First class TPE advance not valid in Avanti 1st due to disruption.

[cf111]

I don't have an issue with the guard following the company procedures, I do have an issue with the procedure itself (including the disconnect between what customer services say and what the staff on the ground are told) and the way I was spoken to. Of course I don't know if my guard was among the staff @Trackman was nearby, and I don't doubt for a second what he has posted is what he heard, but I'd be most amused if the guard felt that I failed the attitude test. If I did, then I hope they don't get any actually difficult or argumentative passengers on Avanti services out of Edinburgh.

The member of staff at the doors checking tickets at Waverley, in comparison was cheery, polite and apologised for the disruption (which wasn't even her company's fault) and I spoke to that lady in exactly the same manner I spoke to the guard. I've travelled by train all my life during all sorts of disruption and I have genuinely never, ever had cause to even consider complaining about the attitude of any member of staff. Indeed I have on more than a few occasions sent emails to TOCs wishing to convey my thanks and best wishes to staff who have put in a really good shift in trying times.

I will report back if and when Avanti get back to me. I have enjoyed the lively discussion!

 

[Trackman]

It’s happening again today on the train I’m currently on.
They are being a bit devious this time:
(First class announce only PA)
‘Attention customers in first class, if you were due to travel on the xx.xx cancelled TPE service, please move to coach H’
No mention of SP or lack of food/drink!

 

[Watershed]

It’s happening again today on the train I’m currently on.
They are being a bit devious this time:
(First class announce only PA)
‘Attention customers in first class, if you were due to travel on the xx.xx cancelled TPE service, please move to coach H’
No mention of SP or lack of food/drink!

Oh dear. I would put in a complaint about that; it probably needs to become more voluminous for anything to happen. @cf111 have you heard back yet?

 

[Trackman]

Oh dear. I would put in a complaint about that; it probably needs to become more voluminous for anything to happen.

I was sat in SP.
No-one came in from first after the announcement or after a ticket check.

 

[mmh]

This is a rare case where a comparisons with the airlines might assist. If you bought a First Class ticket, but your flight was cancelled, you should be rebooked on the next flight. If that happens to be on an airline where there's only Business Class and Economy, it is your choice whether you take Business Class or ask to be rebooked onto the next flight with First Class.

But if the next flight does have First Class, it wouldn't be acceptable for the airline to say "well we'll just rebook you in Business Class, it's close enough isn't it".

As usual, airline analogies aren't useful, and this one isn't. It's not unknown for airlines to do exactly that. Actually, it's usually worse. You'll have a higher cabin ticket and be "downgraded" on the day. They try to avoid it of course, but what are you going to do? Wait until tomorrow?

It feels to me like many people who make airline premium ticket analogies have never actually used one.

 

[Some guy]

It’s a good move as TPE first class is nowhere near the level of catering as Avanti and is so much cheaper. People have started to realise if they purchase a cheap TPE ticket knowing it’s going to be cancelled they will 100% get acceptance by their first group friend thats probably why they don’t want TPE passengers in first

 

[mmh]

It’s happening again today on the train I’m currently on.
They are being a bit devious this time:
(First class announce only PA)
‘Attention customers in first class, if you were due to travel on the xx.xx cancelled TPE service, please move to coach H’
No mention of SP or lack of food/drink!

What do you think should happen? The dedicated first class coach on Pendolinos (K, the driving car) is a horrible environment compared to the others. Stand in there because it's "proper" first? I'd just take my identical seat in another carriage and look forward to my refund.

 

[Watershed]

As usual, airline analogies aren't useful, and this one isn't. It's not unknown for airlines to do exactly that. Actually, it's usually worse. You'll have a higher cabin ticket and be "downgraded" on the day. They try to avoid it of course, but what are you going to do? Wait until tomorrow?

As on the railway, you have the choice of either taking the next flight regardless of class (and taking additional compensation if there are no seats available in the class you booked) or taking a later flight in your booked class at your convenience.

But where there are seats available, airlines can't and (usually) won't just downgrade you for the hell of it - as Avanti are doing here.

It feels to me like many people who make airline premium ticket analogies have never actually used one.

I'm afraid you're wrong there.

It’s a good move as TPE first class is nowhere near the level of catering as Avanti and is so much cheaper. People have started to realise if they purchase a cheap TPE ticket knowing it’s going to be cancelled they will 100% get acceptance by their first group friend thats probably why they don’t want TPE passengers in first

The reliability of TPE services has been poor over the last 6 months, but that does not give Avanti an excuse to start downgrading people.

If you bought a first class Thameslink only ticket from London to Peterborough, would you accept being downgraded to standard on LNER because "well it's pretty similar to First on Thameslink"? I doubt it. Occasionally re-routing will mean a "free lunch" for passengers; that's life. Why do you bear such a grudge against people that have already been inconvenienced?

Ultimately, if you hold a first class ticket, you're entitled to be re-routed in first class to the extent that there is space for you. There are first class coaches on Avanti so that's where first class TPE ticket holders are entitled to be re-routed. End of story.

 

[Some guy]

As on the railway, you have the choice of either taking the next flight regardless of class (and taking additional compensation if there are no seats available in the class you booked) or taking a later flight in your booked class at your convenience.

But where there are seats available, airlines can't and (usually) won't just downgrade you for the hell of it - as Avanti are doing here.


I'm afraid you're wrong there.


The reliability of TPE services has been poor over the last 6 months, but that does not give Avanti an excuse to start downgrading people.

If you bought a first class Thameslink only ticket from London to Peterborough, would you accept being downgraded to standard on LNER because "well it's pretty similar to First on Thameslink"? I doubt it. Occasionally re-routing will mean a "free lunch" for passengers; that's life. Why do you bear such a grudge against people that have already been inconvenienced?

Ultimately, if you hold a first class ticket, you're entitled to be re-routed in first class to the extent that there is space for you. There are first class coaches on Avanti so that's where first class TPE ticket holders are entitled to be re-routed. End of story.

Have you saw the price of a TPE first class ticket compared to an Avanti ticket it’s night and day. People who have spent their hard earned cash shouldn’t get the same service as someone who bought a ticket for a different TOC and get shunted onto Avanti because they can’t run a service

 

[AlterEgo]

As usual, airline analogies aren't useful, and this one isn't. It's not unknown for airlines to do exactly that. Actually, it's usually worse. You'll have a higher cabin ticket and be "downgraded" on the day. They try to avoid it of course, but what are you going to do? Wait until tomorrow?

It feels to me like many people who make airline premium ticket analogies have never actually used one.

The difference is that there is significant compensation for being downgraded involuntarily, unlike the OP who is simply told to suck it up.

Have you saw the price of a TPE first class ticket compared to an Avanti ticket it’s night and day. People who have spent their hard earned cash shouldn’t get the same service as someone who bought a ticket for a different TOC and get shunted onto Avanti because they can’t run a service

Yes they should.

What about standard tickets then? Should people rerouted onto Avanti have to lie down in the luggage racks?

 

[Watershed]

Have you saw the price of a TPE first class ticket compared to an Avanti ticket it’s night and day. People who have spent their hard earned cash shouldn’t get the same service as someone who bought a ticket for a different TOC and get shunted onto Avanti because they can’t run a service

Oh dear, not this again. Someone who booked First Class during the Rail Sale might have paid £10, whereas someone on a walkup standard fare on the same train might have paid £100. Does that mean that the Rail Sale ticket holder has to travel in standard for things to be 'fair'?

The same applies on flights, if you book ahead there can be some really good deals available, even in First or Business. But buy at the airport 2 hours before departure and it might cost you more for a cramped Economy seat.

The price paid has little or no bearing on your rights at the end of the day. It only really affects the amount of Delay Repay you'll get if you are delayed.

 

[Grumpy Git]

So what is the actual procedure that Avanti should be following in this case (in railway law)?

 

[mmh]

The difference is that there is significant compensation for being downgraded involuntarily, unlike the OP

There really isn't any difference. The airline may (in practice usually will, but not always) refund the difference in price. Where they don't is usually tied to using a discounted ticket, which is what most people have. Someone downgraded on a train actually has better rights - their refund of the difference is a right. Airlines will try to placate their first class passenger with miles or (more rarely) free tickets, not money, first.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It’s a good move as TPE first class is nowhere near the level of catering as Avanti and is so much cheaper. People have started to realise if they purchase a cheap TPE ticket knowing it’s going to be cancelled they will 100% get acceptance by their first group friend thats probably why they don’t want TPE passengers in first

Avanti don't have a right to decide that as far as I'm concerned. If I paid for a first class ticket, I'd expect to travel in first class, not standard premium.

 

[mmh]

Oh dear, not this again. Someone who booked First Class during the Rail Sale might have paid £10, whereas someone on a walkup standard fare on the same train might have paid £100. Does that mean that the Rail Sale ticket holder has to travel in standard for things to be 'fair'?

The same applies on flights, if you book ahead there can be some really good deals available, even in First or Business. But buy at the airport 2 hours before departure and it might cost you more for a cramped Economy seat.

The price paid has little or no bearing on your rights at the end of the day. It only really affects the amount of Delay Repay you'll get if you are delayed.

Yes, you are spot on there. Rights often need to take second place to pragmatism. Do you want to take this alternative, or be a bit of an arse making a fuss because you won't get your "free" cup of tea, or the correct coloured antimacassar?

 

[Trackman]

So what is the actual procedure that Avanti should be following in this case (in railway law)?

It's been discussed up thread.
I don't know the law, it could be Avanti agreed to First class ticket acceptance but they have to sit in SP (Standard Premium) .. I don't know.
Are Avanti or any TOC forced for ticket acceptance?
---
Found out the cancelled TPE train in question, 12:12 from Edinburgh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As usual, airline analogies aren't useful, and this one isn't. It's not unknown for airlines to do exactly that. Actually, it's usually worse. You'll have a higher cabin ticket and be "downgraded" on the day. They try to avoid it of course, but what are you going to do? Wait until tomorrow?

They won't do it without a partial refund, though.

 

[Some guy]

Avanti don't have a right to decide that as far as I'm concerned. If I paid for a first class ticket, I'd expect to travel in first class, not standard premium.

Oh dear, not this again. Someone who booked First Class during the Rail Sale might have paid £10, whereas someone on a walkup standard fare on the same train might have paid £100. Does that mean that the Rail Sale ticket holder has to travel in standard for things to be 'fair'?

The same applies on flights, if you book ahead there can be some really good deals available, even in First or Business. But buy at the airport 2 hours before departure and it might cost you more for a cramped Economy seat.

The price paid has little or no bearing on your rights at the end of the day. It only really affects the amount of Delay Repay you'll get if you are delayed.

This is different this isn’t no discount it’s a company that is run that badly it has to resort to putting their own passengers onto different train companies. They shouldn’t be able to be put into first class where it’s a full meal service with a chef. TPE only does tea/coffee and biscuits

 

[Watershed]

Yes, you are spot on there. Rights often need to take second place to pragmatism. Do you want to take this alternative, or be a bit of an arse making a fuss because you won't get your "free" cup of tea, or the correct coloured antimacassar?

Passengers have the choice whether they accept SP and claim a refund for the downgrade, or whether they sit in First and pay for any wrongly demanded upgrade and reclaim it afterwards.

Train companies do make a fuss if passengers travel on a standard class ticket in first class, even where the only difference is the presence of an antimacassar. Passengers have every right to "be an arse" when the boot is on the other foot.

It's been discussed up thread.
I don't know the law, it could be Avanti agreed to First class ticket acceptance but they have to sit in SP (Standard Premium) .. I don't know.
Are Avanti or any TOC forced for ticket acceptance?
---
Found out the cancelled TPE train in question, 12:12 from Edinburgh.

Avanti aren't forced to offer ticket acceptance to TPE, but there is a standing commercial agreement in place.

As with all TOCs, TPE are, if a delay of 61+ mins is anticipated, liable to the passenger to arrange re-routeing (i.e. ticket acceptance, or else buying passengers new tickets) at the earliest available opportunity, in comparable transport conditions. So the argument is about what comparable transport conditions means in this context.

This is different this isn’t no discount it’s a company that is run that badly it has to resort to putting their own passengers onto different train companies. They shouldn’t be able to be put into first class where it’s a full meal service with a chef. TPE only does tea/coffee and biscuits

Same principle applies with Advance tickets. As I say, price paid has nothing to do with it. You'll be very lucky to get a full meal service on Avanti, particularly if travelling around Preston where there's the inevitable crew change with everything closed/unavailable for around 15-20 mins before and afterwards.

If Avanti didn't have Standard Premium, would you be arguing for TPE First class passengers to be put into standard?

 

[AlterEgo]

There really isn't any difference. The airline may (in practice usually will, but not always) refund the difference in price.

No, airlines are bound by the regulations. In the UK, it's 30%, 50%, and 75% allocated by distance. This is a legal right the passenger has over and above consumer legislation.

Where they don't is usually tied to using a discounted ticket, which is what most people have.

No, wrong, the passenger has the same rights regardless of the price or fare bucket of the ticket.

 

[LOL The Irony]

This is different this isn’t no discount it’s a company that is run that badly it has to resort to putting their own passengers onto different train companies. They shouldn’t be able to be put into first class where it’s a full meal service with a chef. TPE only does tea/coffee and biscuits

Avanti signed up to accept TPE tickets, including first class tickets. They knew beforehand that their first is better than TPEs and the answer is basically tough titties, since Avanti knew what they were getting into.

As a sidenote, you appear to be vehemently defending Avanti in this situation, do you happen to have any relation to them?

 

[AlterEgo]

So what is the actual procedure that Avanti should be following in this case (in railway law)?

Avanti must accommodate the passenger in first class, that's it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't entirely get why Avanti couldn't give the TPE passengers the TPE offering, i.e. tea, coffee and water, and no food. That's what MKC-Euston passengers get, so they are capable of looking at tickets and seeing what you're entitled to.

On the other hand, what they could do is give them the full service and say "next time why not choose us and you get this"?

 

[Grumpy Git]

TPE first class may be an inferior service than AWC on the face of it, but anyone travelling north from Euston with AWC first after 7 p.m. will know that this is also a dire offering, (I've only ever been offered a scabby box of non descript cheese and biscuits on this trip).

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE first class may be an inferior service than AWC on the face of it, but anyone travelling north from Euston with AWC first after 7 p.m. will know that this is also a dire offering, (I've only ever been offered a scabby box of non descript cheese and biscuits on this trip).

I'd certainly agree that Avanti 1st's service offering in no way reflects its outrageous price, but that's probably one for another thread

 

[JBuchananGB]

When I travelled on an Avanti service yesterday (18 May) I distinctly heard the announcement that holders of TPE 1st class ticket could travel in the unreserved 1st class coach on the train, coach G (I think).

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I travelled on an Avanti service yesterday (18 May) I distinctly heard the announcement that holders of TPE 1st class ticket could travel in the unreserved 1st class coach on the train, coach G (I think).

Coach G is Standard Premium.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Coach G is Standard Premium.

TM probably told the TPE passengers that there's no food if you "haven't booked"!

On a serious note, I do find Avanti's take on this completely distasteful and they rightly need calling-out for it. First group seem a thoroughly horrible company.

 

[Wolfie]

From what I gathered yesterday they (the passengers) all failed the ‘attitude test’. Even the one on my train who wasn’t for moving.

I have to say that l really hope that railway staff get treated in exactly the same manner in other areas of life.

It’s happening again today on the train I’m currently on.
They are being a bit devious this time:
(First class announce only PA)
‘Attention customers in first class, if you were due to travel on the xx.xx cancelled TPE service, please move to coach H’
No mention of SP or lack of food/drink!

Interesting. I wonder what Avanti get financially from TPE. If they are charging TPE for First class and actually using Standard Premium they should be prosecuted for fraud.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting. I wonder what Avanti get financially from TPE. If they are charging TPE for First class and actually using Standard Premium they should be prosecuted for fraud.

As this definitely seems to be coming from above I suspect they have negotiated a fixed price for Standard Premium which is, give or take tea and coffee, equivalent to TPE's First Class offering - indeed in many ways better. There is no reason for TPE to want to fund their passengers having an offering (the food) which they have not paid for, though they could be allowed to sit in 1st and not given the food, of course.

What do they do on Voyager services where there is no SP?

We seem to keep reaching for "comparable transport conditions", which to me SP probably is. The environment is higher quality (better seats, all window-aligned, smoother ride, more space) but the offering slightly poorer (no paper cup of tea). I can see that they should perhaps be arranging tea, coffee and a bottle of water, but there's no moral or legal entitlement to a full food service, nor to sitting in a specific vehicle.