Crossrail - Construction updates and progress towards opening (now expected 24 May 2022)

[JaJaWa]

How odd. Same platform at LBG, 4 days later.

That new London Cable Car branding is probably bigger news:


Anyway – all of these signs are wrong. The signage standard says that "line" should be added to the other lines when appearing alongside Elizabeth line on the Tube Map for consistency, and on line diagrams they should all appear without "line" (presumably also for consistency without having to replace every single line diagram to change the other lines to "line"):


Credit: TfL

Line diagrams like this have been correctly installed on the DLR):

Credit: Diamond Geezer

Bond Street "Elizabeth line station opening 2022" and "Elizabeth line services towards Heathrow and Reading depart from Paddington National Rail platforms" are marked on the line diagrams on the Elizabeth line, here's how those will appear:

 

[stuu]

I guess I should have been clearer, meaning it wasn't reversing 12tph (ie reversing the half of the service that was not continuing down the GWML) that had not been done before.

Who "deemed it necessary"? And why does reversing the same 12tph at the other ends, at Abbey Wood (or Shenfield) not require auto-reversing? I believe there are three reversing sidings at Old Oak. 4tph each? Why does that need auto-reverse on the move? These are reasonable questions that have received no answer.

It's a very good question. I suspect the answer is that the saving in opex over 60 years or whatever period the benefits are calculated over means that it is worthwhile spending money on getting the software right upfront. I have a vague memory that it means one less train is needed to run the service as well, so the cost of that and it's lifetime maintenance need to be taken into account.

Or possibly a Siemens salesman did a very good pitch

 

[coppercapped]

I guess I should have been clearer, meaning it wasn't reversing 12tph (ie reversing the half of the service that was not continuing down the GWML) that had not been done before.

Who "deemed it necessary"? And why does reversing the same 12tph at the other ends, at Abbey Wood (or Shenfield) not require auto-reversing? I believe there are three reversing sidings at Old Oak. 4tph each? Why does that need auto-reverse on the move? These are reasonable questions that have received no answer.

Restricted space ? Isn't the whole reason why trains are all driven a couple of miles beyond Paddington, what I believe is the longest distance in the country trains need to go to a reversing siding, precisely because at Old Oak there is very considerable space in railway lands to build their facilities?

Just to underline what Snow1964 wrote in post #1,440 , the Crossrail reversing sidings are at Westbourne Park so are about 1.5km west of the Paddington Crossrail platforms. Old Oak Common is, as I am sure you know, about 3.5km further west and apart from the reception sidings for the maintenance dépôt there are no reversing sidings there at the moment. If I have understood all the bumpf concerning the new OOC HS2 station this may change when the station on the GWML is built.

 

[Roast Veg]

The signage standard says that "line" should be added to the other lines when appearing alongside Elizabeth line on the Tube Map for consistency, and on line diagrams they should all appear without "line"

Interesting, thank you.

 

[thomalex]

That new London Cable Car branding is probably bigger news:
View attachment 113694

Anyway – all of these signs are wrong. The signage standard says that "line" should be added to the other lines when appearing alongside Elizabeth line on the Tube Map for consistency, and on line diagrams they should all appear without "line" (presumably also for consistency without having to replace every single line diagram to change the other lines to "line"):
View attachment 113689
View attachment 113690
Credit: TfL

Line diagrams like this have been correctly installed on the DLR):
View attachment 113691View attachment 113692
Credit: Diamond Geezer

Bond Street "Elizabeth line station opening 2022" and "Elizabeth line services towards Heathrow and Reading depart from Paddington National Rail platforms" are marked on the line diagrams on the Elizabeth line, here's how those will appear:
View attachment 113693

Will be interesting to see if they go for a double or solid line for the Elizabeth line. The tube map example you've posted show a double line, yet the stop diagrams have a solid line.

 

[Watershed]

It's a very good question. I suspect the answer is that the saving in opex over 60 years or whatever period the benefits are calculated over means that it is worthwhile spending money on getting the software right upfront. I have a vague memory that it means one less train is needed to run the service as well, so the cost of that and it's lifetime maintenance need to be taken into account.

Or possibly a Siemens salesman did a very good pitch

It's unlikely that they will be reversing there for 60 years though. Though there are no guarantees, I would have thought it highly likely that trains which terminate at Paddington LL will be extended to OOC as part of the construction of the HS2/Interchange station there. Which might open something on the order of 10 years from now.

 

[DC1989]

Will be interesting to see if they go for a double or solid line for the Elizabeth line. The tube map example you've posted show a double line, yet the stop diagrams have a solid line.

I believe it's going to be a double line, although personally I think it should be a solid

 

[stuu]

It's unlikely that they will be reversing there for 60 years though. Though there are no guarantees, I would have thought it highly likely that trains which terminate at Paddington LL will be extended to OOC as part of the construction of the HS2/Interchange station there. Which might open something on the order of 10 years from now.

True, but a) OOC wasn't a thing when Crossrail was designed, and b) the functionality of the software will still exist, so it can be used at OOC as well

 

[dosxuk]

However did this sort of issue not be identified at any time since 2018, when they were "months away from opening"?

Radio interference is very often the sort of thing that doesn't show itself until you try doing things in anger. If it's an intermittent issue then the likelihood of detection is minimal until you start noticing weird things are happening. I have little doubt a full survey will have been done before and during the construction, but that won't pick up everything, especially if it's something intermittent, time related or related to other works that have happened in that area after the survey. Once you start getting into things like cross channel interference and the sort of interactions that are possible between different radio systems, it's simply not possible to detect these ahead of time before you've built them.

 

[rebmcr]

It's a very good question. I suspect the answer is that the saving in opex over 60 years or whatever period the benefits are calculated over means that it is worthwhile spending money on getting the software right upfront. I have a vague memory that it means one less train is needed to run the service as well, so the cost of that and it's lifetime maintenance need to be taken into account.

Or possibly a Siemens salesman did a very good pitch

It's unlikely that they will be reversing there for 60 years though. Though there are no guarantees, I would have thought it highly likely that trains which terminate at Paddington LL will be extended to OOC as part of the construction of the HS2/Interchange station there. Which might open something on the order of 10 years from now.

There is an additional benefit that trialling and perfecting the tech here 'unlocks' its use elsewhere on the TfL network.

Will be interesting to see if they go for a double or solid line for the Elizabeth line. The tube map example you've posted show a double line, yet the stop diagrams have a solid line.

I believe it's going to be a double line, although personally I think it should be a solid

Overground is double line on maps and solid on (some) line diagrams.

 

[Watershed]

There is an additional benefit that trialling and perfecting the tech here 'unlocks' its use elsewhere on the TfL network.

Though undoubtedly many more problems will be discovered as soon as any attempt is made to use it elsewhere! The systems used appear to be too complex for their own good.

 

[Taunton]

There is an additional benefit that trialling and perfecting the tech here 'unlocks' its use elsewhere on the TfL network.

I can't think of another TfL terminus where they reverse beyond the station* where the driver might be walking through meantime and thus saving personnel. All the high-density reverses (Victoria at Brixton, Jubilee at Stratford, etc) take place at the platform, obviously driven in and out.

* : Apart from DLR at Bank, wholly automated there for the last quarter-century, but with none of this Crossrail complexity.

 

[Dstock7080]

I can't think of another TfL terminus where they reverse beyond the station* where the driver might be walking through meantime and thus saving personnel. All the high-density reverses (Victoria at Brixton, Jubilee at Stratford, etc) take place at the platform, obviously driven in and out.

Barking H&C has been rumoured for installation

 

[rebmcr]

I can't think of another TfL terminus where they reverse beyond the station* where the driver might be walking through meantime and thus saving personnel. All the high-density reverses (Victoria at Brixton, Jubilee at Stratford, etc) take place at the platform, obviously driven in and out.

* : Apart from DLR at Bank, wholly automated there for the last quarter-century, but with none of this Crossrail complexity.

Adapting the layout at Brixton (while not trivial) is not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[stuu]

There is an additional benefit that trialling and perfecting the tech here 'unlocks' its use elsewhere on the TfL network.

Surely it's a function of the CBTC system? So only works with lines with the same signalling - i.e. none of the rest of the network

 

[Roast Veg]

Surely it's a function of the CBTC system? So only works with lines with the same signalling - i.e. none of the rest of the network

It could be developed for any signalling system (including the SSR resignalling) and the safety case/training material etc. would be transferrable.

 

[t_packer]

In other signage news, the roundels at West Drayton are now showing “Elizabeth Line” (new this week!)

This seems interesting because the roundels themselves have been there for some while, there was some kind of sign lay on top attached with zip ties so they read “TfL Rail” until this week. So, TfL have sent someone clambering up to switch them over. I was expecting them to say TfL Rail for a while after the launch until someone realised, but no! They’re clearly on top of branding and things are being intentionally switched to Elizabeth Line.

 

[Basil Jet]

Overground is double line on maps and solid on (some) line diagrams.

Same as DLR

In other signage news, the roundels at West Drayton are now showing “Elizabeth Line” (new this week!)

This seems interesting because the roundels themselves have been there for some while, there was some kind of sign lay on top attached with zip ties so they read “TfL Rail” until this week. So, TfL have sent someone clambering up to switch them over. I was expecting them to say TfL Rail for a while after the launch until someone realised, but no! They’re clearly on top of branding and things are being intentionally switched to Elizabeth Line.

There are no roundels of any colour at the Cowcross Street entrances to Farringdon Station, although there is a purple one at the Liz building near Barbican Station, and an Arrow Of Indecision on the Thameslink station. I think there must be some sort of heritage rule that forbids roundels of any colour in Cowcross Street, but allows the Arrow Of Indecision, which seems odd. There are also no roundels at Great Portland Street, or at the main entrance of Edgware Road Circle station, presumably also for heritage reasons.

 

[AM9]

Who "deemed it necessary"? And why does reversing the same 12tph at the other ends, at Abbey Wood (or Shenfield) not require auto-reversing?

Because at both Abbey Wood and Shenfield, all Lizzy line trains terminate at platforms, so other than managing the conflicting moves between the down line to the up side platform and the down side platform to the up line, everything takes place just like most other two platform end of line turnarounds.

 

[Horizon22]

I guess I should have been clearer, meaning it wasn't reversing 12tph (ie reversing the half of the service that was not continuing down the GWML) that had not been done before.

Who "deemed it necessary"? And why does reversing the same 12tph at the other ends, at Abbey Wood (or Shenfield) not require auto-reversing? I believe there are three reversing sidings at Old Oak. 4tph each? Why does that need auto-reverse on the move? These are reasonable questions that have received no answer.

Restricted space ? Isn't the whole reason why trains are all driven a couple of miles beyond Paddington, what I believe is the longest distance in the country trains need to go to a reversing siding, precisely because at Old Oak there is very considerable space in railway lands to build their facilities?

Obviously the service splits for Shenfield & Abbey Wood so it’s less and both and actually personally I think 2 platforms only at Abbey Wood is going to become quite the operational constraint. They seem to be going OK at the moment, but I’ve seen trains backed up to Custom House if there’s a fault in a platform in shadow operations.

My understand is the turnaround times being as short as they are have mandated auto-reverse and without a platform it’s not easy to step up drivers as they are planning to do with Abbey Wood. I don’t know who has deemed it necessary, but my guess is that someone has or it wouldn’t be progressed. I would agree it seems expensive as it won’t be going on long-term as the future plan is for Old Oak Common station to see terminators in the not long distant future (let’s say ~5-7 years).

The reversing siding is not “a couple of miles”. It’s about 90 seconds from Paddington to Westbourne Park.

 

[Disco Bat]

In the most recent video on the crossrail YouTube channel there’s a bit where they’re talking about bench design and there’s a shot of a bench at Paddington low level with two dispatch bats on it. I assumed that drivers would dispatch trains themselves without the use of platform staff so would those bats every be used to dispatch trains in the core routinely or is there any form of degraded working where they might be used?

 

[theking]

In the most recent video on the crossrail YouTube channel there’s a bit where they’re talking about bench design and there’s a shot of a bench at Paddington low level with two dispatch bats on it. I assumed that drivers would dispatch trains themselves without the use of platform staff so would those bats every be used to dispatch trains in the core routinely or is there any form of degraded working where they might be used?

Probably because they have to confirm the train is empty before it departs so that's how they will signal to the driver

 

[Mojo]

I can't think of another TfL terminus where they reverse beyond the station* where the driver might be walking through meantime and thus saving personnel. All the high-density reverses (Victoria at Brixton, Jubilee at Stratford, etc) take place at the platform, obviously driven in and out.

Plenty of locations on the Underground where trains reverse via a siding or depot beyond the platform.

There is an additional benefit that trialling and perfecting the tech here 'unlocks' its use elsewhere on the TfL network.

A variation on the technology to have a train without a driver in the cab was actually trialled on the Jubilee line back in Autumn 2016, at Willesden Green siding.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's an extraordinary geekish expense to save a few step-back drivers, as in my example of Liverpool in 1903.

it’s not about saving a few step back drivers, although that is a side benefit.

it is about making the turn back as quick as possible, particularly during disruption. The timetable would not work without it.

 

[coppercapped]

Obviously the service splits for Shenfield & Abbey Wood so it’s less and both and actually personally I think 2 platforms only at Abbey Wood is going to become quite the operational constraint. They seem to be going OK at the moment, but I’ve seen trains backed up to Custom House if there’s a fault in a platform in shadow operations.

My understand is the turnaround times being as short as they are have mandated auto-reverse and without a platform it’s not easy to step up drivers as they are planning to do with Abbey Wood. I don’t know who has deemed it necessary, but my guess is that someone has or it wouldn’t be progressed. I would agree it seems expensive as it won’t be going on long-term as the future plan is for Old Oak Common station to see terminators in the not long distant future (let’s say ~5-7 years).

The reversing siding is not “a couple of miles”. It’s about 90 seconds from Paddington to Westbourne Park.

The technology behind auto-reverse could also be adopted/adapted for the case of driverless train operation over the whole route. In the future this may not only be constrained to Crossrail but could be installed on any other line using CBTC.

Probably because they have to confirm the train is empty before it departs so that's how they will signal to the driver

How do you wave a bat through platform edge doors?

 

[theking]

How do you wave a bat through platform edge doors?

Why would they be waving bats through doors.

Two bats.

One member of staff stands by cab door

One member of staff at other end of train.

One signals to the other that the train is clear then the one who is by the door gives the signal to the driver.

That or they use the doo cameras like they do on the underground.

 

[Taunton]

The technology behind auto-reverse could also be adopted/adapted for the case of driverless train operation over the whole route. In the future this may not only be constrained to Crossrail but could be installed on any other line using CBTC.

As every single London automated driving approach to date has each used a different, indeed unique, system, starting from scratch, some more than one over time (Victoria Line; DLR; Thameslink) I can't quite see that.

it’s not about saving a few step back drivers, although that is a side benefit.

it is about making the turn back as quick as possible, particularly during disruption. The timetable would not work without it.

I'm grateful as ever for your input but still can't see how it won't work reversing 12tph actual reversers at Westbourne Park, but will at Abbey Wood or Shenfield, which both appear to have even less infrastructure for doing so, and an equal need for quick action during disruption recovery.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm grateful as ever for your input but still can't see how it won't work reversing 12tph actual reversers at Westbourne Park, but will at Abbey Wood or Shenfield, which both appear to have even less infrastructure for doing so, and an equal need for quick action during disruption recovery.

I’d have thought it was obvious. At Abbey Wood and Shenfield they are turning in the platform, and have 8 minutes to do so.

At Westbourne Park the turnaround is in the siding, and might be done in less than a minute in certain circumstances.

 

[coppercapped]

Why would they be waving bats through doors.

Two bats.

One member of staff stands by cab door

One member of staff at other end of train.

One signals to the other that the train is clear then the one who is by the door gives the signal to the driver.

That or they use the doo cameras like they do on the underground.

How quaintly old-fashioned for what is practically a fully automatic railway!

 

[stuu]

Probably because they have to confirm the train is empty before it departs so that's how they will signal to the driver

I thought they weren't clearing the trains at Paddington, and passengers could be over-carried to the sidings? Or perhaps the plan is to do so whilst it is a terminus?