Crossrail - Construction updates and progress towards opening (now expected 24 May 2022)

[Mikey C]

Annoyingly I'm going to ExCel next week for an event, 2 weeks before the opening!

 

[Roast Veg]

Most people heading to ExCeL are only on the DLR because it's the only option. The Liz will be far more convenient for the majority heading to exhibitions coming from the main airports or other UK cities by train, or indeed many Londoners who don't live in the Docklands. There'll surely be a huge mode switch and the DLR will be much quieter meaning no flow management closures would be needed. The only people who may want to continue using the DLR to get there would be those coming from London City Airport or those staying in nearby hotels that are just out of walking range.

I have seen services at e.g. Wembley Park Jubilee Line, where the sheer volume of passengers means people will get on anything that turns up going in the right direction. There may well need to be crowd control of some kind.

 

[KC1]

Based on the partial opening of the line, which as we know, at this stage is only between Abbey Wood and Paddington, not including the section from Shenfield under the tunnel at Stratford, how come these signs are already up at Stratford?

 

[JN114]

Based on the partial opening of the line, which as we know, at this stage is only between Abbey Wood and Paddington, not including the section from Shenfield under the tunnel at Stratford, how come these signs are already up at Stratford?

Because they’re permanent signs, and the partial opening is only temporary. The project is already grotesquely over budget, we don’t want them spending more ££££ on a sign that’ll get taken down and binned in a few months time.

 

[theking]

Because they’re permanent signs, and the partial opening is only temporary. The project is already grotesquely over budget, we don’t want them spending more ££££ on a sign that’ll get taken down and binned in a few months time.

But they're only stickers (which look pretty rubbish close up because of air bubbles and where they've stuck them over gaps) so don't see the need to rush and put these up and confuse passengers.

 

[Acton1991]

But they're only stickers (which look pretty rubbish close up because of air bubbles and where they've stuck them over gaps) so don't see the need to rush and put these up and confuse passengers.

But passengers can change at Liverpool Street for the central section so it’s technically true, and saves reprinting in a few months

 

[JonathanH]

But passengers can change at Liverpool Street for the central section so it’s technically true, and saves reprinting in a few months

...and again at Paddington. Given the Elizabeth Line is being marketed as one line from opening day but in three Sections, it is still TfL's route from Stratford to Heathrow and Reading.

In a similar way, the maps on the District line don't distinguish the various overlapping services but no one complains.

I guess Liverpool Street and Paddington are a bit different in that separate gatelines have to be negotiated but should passengers for Heathrow and Reading be directed to the Central Line at Stratford to change to Elizabeth Line services at Ealing Broadway?

 

[KC1]

Personallt

...and again at Paddington. Given the Elizabeth Line is being marketed as one line from opening day but in three Sections, it is still TfL's route from Stratford to Heathrow and Reading.

In a similar way, the maps on the District line don't distinguish the various overlapping services but no one complains.

I guess Liverpool Street and Paddington are a bit different in that separate gatelines have to be negotiated but should passengers for Heathrow and Reading be directed to the Central Line at Stratford to change to Elizabeth Line services at Ealing Broadway?

,

My point being, seeing as the Shenfield branch isn't part of the partial opening, that sign is deceiving, it states you can get a train to Heathrow or Reading from Stratford making out it's a direct service with no changes. Not only that, its sign states 'Elizabeth Line' which isn't true either because despite Stratford not being part of the Abbey Wood to Paddington it's 3 weeks early regardless which currently remains TfL rail.

 

[matt_world2004]

Because they’re permanent signs, and the partial opening is only temporary. The project is already grotesquely over budget, we don’t want them spending more ££££ on a sign that’ll get taken down and binned in a few months time.

Looking how much tfl is selling the signs for through the transport museum even if they only use them for a few months they would get their money back

 

[mattdickinson]

This thread goes back a long way so apologies if it’s been mentioned before but from the way I read the RSTL website (rail staff travel) all BR boxes, Status Passes & Priv travel will be valid on the Elizabeth Line from day one.

The validity for regional passes status passes is interesting.

• Eastern Region – between Shenfield and Farringdon, and London Liverpool Street and Custom House for Excel
• London Midland Region – between Paddington and Whitechapel
• Southern Region – between Abbey Wood and Farringdon
• Western Region – between Reading, Heathrow and London Paddington
• Scottish Region – not valid

 

[samulih]

^^^it will be nice to see what changes and how much with the opening, what modes or traffic loses passangers or how peoples way of using underground, dlr etc changes

 

[matt_world2004]

• Eastern Region – between Shenfield and Farringdon, and London Liverpool Street and Custom House for Excel
• London Midland Region – between Paddington and Whitechapel
• Southern Region – between Abbey Wood and Farringdon
• Western Region – between Reading, Heathrow and London Paddington
• Scottish Region – not valid

I wonder if the London midland region will extend east of Whitechapel when the core is joined up with the rest of the network

The rules seem a little arbitrary and random

I also wonder how paper tickets are going to be handled for priv travel

 

[mattdickinson]

I wonder if the London midland region will extend east of Whitechapel when the core is joined up with the rest of the network

The rules seem a little arbitrary and random

I also wonder how paper tickets are going to be handled for priv travel

I wonder if the London midland region will extend east of Whitechapel when the core is joined up with the rest of the network

The rules seem a little arbitrary and random

I also wonder how paper tickets are going to be handled for priv travel

I think it's based to an extent on historical availability on the Widened Lines and the North London Line.

 

[ijmad]

I have seen services at e.g. Wembley Park Jubilee Line, where the sheer volume of passengers means people will get on anything that turns up going in the right direction. There may well need to be crowd control of some kind.

The vast majority of events at ExCeL are all day affairs where people drizzle in and out rather than all arriving at the same time. There will be a peak near the start of the day for something like ComicCon but still much more spread out compared to a sports match.

 

[dk1]

• Eastern Region – between Shenfield and Farringdon, and London Liverpool Street and Custom House for Excel
• London Midland Region – between Paddington and Whitechapel
• Southern Region – between Abbey Wood and Farringdon
• Western Region – between Reading, Heathrow and London Paddington
• Scottish Region – not valid

It’s all getting complicated. Well done you for finding that out.

 

[Roast Veg]

The vast majority of events at ExCeL are all day affairs where people drizzle in and out rather than all arriving at the same time. There will be a peak near the start of the day for something like ComicCon but still much more spread out compared to a sports match.

I don't disagree - I can still see the option to skip a call being exercised on occasion though.

 

[Watershed]

I also wonder how paper tickets are going to be handled for priv travel

According to the brief I've seen, in the Core it will be mostly treated as if is an Underground line - i.e. you will need a ticket to the relevant LU Zone or a cross-London ticket, and whilst 'finishing short' to exit at an intermediate station will be permitted, you will not be allowed to resume your journey on the same ticket. It will also fall under the LU fare scale for Oyster/contactless.

The only exceptions are that there will be paper singles available for Priv holders, priced at £1.55 for a journey between any of the Core stations. BritRail/Interrail/FIP/All Line Rover tickets will also be accepted, as well as dated boxes for safeguarded staff, and status passes between the relevant stations.

It is unclear what non-safeguarded staff are supposed to do if they want to travel to an intermediate Core station. I suppose they will need to either split and buy a £1.55 Core single, or buy a ticket to the other side of London (albeit this is likely to be more expensive in most cases).

I don't think that the restriction on break of journey can be applied to people who hold tickets where the Core is the shortest route - for example Acton Main Line to Abbey Wood. After all, the Core remains a National Rail service and you can buy tickets that fall entirely under the NRCoT, where break of journey is permitted unless specifically prohibited by the fare type or restriction code (so would be permitted on an Anytime ticket for example).

It's also very disappointing that the Core is being priced as LU rather than TfL Rail, as for example Thameslink doesn't attract a premium to go through its Core. This is a particular issue for non-safeguarded staff making journeys within the Zones, as they won't get any discount on the Oyster fare once it becomes mixed mode. So to get a discount they will either have to use a paper ticket, or touch out and back in at each end of the Core and use a different Oyster card/contactless to make sure the OSIs don't join the journey up.

 

[Snow1964]

One thing that is baffling me, is that are the initial phase of 12 trains per hour, has been suggested the service will increase to 22tph per hour in the Autumn

Does that mean they will run with uneven gaps in central section, or will they be timetabled at 2 minute 43.6 second intervals (not that I’m aware of any working timetables that allow that interval)

I can’t even work out how you could integrate a 10tph service at 5 minute intervals via Stratford with a 12tph (4 minute intervals) service to Abbey Wood unless trains unless trains wait time east of Whitechapel junction. Or is it 11 tph each at about 4 minutes 25 seconds each.

Can anyone explain how a 22tph timetable integrating 2 different branches actually works without somewhere getting an uneven frequency, or it appearing uneven on a departure screen that can only show times to nearest minute.

 

[zwk500]

One thing that is baffling me, is that are the initial phase of 12 trains per hour, has been suggested the service will increase to 22tph per hour in the Autumn

Does that mean they will run with uneven gaps in central section, or will they be timetabled at 2 minute 43.6 second intervals (not that I’m aware of any working timetables that allow that interval)

I can’t even work out how you could integrate a 10tph service at 5 minute intervals via Stratford with a 12tph (4 minute intervals) service to Abbey Wood unless trains unless trains wait time east of Whitechapel junction. Or is it 11 tph each at about 4 minutes 25 seconds each.

Can anyone explain how a 22tph timetable integrating 2 different branches actually works without somewhere getting an uneven frequency.

Is having a 5 minute gap in between 2.5 minute interval timetable really counting as an 'uneven' frequency?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Is having a 5 minute gap in between 2.5 minute interval timetable really counting as an 'uneven' frequency?

It's not arithmetically possible to have different frequencies on two branches and still have even intervals on the trunk section - but this is a common enough situation, and you have to compromise to smooth it out.

I seem to remember a time some years ago when there were 3 trains every 10 minutes on the Piccadilly off-peak, with 2 going to the airport branch and one to Rayners Lane / Uxbridge. If my memory is right (though it might not be!) the trunk section ran something like Airport - 3-min gap - Uxbridge - 3-min gap - Airport - 4-min gap, and repeating. So the trunk had 3, 3, 4 gaps (not too uneven), and the more frequent branch had 4 and 6 gaps alternating (again not too uneven).

 

[zwk500]

It's not arithmetically possible to have different frequencies on two branches and still have even intervals on the trunk section - but this is a common enough situation, and you have to compromise to smooth it out.

I seem to remember a time some years ago when there were 3 trains every 10 minutes on the Piccadilly off-peak, with 2 going to the airport branch and one to Rayners Lane / Uxbridge. If my memory is right (though it might not be!) the trunk section ran something like Airport - 3-min gap - Uxbridge - 3-min gap - Airport - 4-min gap, and repeating. So the trunk had 3, 3, 4 gaps (not too uneven), and the more frequent branch had 4 and 6 gaps alternating (again not too uneven).

It's not mathematically precise but it's still frequent enough that to a casual user it won't be a problem.

Given that the working timetable can only cope with intervals of 30 seconds (I'm not sure if the central core can operationally cope with lesser intervals like some tube lines can) it's going to be either be 1 path in 12 dropped out of the pattern or a mix of 2.5 and 3 minute intervals.

 

[kevin_roche]

It's not arithmetically possible to have different frequencies on two branches and still have even intervals on the trunk section - but this is a common enough situation, and you have to compromise to smooth it out.

I seem to remember a time some years ago when there were 3 trains every 10 minutes on the Piccadilly off-peak, with 2 going to the airport branch and one to Rayners Lane / Uxbridge. If my memory is right (though it might not be!) the trunk section ran something like Airport - 3-min gap - Uxbridge - 3-min gap - Airport - 4-min gap, and repeating. So the trunk had 3, 3, 4 gaps (not too uneven), and the more frequent branch had 4 and 6 gaps alternating (again not too uneven).

If the existing published TfL Rail timetable to Paddington is to be believed the gaps between arrival times of TfL services is quite variable anyway. Here are the gaps in minutes of Tfl services arriving at Paddington between 8am and 10am:
10, 6, 9, 4, 4, 8, 6, 9, 3, 4, 9, 5, 9, 3, 12, 5, 11, 2

The next two hours is a bit more amenable to fitting in with a 3 minute 10tph service.
12, 15, 3, 12, 15, 3, 12, 15, 3, 12, 15, 4

Of course, the current published timetable is running only 4 tph to Heathrow. I imagine there will be 6 tph soon enough as T4 is opening again.
(I have used the published timetable on the TfL web site for this which only goes down to the nearest minute)

 

[spinba11]

Thanks. No wheelchair symbol on Ilford!

Abbey Wood has the wrong on. It’s step free to trai, but it shows step free to platfor.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Abbey Wood has the wrong on. It’s step free to trai, but it shows step free to platfor.

Might this be because SE services (which aren’t step free to train) also operate there?

 

[OvergroundMatt]

Personallt

,

My point being, seeing as the Shenfield branch isn't part of the partial opening, that sign is deceiving, it states you can get a train to Heathrow or Reading from Stratford making out it's a direct service with no changes. Not only that, its sign states 'Elizabeth Line' which isn't true either because despite Stratford not being part of the Abbey Wood to Paddington it's 3 weeks early regardless which currently remains TfL rail.

As has been publicly announced and discussed on this thread previously, the services currently branded TfL Rail all become Elizabeth Line when the central section opens. The TfL Rail brand will disappear in a couple of weeks.

 

[Horizon22]

As has been publicly announced and discussed on this thread previously, the services currently branded TfL Rail all become Elizabeth Line when the central section opens. The TfL Rail brand will disappear in a couple of weeks.

And indeed already has in many cases; I'm seeing a lot more 345s showing Elizabeth Line roundels.

 

[kevin_roche]

It's not mathematically precise but it's still frequent enough that to a casual user it won't be a problem.

Given that the working timetable can only cope with intervals of 30 seconds (I'm not sure if the central core can operationally cope with lesser intervals like some tube lines can) it's going to be either be 1 path in 12 dropped out of the pattern or a mix of 2.5 and 3 minute intervals.

I'm wondering what steps happen when a timetable is uploaded. Do the planners upload directly to the WTT or does it get uploaded and massaged to the systems run by MTR first? Having read the publicity material for Trainguard MT and some of the details in the timetable planning rules for the COS and they both mention the capability to set up timetables based on seconds rather than half minutes. There have also been comments in the Jacobs reports about efforts to reduce the difficulty of uploading timetables.

A long time ago (8 Jan 2016) in an article on the Rail Engineer website, there was this sentence as part of a paragraph on why the CBTC system was chosen versus ETCS L3.

The specification is for 110 second headways with 60 second dwell times at Paddington and Liverpool Street, putting trains 50 seconds apart. Independent modelling showed that this can only be achieved using a moving block signalling system.

I'm guessing that in order to do that the data has to be entered into the CBTC system directly.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

^^^it will be nice to see what changes and how much with the opening, what modes or traffic loses passangers or how peoples way of using underground, dlr etc changes

I'm expecting, eventually, not immediately, an increase in patronage of the Central Line north of Stratford by people in places like Hainault and Epping using it to access the Elizabeth Line. Similarly, at the other end, will any residents of Ruislip abandon the Metropolitan Line for the Central Line?

It will be interesting to see if fewer people change at Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters for the Victoria Line, changing instead at Liverpool Street for the Elizabeth.

 

[fgwrich]

As has been publicly announced and discussed on this thread previously, the services currently branded TfL Rail all become Elizabeth Line when the central section opens. The TfL Rail brand will disappear in a couple of weeks.

It’s going to be strange passing through Reading to hear “Platform 14 for the Elizabeth Line Service to” instead of the more Accustomed “Tfuuull Rail”.

 

[Mikey C]

Might this be because SE services (which aren’t step free to train) also operate there?

So are the Crossrail platforms at Abbey Wood fully accessible then (from street to train) even though the Southeastern ones aren't?