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Rail strikes discussion

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Nicholas Lewis

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This is why the 'modernisation' is massively counterproductive. What you are suggesting has huge consequences for signaller workload, as I've said before to you, and none of that is positive. Leaving the signaller to deal with issues until the last train is a recipe for disaster. 12 hours degraded working. If the signaller doesn't stop the job - things will start going wrong very quickly.

This is why this dispute is so critical and why we must stay the course and win. It affects everyone. If the signaller has a huge workload, the trains will be buggered. So much for helping passengers and the bottom line...
Is the dispute really dealing with this though? Knowing how much the signaller is now roped into getting anything done on the infrastructure the issue of signaller workload has to be factored in and i thought there were certain panels/workstation positions where you can't get any line blockages for routine work anymore?
 
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TheBigD

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Is the dispute really dealing with this though? Knowing how much the signaller is now roped into getting anything done on the infrastructure the issue of signaller workload has to be factored in and i thought there were certain panels/workstation positions where you can't get any line blockages for routine work anymore?
Correct. Some panels have a blanket ban, others have a limit on the amount of line blockages. Even some of the AB boxes now have line blockage limits.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Correct. Some panels have a blanket ban, others have a limit on the amount of line blockages. Even some of the AB boxes now have line blockage limits.
The long march to removing workers from the live rail environment has cost a fortune in constant changes to processes with all the training that entails along with staggering amounts of paperwork as the industry has sought workarounds to keep people on track but in the long run it was always going to end up with no work when trains are running unless its for safety of the line or dealing with faults. Problem is the workforce both in NR and its supply chain is largely employed on Mon-Fri working whereas its now needed at nights or the weekend hence the need to rip up T&Cs. A bit of honesty might go a long way to assuage the workforce about the underlying causes.
 

HST274

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This government are so embarrassing. But they are in no way involved in this dispute, apparently...
Best response to this was the following:
So the government are accusing strikers of deliberately causing unnecessary inconvenience to passengers and their solution to this problem is to *checks notes* intervene to create more unnecessary inconvenience to passengers? Have I got that right?
 

Bald Rick

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but this should be an 18-24mth programme to make changes

which is precisely what it is.



This is why the 'modernisation' is massively counterproductive. What you are suggesting has huge consequences for signaller workload, as I've said before to you, and none of that is positive. Leaving the signaller to deal with issues until the last train is a recipe for disaster. 12 hours degraded working. If the signaller doesn't stop the job - things will start going wrong very quickly.

This is why this dispute is so critical and why we must stay the course and win. It affects everyone. If the signaller has a huge workload, the trains will be buggered. So much for helping passengers and the bottom line...

you are coming at this from a very blinkered view. As I said in my post, if a failure is critical (and that includes any significant effect on signaller workload), then the failure should be dealt with straight away. This happens every day, on very busy lines. It happened yesterday too.

And, as I also said, if workload does become an issue for any signalling location, there is a well established process for assessing that workload, leading to regrading and/or potentially adding in new signalling positions / workstations etc. That is also used regularly.

So I’m not sure what you are worried about. You have only mentioned your workload going up - if so, speak to your LOM and ask for your location to be reassessed.

 

Starmill

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Rejected due to an increase in hours and Sunday being brought into the working week. The issue with that was than Covid-19 happened and the negotiations completely stopped.

So now there is no ticket scanning payments but there’s also no overtime, no rest days and a Sunday crew shortage
Precisely. There's quid pro quo in all negotiations.
 

handsomelife

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Still sounds like wanting to be paid twice to do the job properly. Presumably you have never worked in the real world?
This.

Jobs evolve and requirements change, modernisation has to happen, TOCs are a business at the end of the day.

If I demanded a pay rise or one off payment everytime my role introduced new technology I’d be laughed out the door.
 

Andrew1395

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What I don’t understand is why the approved pay award in March 2022 for Elizabeth Line staff ( in the platinum jubilee year) is not the approved benchmark for all rail staff?
 

Nicholas Lewis

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What I don’t understand is why the approved pay award in March 2022 for Elizabeth Line staff ( in the platinum jubilee year) is not the approved benchmark for all rail staff?
Because different companies have been negotiating individual T&Cs. In the case of Elizabeth Line its MTR Corporation (Crossrail) Limited that employ the staff although i guess TfL had some overall say.
 

Agent_Squash

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What I don’t understand is why the approved pay award in March 2022 for Elizabeth Line staff ( in the platinum jubilee year) is not the approved benchmark for all rail staff?
What does the platinum jubilee have to do with a collectively bargained pay deal?
 

Horizon22

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Because different companies have been negotiating individual T&Cs. In the case of Elizabeth Line its MTR Corporation (Crossrail) Limited that employ the staff although i guess TfL had some overall say.
What I don’t understand is why the approved pay award in March 2022 for Elizabeth Line staff ( in the platinum jubilee year) is not the approved benchmark for all rail staff?

It was also part of a pre-agreed multi-year deal; it just so happened inflation was as high as it was (is). Not sure what the Jubilee comment is all about.
 

windingroad

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Still sounds like wanting to be paid twice to do the job properly.
I believe in the private sector they call this sort of thing a "bonus" or an "incentive". I'm sure you've thought this through, but indulge me: are you against those too?
Presumably you have never worked in the real world?
The railway was a dream all this time?
 

Kite159

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The best question to Mr Lynch (comedy value wise, in my opinion) was when GMB Richard asked him if he is a Marxist or not because if he is; he wants to bring down capitalism and is into revolution!

Laughing my head off!

What twaddle!
You mean Mr Lynch isn't working for one of the core principles of the RMT (to bring down capitalism, as per their website)?

He better be careful not to get thrown out.
 

bramling

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Today has been a nightmare for me in the job that I do. I rely on the railways every working day. However, I believe that 2-4% should be accepted by the unions because otherwise all other public sector (including myself) will want the same deal as what the RMT get. It won't happen simply because of this question, where is all this new money coming from?

There isn't enough to go around as it is, and sadly, the railway is not an exception to the rule.

The problem is that this government have been quite happy to splash cash around over the last couple of years when it’s suited the agenda, right down to subsidising discount meals. Being cynical, it seems rather coincidental that many of these populist measures served to build up the popularity of a certain Mr R Sunak.

In this situation is makes it very hard to justify why you can’t justify a pay rise for public sector staff, especially when in many cases they will have worked right through Covid, including at the point where they would have been taking an unknown gamble with their health. Ditto all the pot-banging for the NHS, now a distant memory, with Johnson himself being seen to join in.

Unfortunately the clumsy handling of the last two years is coming home to roost.

Meanwhile, being even more cynical, how convenient to have a nice little story which seems to be attracting quite a bit of media attention. Keeps the whole parties/lied to parliament/didn’t follow his own laws/why didn’t he believe in his own Covid measures which cost billions and trashed our economy stories, and makes Big Dog look good in front of all the Conservative biddies (aka membership).
 
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Goldfish62

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Out of curiosity, what TOCs include Sunday as part of the working week? Mine doesn’t.

Is that for all job roles? Or is it only for new contract gateline staff types? That’s the only example I can think of.
SWR traincrew have been for many years.
 

Skie

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Presumably you have never worked in the real world?
Have you never worked anywhere a union has your back? Shame. It’s good knowing someone is looking out for you and your colleagues and keeping the employer honest, especially when they’d love more than anything to be able to change terms and conditions at the drop of a hat.
 
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which is precisely what it is.





you are coming at this from a very blinkered view. As I said in my post, if a failure is critical (and that includes any significant effect on signaller workload), then the failure should be dealt with straight away. This happens every day, on very busy lines. It happened yesterday too.

And, as I also said, if workload does become an issue for any signalling location, there is a well established process for assessing that workload, leading to regrading and/or potentially adding in new signalling positions / workstations etc. That is also used regularly.

So I’m not sure what you are worried about. You have only mentioned your workload going up - if so, speak to your LOM and ask for your location to be reassessed.
Can you tell me what failures aren't critical please? I'd like to know. All failures are critical and require additional concentration for my work. The delays will simply mount and the recovery to the service will never occur because the faults will never be fixed. Any idea that people will just be on hand magically, in an emergency, as you seem to think they will be is daft because they're actually on hand now, but NR wants to sack them all or make them night time only. This is the blind leading the blind. We should be trying to retain all our best staff, not making them work nights they don't want to do and leave because of it.

This is the hill we die on. These plans for modernisation will make the railway less safe, increase delays and not reduce costs at all. This is not reform. This is asset stripping.
 

Ex-controller

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If you’re not backing the RMT in this strike you’re basically saying that working class people should accept less pay and ultimately less share of wealth, whilst doing nothing to try and prevent it. It’s that simple.
 

Andrew1395

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It was also part of a pre-agreed multi-year deal; it just so happened inflation was as high as it was (is). Not sure what the Jubilee comment is all about.
oh ok, the TSSA website implies that the deal was not finalised until after 01 March 2022, (a one year deal). Offered a matter of weeks before the central section opened before the jubilee official celebrations.


February 2022 RPI was 8.2%

Elizabeth Line staff accepted the offer and are not part of the current dispute. So presumably a similar offer made in March 2023 could also of headed off industrial action!
 
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Efini92

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The other issue is that today's state pensions are funded by today's working age population. If you restrain the pay of the latter it will be increasingly difficult to afford the former.
If it was anyone else they would call that a Ponzi scheme.
 

baz962

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It was also part of a pre-agreed multi-year deal; it just so happened inflation was as high as it was (is). Not sure what the Jubilee comment is all about.
Pretty sure it was a new deal. It was lul and south western that got RPI deals, because they were pre agreed .
 

Signal_Box

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I hope none of the 1,800 to be made redundant are involved in vegetation management? May as well bolt a hedge-cutter to the front of every unit on the CLC line otherwise.

Off track, the teams who try to attend to line vegetation are some of the staff in the cross hairs of this mass lay plan yes.
 

Class2ldn

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Those services weren’t from the same panel? Not even the same route.
Did you miss the ones all at Selhurst, 2 trains apart both offered wrong routes, there's plenty on there that haven't been shown either.
Constantly stop start at virtually every stop signal, it was a nightmare out there.
 

alxndr

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Can you tell me what failures aren't critical please? I'd like to know. All failures are critical and require additional concentration for my work. The delays will simply mount and the recovery to the service will never occur because the faults will never be fixed.
It is sometimes more convenient, for both the signaller and faulting staff, to leave failures until a quiet period where it is easier to work around and temporarily live with the fault than find a way to grant staff access to rectify it.

To give an example from last week: struggling to get reverse on a set of points. Not needed in reverse very often, but trains very frequently passing over them in normal. We arrived on site, contacted the signaller to see about taking a blockage to access the points. The signaller laughed, informed us there was no chance of us getting in—maybe we could get 2 minutes at most—and he said he'd maintain them normal if we would pass it on to the night turn for them to come out.

That was a fairly straightforward place to get to, with the points being accessible without a blockage and only one line required for the investigation. Other places might be even more complex, needing 4 or 5 lines blocked just to access, and then 2 or 3 blocked for the investigation. Doing that would cause delays, but it might be possible to work around the fault and still run a normal service as long as nothing else fails nearby.

It does of course depend very heavily on the type of failure, the availability of margins, and the location. A busy area with multiple routes from A to B (e.g. a large station throat) is likely to have more redundancy in routes and it might be common for failures to be left until the night unless they're causing a real headache. A single or two track railway is unlikely to have that flexibility and failures are more likely to need attending there and then because that is the most efficient for that location. Even then though there are some failures that might still be left until later if the blockage required to investigate is too onerous at that time, e.g. a TPWS failure on a reversible signal.

Every failure is different and therefore handled differently. An agreement has to be made between the signaller/fault teams/control that benefits the railway best, within the balance of probability. As much as I might be itching to get in and fix a fault, it's no good to anyone if I was to insist on blocking half a major station during rush hour, or trying to fault find in 3 minute blocks. I don't like it, I want to get in and fix things, it's what I love most about my job, and I don't like that it's becoming more common even in the quieter areas with the ban on red zone working/walking, but I have to see the logic and toe the line that has been drawn by the ORR.

That said though, you can't predict what failures will happen or when, and I do agree that people need to be available to respond incase there is a real showstopper.
 

Mojo

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Just caught by surprise, but a C2C train has just gone past. I wasn't expecting anything before 7, but it is one RTT.

I just saw a freight train go through Barking too. Most signalling shifts will still be covered as night turns from Wednesday so not yet on strike.
 

Ivor

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Talk again that a law change is being pushed through that will allow agency staff to cover industrial action.

Excuse my ignorance but agency staff like myself already cover rail work but is there something ‘written’ somewhere that agency workers can’t cover industrial action? I assume there is?

I appreciate any cover will only be for CSA, Gateline & Dispatch.
 

Snow1964

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Talk again that a law change is being pushed through that will allow agency staff to cover industrial action.

Excuse my ignorance but agency staff like myself already cover rail work but is there something ‘written’ somewhere that agency workers can’t cover industrial action? I assume there is?

I appreciate any cover will only be for CSA, Gateline & Dispatch.
Press release

Government acts to make it easier for businesses to use temporary staff to help ease disruptions caused by strike action​

New law to allow businesses to supply skilled agency workers to plug staffing gaps during industrial action.

  • Government acts to help reduce disruption from strike action by removing the restrictions on employment businesses supplying temporary workers to cover striking staff
  • companies will have the freedom to fill vital roles more easily so that peoples’ daily lives remain uninterrupted
  • in addition, the government has also raised the damages cap businesses can claim against a union when a court finds a strike is unlawful
 

Ivor

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Press release

Government acts to make it easier for businesses to use temporary staff to help ease disruptions caused by strike action​

New law to allow businesses to supply skilled agency workers to plug staffing gaps during industrial action.


I see ‘under Trade Union laws’ can’t happen currently.

Thanks for clarifying with the press release.
 
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