashes when your changing it and there is an indication of what mode you are in on the HMI. What could be possible is an audible cue could be added when switching.

Just to clarify. So on departing Smithfield, the train can leave on either the AUTO or DC setting.

Best practice is to leave in DC mode. There were issues with using the auto mode and/or Drivers selecting AC in Smithfield and then getting an ADD. This appears to have been trained out successfully. Pan up in Smithfield is pretty rare. (no deadwires, alarms, or major infrastructure changes needed)

will there be any indication to the driver that the pan is in the raised position?

The Driver has an indication on the HMI when in AC or DC mode.

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks for all the above. Reckon I could confidently drive a 700 out of Smithfield now and not wreck the pan...

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

As an occasional user of this line... and the Sutton loop.... one gets used to the unpredictability of things railway but there two takeaways:

a) when something goes wrong on the core, it tends to go very wrong and the consequences last for hours, and
b) the Sutton loop is always the one that gets caped first (OK, I know the reasons why...), but this is the one that causes more problems to this user at least!

In view of this, isn't the higher level question here that of what can be done stop trains ending up in Smithfield sidings in the first place, ie. reduce the risk of suffiering all of the various AC/DC issues in the first place?!! I realise it's the long standing bolt hole etc. etc. and marks the historic frontier between the empires of Sir Herbert Walker and Sir William Stanier, SR/LMR etc. (this section always feels like running under East Berlin in DDR times...) but as TL becomes the 'high frequency metro', its use becomes less plausible: once a train is in there it's essentially going to be stuck all day. Perrhaps three other options might now need to be considered:

a) even better maintenance of track and train to further reduce the risk that trains have to be taken OOU at all. I mean, even better maintenance: as the only place in Europe that I can think of that attempts a 3rd rail/OHLE transition on a busy route (24tph, as you all know... at least one day...!!!!) (I don't think the WLL counts.. although the NLL comes close), it surely is essential to make maximum effort to reduce this risk.
b) using Plats 3/4 at Blackfriars as a refuge (particularly P4 as it doesn't seem to have any use in the middle of the day in normal times)
c) running trains forward OOU to Cricklewood or Bowes Park to get them out of the way more easily and to somewhere that fitters can attend if there is an issue other than DC to AC..

 

[zwk500]

As an occasional user of this line... and the Sutton loop.... one gets used to the unpredictability of things railway but there two takeaways:

a) when something goes wrong on the core, it tends to go very wrong and the consequences last for hours, and
b) the Sutton loop is always the one that gets caped first (OK, I know the reasons why...), but this is the one that causes more problems to this user at least!

In view of this, isn't the higher level question here that of what can be done stop trains ending up in Smithfield sidings in the first place, ie. reduce the risk of suffiering all of the various AC/DC issues in the first place?!! I realise it's the long standing bolt hole etc. etc. and marks the historic frontier between the empires of Sir Herbert Walker and Sir William Stanier, SR/LMR etc. (this section always feels like running under East Berlin in DDR times...) but as TL becomes the 'high frequency metro', its use becomes less plausible: once a train is in there it's essentially going to be stuck all day. Perrhaps three other options might now need to be considered:

a) even better maintenance of track and train to further reduce the risk that trains have to be taken OOU at all. I mean, even better maintenance: as the only place in Europe that I can think of that attempts a 3rd rail/OHLE transition on a busy route (24tph, as you all know... at least one day...!!!!) (I don't think the WLL counts.. although the NLL comes close), it surely is essential to make maximum effort to reduce this risk.
b) using Plats 3/4 at Blackfriars as a refuge (particularly P4 as it doesn't seem to have any use in the middle of the day in normal times)
c) running trains forward OOU to Cricklewood or Bowes Park to get them out of the way more easily and to somewhere that fitters can attend if there is an issue other than DC to AC..

Standard procedure for a train that fails to changeover is, I believe, to send it back from whence it came. Trains with other issues could fail at any time and changing smithfields doesn't help with that. Additional maintenance would struggle to be justified on the number of failures due to track condition in the core.
Platforms 3 and 4 were used pre covid by SE services as well, leaving an 8 car unit in these platforms all day would prevent them from running.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thanks for all the above. Reckon I could confidently drive a 700 out of Smithfield now and not wreck the pan...

Problems occur for various reasons. I can, and have, driven into and out of Smithfield without smashing the pan or making an error. However, how many times can you go without making a single error ? Once, Twice, a Thousand times ? You get to a point where you are automating tasks so often that you just stop thinking about it. Those are the moments when error creeps in and you make a mistake. The flip side is where you may have done it once, but then don't do it for a few months or even a couple of years or you do it so infrequent that you are now error prone because of the skill or knowledge fade.

I've never liked Auto mode on the 700s because we have become reliant on it. The skills fade and knowledge fade starts to increase risk of incident. Human error is very real but people will often overlook where the machine makes an error or a fault occurs. As Humans we tend to filter out superfluous information. The HMI is great but after a week I guarantee you just don't notice the AC/DC light as much or the little row of icons. The details fade into background 'noise'

Driving is the easy bit.....

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As an occasional user of this line... and the Sutton loop.... one gets used to the unpredictability of things railway but there two takeaways:

a) when something goes wrong on the core, it tends to go very wrong and the consequences last for hours, and
b) the Sutton loop is always the one that gets caped first (OK, I know the reasons why...), but this is the one that causes more problems to this user at least!

In view of this, isn't the higher level question here that of what can be done stop trains ending up in Smithfield sidings in the first place, ie. reduce the risk of suffiering all of the various AC/DC issues in the first place?!! I realise it's the long standing bolt hole etc. etc. and marks the historic frontier between the empires of Sir Herbert Walker and Sir William Stanier, SR/LMR etc. (this section always feels like running under East Berlin in DDR times...) but as TL becomes the 'high frequency metro', its use becomes less plausible: once a train is in there it's essentially going to be stuck all day. Perrhaps three other options might now need to be considered:

a) even better maintenance of track and train to further reduce the risk that trains have to be taken OOU at all. I mean, even better maintenance: as the only place in Europe that I can think of that attempts a 3rd rail/OHLE transition on a busy route (24tph, as you all know... at least one day...!!!!) (I don't think the WLL counts.. although the NLL comes close), it surely is essential to make maximum effort to reduce this risk.
b) using Plats 3/4 at Blackfriars as a refuge (particularly P4 as it doesn't seem to have any use in the middle of the day in normal times)
c) running trains forward OOU to Cricklewood or Bowes Park to get them out of the way more easily and to somewhere that fitters can attend if there is an issue other than DC to AC..

The 9Rxx Gatwick to Bedford service also get canned straight away which is fair enough if they switched the 9J's to a Horsham to L.Bdge(C) service but they don't. One observation i did see was the Rainhams were turned in P4&P5 at L.Bdge which was good and giving all the bi-di working available they could do more of that.

The c/o process under normal running is very reliable giving the frequency of use.

 

[Western Sunset]

I wonder how often an individual driver goes into/out of Smithfield? Weekly, monthly, yearly? As the approach is from the south and the sdgs are 3rd rail only, is there ever a need for the AUTO setting whilst down there? Do trains ever leave Smithfield, reverse at CT and head north?

 

[43066]

is there ever a need for the AUTO setting whilst down there?

That’s the point I was trying to tease out earlier. AIUI the selector in the south end cab will be left in auto by default, so a conscious decision to switch it to DC will be needed.

 

[Western Sunset]

Is the setting on AUTO for 99.9% of the time?
Is City Thameslink the only location where a physical changeover has to be made on the entire Thameslink network, if one is stopped in the northbound platform when exiting Smithfield and heading south?

 

[Need2]

That’s the point I was trying to tease out earlier. AIUI the selector in the south end cab will be left in auto by default, so a conscious decision to switch it to DC will be needed.

The only time in ‘normal’ running you would need to touch the power mode switch is when you have to select DC before entering and exiting Smithfield’s.
99.9% of the time the switch will be set to auto in both cabs.

Is the setting on AUTO for 99.9% of the time?

Please see above

Is City Thameslink the only location where a physical changeover has to be made on the entire Thameslink network, if one is stopped in the northbound platform when exiting Smithfield and heading south?

Not a changeover, no. You would be in dc mode anyway and using dc as Smithfield’s is dc only.
If, for any reason you stop at city p1 when going south you must contact the signaller and inform him/her that (after checking the hmi and pantograph cameras) the pans are down.
I will try and upload a screenshot of the June 2021 route guide that probably explains it better than me!

Attached are the June 2021 route guides at Smithfield’s

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks; really interesting and informative.

 

[choochoochoo]

So looks like the NCL power change over at drayton park is going automatic the same way as that in the core.

And they're taking out the Auto Power Control magnet on approach to the DC section.

Seems like a silly idea to take away the something that helps stop a driver accidentally driving into 3rd rail territory with their pan up. Do these Siemens trains not like an open VCB whilst an automatic power change is taking place ?

 

[uglymonkey]

What happens to the Driver when this occurs - obviously a "meeting without coffee" but the cost of the delays must be astonomical , add in that pantograph and overhead damage ? Disciplined ? Not fired surely - final warning? - If you caused this amount of delay or damage equivalent in any other industry - what would the sanction be?

 

[whoosh]

Any incident is added to your Safety of the Line record. Usually retraining (what strategies can you put in place to stop it happening again) and extra monitoring via ride outs and downloads for a period of time.
If the safety of the line record has items on it already, or if the driver is newly qualified, then that will be a factor, along with how serious the incident was, as to how long the retraining lasts, and how often and how long the monitoring via ride outs and downloads occur.

Network Rail can sometimes get involved, with very serious incidents or an addition to an already poor record, and the driver may then have to have a meeting with a 'panel' - their Union Rep, Managers and Network Rail management to come to a consensus as to how to proceed. Sometimes this ends up as being taken off mainline driving duties and placed on 'shed and ferry' work between a station and sidings for a period, and sometimes ends up with the driver being taken off driving altogether and having to apply for another role in the company, or, fairly rarely, just sacked.

 

[uglymonkey]

That sounds good, more training and like the AIB, "how do we stop this happening again" mindset, rather than looking for sanction.