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When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

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GusB

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Was there a meeting of the 1922 committee held last evening and if so, was anything forthcoming news-wise? Apologies for asking, as I fell into a deep sleep after my evening meal last night and it was past midnight when I awoke.
google.com
 

birchesgreen

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Was there a meeting of the 1922 committee held last evening and if so, was anything forthcoming news-wise? Apologies for asking, as I fell into a deep sleep after my evening meal last night and it was past midnight when I awoke.

Well usual thing, reports of disgrunted Tory MPs saying various things though never named so pretty meaningless.
 

Yew

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I would say, not, it sounds appealing when so many people are struggling, but it's an absolutely terrible idea.

Imagine you do really well at work and your employer therefore gives you a salary rise. So for several months you're going in to work happy that you're earning more. Then suddenly the Government comes along and says, "Hey, we don't like you! We don't want you to earn that much. So - that extra money you've been earning - we're going to take it away from you now. And we'll do that by increasing your tax rate. Not the general tax rate for everyone. We're going to pass a special rule so that you have to pay more tax than everyone else. And by the way, it's retrospective, so we're also taking away the money that you've already been earning."

That's the windfall tax.
You are aware that BP is a contraction of British Petroleum, not Benjamin Parker? This is a tax on large exploitative corporations, not on individuals.

If you think the money the energy companies are making is unfair and should be all taxed away, then ask yourself this: If it was the opposite situation - energy prices were unexpectedly very low, and the energy companies were therefore losing a fortune, for reasons that were completely not their fault, do you think the Labour Party would be proposing that the Government step in and cover their losses? Or is it more likely that Labour would be reminding us that this is a risk of business, or telling us that the companies must be punished for their lack of foresight?
I think in that case, the Labour Party would use the challenging market conditions to nationalise the energy companies, protecting workers jobs and providing low cost energy to the people.

A lot of swing voters, I would guess. Probably quite a few of the Red Wallers who, in the words of something I read shortly afterwards, "lent" their vote to the Tories to prevent a Corbyn victory.
An interesting phenomenon, you had blokes who had been employed by the National Coal board, and went on strike with the literal communist Arthur Scargill, who somehow though that Corbyn was too left wing.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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You are aware that BP is a contraction of British Petroleum, not Benjamin Parker? This is a tax on large exploitative corporations, not on individuals.

What difference does it make? If its profits are legitimately earned (which they are), in a country that respects rule of law, you don't just go round seizing people's (or organizations') property just because you don't like those people/organizations: That's the kind of thing they do in places like Russia or North Korea, it's not something that should be being done in a democracy.

Besides, ultimately BP *is* probably owned by individuals: Many thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of individuals. Even if many of the direct shares are owned by other organisations (such as pension funds or investment groups etc.), those other groups will ultimately be owned by someone. The only exceptions I can think of will be if Governments own shares, or if shares are owned by non-profit-making associations/community groups that don't themselves have direct owners.

Being a large corporation does not automatically mean you're 'exploitative'. Unless you have some evidence that BP is actually exploiting people in some way, then your use of the word 'exploitative' is just a smear.

And finally, when you've seized all of BP's profits, what are you expecting BP to use to invest in new energy sources (which we urgently need them to do in order to remove our dependence on Russian energy)?

I think in that case, the Labour Party would use the challenging market conditions to nationalise the energy companies, protecting workers jobs and providing low cost energy to the people.

Ah yes, because nationalization is always more efficient and always leads to lower prices and better services, innit.

When you nationalize, are you going to do it by just seizing (in other words, stealing) the energy companies without paying their existing owners (thereby guaranteeing that almost no-one will invest in the UK for many years), or are you going to buy the companies at the current market rate (the only legitimate way to do it), thereby saddling the Government with more debt and interest to pay, which - if market prices have been set correctly and all other things being equal [*] - is likely to roughly cancel out any savings you make from being able to re-use profits.

[*] They won't be equal - they will very likely get worse because of the lack of competition, and Government interference that normally comes with nationalization would tend to prevent good business practices and innovation.
 

Shrop

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Boris has repeatedly demonstrated that he has no genuine comprehension of the double standards he affords himself. Even now, he still thinks it was reasonable to have a large party to wave off a colleague to a new career, at the same time that he had made it an offence attracting fines of £1000 and more, for smaller numbers of people to spend time with relatives who were literally dying.
All of those Tories who appear on TV every day to defend him, are simply demonstrating their own disgusting double standards too. If there was a credible alternative to vote for, then the Tory Party would be dead and buried by now, but by their incredible luck, there isn't.
Roll on a wholsale review of our political system, because without it, the UK yet again looks like a bunch of clowns in the eyes of the rest of the world.
 

DarloRich

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Happy u turn day people.

The government are going to introduce a windfall tax that they voted against days ago and just moments ago was deeply unconservative, going to destroy hard pressed, multi billion pound profit making companies ( who take a lot of risk you know) wouldn't actually help decent people and drag us into a vast economic morass.

Good. What took you so long lads?

EDIT: I assume the £200 "loan" will now, by some miraculous event, be declared as a grant that does not need to be repaid. Amazing.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I think in that case, the Labour Party would use the challenging market conditions to nationalise the energy companies, protecting workers jobs and providing low cost energy to the people.
If that be the case and the energy companies being as well aware as you are of the implications expected from a Labour Government, they will ensure all moveable financial matters find a new home well before the Day of Armageddon.

Roll on a wholsale review of our political system, because without it, the UK yet again looks like a bunch of clowns in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Thank you for bringing this review to the attention of the website. Can you oblige by informing us when it is due to start and who is likely to serve upon it.
 

DarloRich

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The Northern Echo really are not holding back
The Echo have really got thier game back. They went through a period of being a bit wishy washy and sucking up to the local Tories. They have finally seen the error of thier ways. ( they always used to have a very moral tone in reporting and stood for "what was right")
If that be the case and the energy companies being as well aware as you are of the implications expected from a Labour Government, they will ensure all moveable financial matters find a new home well before the Day of Armageddon.
Is this a thought process Tories go through every time there is a risk of Labour getting into power? it is sooooooooooooo boring.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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tive
Is this a thought process Tories go through every time there is a risk of Labour getting into power? it is sooooooooooooo boring.
If Tories, in the instance you quote above, are a name commonly used by people who do not like using the phrase Conservatives, what do such people also call Labour Party supporters. You will be aware that I have my own particular name for them.
 

DarloRich

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tive

If Tories, in the instance you quote above, are a name commonly used by people who do not like using the phrase Conservatives, what do such people also call Labour Party supporters. You will be aware that I have my own particular name for them.
eh? What are you talking about?
 

DarloRich

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Sorry to have confused you by "asking big words".
There are no big words and precious little point. What confuses me is what you are trying to say? Is it that I shouldn't use the word "Tory" to describe Johnson and his crime syndicate?

If it is then I agree. They are not Tories nor Conservatives. They are a vote leave, get brexit done, English nationalist, Populist, Personality cult of simpletons who have climbed inside a Tory skin suit.

it must be very painful being an old school Tory ( like say Max Hastings) and have these clowns climb represent you! Personally i wouldn't entertain them ( like Corbyn) but each to thier own.

EDIT: I despise Johnson and honestly don't see how anyone can look at the man, his behaviour and activities and say yep, he is the man for me
 
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TheEdge

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I despise Johnson and honestly don't see how anyone can look at the man, his behaviour and activities and say yep, he is the man for me

Presumably you need to be rich enough to be winning at the moment and just want to cr@p on the plebs below you...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Just think that if Momentum and its Corbyn figure had not tried to take over the Labour Party, it would be likely that we would have never been in the position that the vast majority of thread contributors would have needed to make postings on such a thread as this.
 

nw1

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An interesting phenomenon, you had blokes who had been employed by the National Coal board, and went on strike with the literal communist Arthur Scargill, who somehow though that Corbyn was too left wing.

While (for other reasons) I am not especially a Corbyn fan, the biggest irony is that the Right Dishonourable Member for Ashfield, probably one of the most right-wing Tories in Parliament, is apparently an ex-Labour member, former assistant to his predecessor Labour MP, and ex-coal miner!

There are no big words and precious little point. What confuses me is what you are trying to say? Is it that I shouldn't use the word "Tory" to describe Johnson and his crime syndicate?

If it is then I agree. They are not Tories nor Conservatives. They are a vote leave, get brexit done, English nationalist, Populist, Personality cult of simpletons who have climbed inside a Tory skin suit.
Perhaps the best summary of Johnson and his Britannia Unchained/Brexiter acolytes that I have seen on this thread!

If that be the case and the energy companies being as well aware as you are of the implications expected from a Labour Government, they will ensure all moveable financial matters find a new home well before the Day of Armageddon.
"The Day of Armageddon"? We've already had it. 2019-12-13. Proof that all that Friday 13th stuff isn't so superstitious after all. ;)
 
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DarloRich

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While (for other reasons) I am not especially a Corbyn fan, the biggest irony is that the Right Dishonourable Member for Ashfield, probably one of the most right-wing Tories in Parliament, is apparently an ex-Labour member, former assistant to his predecessor Labour MP, and ex-coal miner!
An ex labour councillor also! It is worth looking out his story. he was suspended by Labour for some unpleasantness involving travellers.
 
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nw1

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An ex labour councillor also! It is worth looking out his story he was suspended by Labour for some unpleasantness involving travellers.
Yes, I saw that. Thoroughly unpleasant individual, based on the evidence I've seen.
 

brad465

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John Baron and David Simmonds have now publicly called for Johnson to quit:


Two more Tory MPs have withdrawn their support for Boris Johnson in the wake of Sue Gray's report into Downing Street lockdown parties.

The announcements by John Baron and David Simmonds follow a similar call by their backbench colleague Julian Sturdy on Wednesday.

Mr Baron said the findings by senior civil servant Ms Gray as well as the Met Police investigation into the episode "paint a shameful pattern of misbehaviour during the pandemic as the rest of us kept to the COVID regulations".

Mr Simmonds said it was "clear that while the government and our policies enjoy the confidence of the public the prime minister does not".

Mr Sturdy had already called for the PM to go, saying it was "in the public interest for him to resign".

The latest statements mean that there are now 18 backbench Tory MPs publicly calling for the PM to quit while some others have been ambiguous, citing factors such as the war in Ukraine as reasons why they are staying their hand for now.

It is unclear how many have submitted letters of no confidence in Mr Johnson, with 54 required to trigger a vote by the parliamentary party on his leadership.
 

Busaholic

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John Baron and David Simmonds have now publicly called for Johnson to quit:

The coming by-elections might make the trickle become a deluge. The Honiton and Tiverton result, if the Tories lose or only just hold onto it, is much more significant in my eyes because nowhere is more solid Conservative territory currently than S.W. England. Watch the rabbit MPs scurrying back to their burrows before they re-emerge en masse to make the surprise announcement that some of them have discovered an unused part of their anatomies i.e. a backbone. Hopefully it will not save too many of them, though the Member for the British Virgin Islands might survive.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The coming by-elections might make the trickle become a deluge. The Honiton and Tiverton result, if the Tories lose or only just hold onto it, is much more significant in my eyes because nowhere is more solid Conservative territory currently than S.W. England. Watch the rabbit MPs scurrying back to their burrows before they re-emerge en masse to make the surprise announcement that some of them have discovered an unused part of their anatomies i.e. a backbone. Hopefully it will not save too many of them, though the Member for the British Virgin Islands might survive.
If you look at the very first posting on this thread, it mentions that the Conservative Party had lost two by-elections in a row. Howsoever, at the last General Election, they had a much-increased majority from the previous General Election, so the loss of a couple of by-elections would not make as much damage as would have been the case in the previous administration.
 

Shrop

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Thank you for bringing this review to the attention of the website. Can you oblige by informing us when it is due to start and who is likely to serve upon it.
Sadly this was wishful thinking rather than a statement of what's actually happening, which is why I said "a review" rather than "the review". Even more sadly, I think the two major Parties who have held power for the last 100 years between them, are so entrenched that it will never happen, because all of their MPs know their seats would be at serious risk if we had a fairer voting system. Yes, a fairer voting system would attract a greater number of voters and hopefully stop some of the huge voting apathy we have at present, but among MPs (most of them, in all Parties, although there are some exceptions), selfishness generally prevails.
 

birchesgreen

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The only way we'd get a major review of the political system would be in the aftermath of a catastrophic event, such as losing heavily in a war, or London being nuked, or Boris Johnson turning into a 100m tall armour plated killing machine and destroying the city.

Otherwise there are just too many vested interests.
 

Bletchleyite

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The only way we'd get a major review of the political system would be in the aftermath of a catastrophic event, such as losing heavily in a war, or London being nuked, or Boris Johnson turning into a 100m tall armour plated killing machine and destroying the city.

Otherwise there are just too many vested interests.

It would be possible for all the progressive parties to get together in a coalition on the basis of "implement proportional representation then call a general election". They seem to be heading that way.
 

JamesT

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Sadly this was wishful thinking rather than a statement of what's actually happening, which is why I said "a review" rather than "the review". Even more sadly, I think the two major Parties who have held power for the last 100 years between them, are so entrenched that it will never happen, because all of their MPs know their seats would be at serious risk if we had a fairer voting system. Yes, a fairer voting system would attract a greater number of voters and hopefully stop some of the huge voting apathy we have at present, but among MPs (most of them, in all Parties, although there are some exceptions), selfishness generally prevails.
I think the only real likelihood is if we get another hung parliament and the smaller parties make it a condition of joining a coalition. Though they'd need a bit more backbone than the LibDems past time who settled for a referendum on AV.
 

birchesgreen

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It would be possible for all the progressive parties to get together in a coalition on the basis of "implement proportional representation then call a general election". They seem to be heading that way.
It would be possible for me to date Kate Moss too but probably just as unlikely.

I would like to hope Britain could move on from it's dated systems but i've seen too many false dawns to have much hope left to be honest.
 
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