December 2022 Timetable Changes

[JonathanH]

1tph Liverpool-Birmingham will be overcrowded easily.

It is 1tph and running with 8-coach trains. Same capacity as when it was 2tph with 4-coach trains.

 

[Peter0124]

It is 1tph and running with 8-coach trains. Same capacity as when it was 2tph with 4-coach trains.

But less journey opportunity (eg if you just miss it then you have less than an hour wait obviously). I would rather more frequent, shorter trains rather than less frequent longer trains though I understand the former is harder to implement. As long as connections are taken into consideration aswell.

 

[Class 466]

It is 1tph and running with 8-coach trains. Same capacity as when it was 2tph with 4-coach trains.

on a similar note - do we know if XC are planning on returning to the hellish days of pretty much everything being a single voyager? Must say I've enjoyed using XC more since most of it was doubled up!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Which involves doing what? Oh yes, utilising it much more highly! Which is the way everything is going.


It wasn't a question. But SBB have been granted public resources that we in this country cannot dream of. So I'm not sure how it's useful.

SBB got circa 1/3rd of its income from central govt in 2021 which is less than what its been costing to support UK railway system over the same period. However, there is huge support from individual cantons as well for the local non SBB services so difficult to compare. They also have a far more conducive environment to encourage rail travel with the Half Fare Travelcard available to all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SBB got circa 1/3rd of its income from central govt in 2021 which is less than what its been costing to support UK railway system over the same period. However, there is huge support from individual cantons as well for the local non SBB services so difficult to compare. They also have a far more conducive environment to encourage rail travel with the Half Fare Travelcard available to all.

To be fair, the Halbtax is basically a tourist tax. Think of a reasonable fare, double it, then sell a card to halve it back to what is reasonable. It is a bit like the original Network Card idea.

 

[ChrisC]

But less journey opportunity (eg if you just miss it then you have less than an hour wait obviously). I would rather more frequent, shorter trains rather than less frequent longer trains though I understand the former is harder to implement. As long as connections are taken into consideration aswell.

The loss of good connections, when trains are removed from the timetable, is the main reason that has resulted in me travelling by rail far less during this past year. When a train service is reduced from 2tph to 1tph, waits for connections can then be increased by 30 minutes. Over the past year the EMR reduced timetable on the Robin Hood Line south of Mansfield has resulted in so many journeys which used to have a wait for a connection of 10-20 minutes in Nottingham now have a wait of 40-50 minutes. This can also have other knock on affects if passengers are doing a long journey involving more than one connection. In my case the remaining hourly RHL train also no longer connects with the bus service from the village where I live. This can result in me having to leave my home around 2 hours before the departure of a train from Nottingham. If I use my car instead I can drive quite a distance in that 2 hours.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A lot will depend on the details of the timetable, in terms of connections and journey opportunities.
Deleting alternate trains and terminating paths short has had a negative impact.
There's also limited trust in TOC cooperation on connections (eg Avanti-TfW).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The loss of good connections, when trains are removed from the timetable, is the main reason that has resulted in me travelling by rail far less during this past year. When a train service is reduced from 2tph to 1tph, waits for connections can then be increased by 30 minutes. Over the past year the EMR reduced timetable on the Robin Hood Line south of Mansfield has resulted in so many journeys which used to have a wait for a connection of 10-20 minutes in Nottingham now have a wait of 40-50 minutes. This can also have other knock on affects if passengers are doing a long journey involving more than one connection. In my case the remaining hourly RHL train also no longer connects with the bus service from the village where I live. This can result in me having to leave my home around 2 hours before the departure of a train from Nottingham. If I use my car instead I can drive quite a distance in that 2 hours.

Absolutely to drive modal shift the overall end to end journey needs to be as low as reasonable and connections are to key to that especially if we see operators having to reduce services that part overlap with other operators core routes. I hope GBR have this as a central policy in future timetable design.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely to drive modal shift the overall end to end journey needs to be as low as reasonable and connections are to key to that especially if we see operators having to reduce services that part overlap with other operators core routes. I hope GBR have this as a central policy in future timetable design.

Yep. I think there are basically two options - high frequency (all routes more than 2tph, say) or co-ordinated connections. DB were classically more into the latter, so even with typically two-hourly Regionalexpress services a multi-connection journey would feel like they were every 10 minutes. The UK has traditionally done the former. Which is fine, but if you reduce the frequencies it ceases to work.

 

[cle]

Looking at Birmingham-Liverpool as the example, 1tph is probably fine city to city. And 8 cars is good.

But it does so much more than connect those two cities. What fills the frequency gap between Birmingham and Wolves, Stafford and Crewe. And Crewe being the natural split on this service, what fills Liverpool-Crewe too, and the interim frequencies?

If Birmingham or Crewe to Preston is desirable in the other slot (and I see merit there) - what fills the gap between Liverpool and Crewe?

Let's not act like the 2tph timetable did not reliably work for many years and we all of a sudden can't do it (staff shortage/illness aside but longer term) - as we did before. Doubling up services and diversifying slots makes sense. But we shouldn't just cancel long standing, reliable timetables to gain more redundancy. That's just contracting the network/managed decline - if so, probably shouldn't be on a rail fan forum

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let's not act like the 2tph timetable did not reliably work for many years and we all of a sudden can't do it (staff shortage/illness aside but longer term) - as we did before. Doubling up services and diversifying slots makes sense. But we shouldn't just cancel long standing, reliable timetables to gain more redundancy. That's just contracting the network/managed decline - if so, probably shouldn't be on a rail fan forum

The reliability of the 2tph timetable was awful, there were cancellations all over the shop. If you search back, you'll probably find me advocating dropping it to 1tph if that could make it more reliable. And that was before the stupid attempt at through services to London which really destroyed it.

 

[Watershed]

The reliability of the 2tph timetable was awful, there were cancellations all over the shop. If you search back, you'll probably find me advocating dropping it to 1tph if that could make it more reliable. And that was before the stupid attempt at through services to London which really destroyed it.

I'm afraid to say that your description does not at all line up with my experience. I used to use the service very frequently and it never had a notably higher rate of cancellations or delays than any other service. The only issue was that the trains were too short and didn't have long enough turnrounds. All of these issues are soluble.

 

[jfollows]

My usage (of the Liverpool-Birmingham services) was a number of years ago, but I changed at Crewe and split tickets at Stafford for trips to Birmingham, Birmingham University or Bromsgrove. My recollection was that half-hourly made it more a turn-up-and-go service for the return journey, and less annoying when missing a connection at Crewe on the outbound journey. Obviously before they ruined the timetable with through running south of Birmingham, my memory also was that the turnround time at Birmingham platform 4C, and at Liverpool, were both plenty and gave me time sitting on the train prior to departure in both stations (Liverpool for when I used the service to Crewe, changing there for Wilmslow, which was especially valuable being half-hourly when the Virgin Liverpool-Euston service didn't stop at Crewe).
The Birmingham platform 4C turnround was great - train arrived and I got on if I was early enough. No messing. If I was on the last minute I knew which platform to head for.
I didn't find the trains too short, but that may have changed, so there could be more of a case for hourly double-length trains, except that it messes up the turnround in Birmingham of course because it can't use platform 4C any more.
I don't have recent experience to draw on, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They were definitely too short, there was overcrowding a lot of the time.

Half hourly using 730s was I think the plan and would probably provide enough capacity.

 

[James90012]

Let's not forget the Hartford and Winsfords of the world too who have lost half of their service - though I remember there being an odd calling pattern in one direction?

 

[Kite159]

Let's not forget the Hartford and Winsfords of the world too who have lost half of their service - though I remember there being an odd calling pattern in one direction?

From memory Winsford was only hourly even with the 2tph from Birmingham to Liverpool, it was Hartford which was mostly half hourly.

 

[jfollows]

From memory Winsford was only hourly even with the 2tph from Birmingham to Liverpool, it was Hartford which was mostly half hourly.

I think that's right; a quick peruse of the pre-Covid timetable showed that the departures around the hour north from Crewe called at Winsford whereas the ones around the half-hour didn't. The calling pattern at Acton Bridge was a little more random, with some services calling at Hartford and Acton Bridge but not at Winsford, and others calling at all three.

 

[cle]

Those Hartford, Winsford calls should be maintained. Even a Liverpool-Crewe shuttle would be helpful, out of the Chester platform - with a new Brum-Preston engaged. No through running to London though, agreed - but Crewe at minimum for that connectivity. Gets you to London and Birmingham, as well as many others.

 

[craigybagel]

Those Hartford, Winsford calls should be maintained. Even a Liverpool-Crewe shuttle would be helpful, out of the Chester platform - with a new Brum-Preston engaged. No through running to London though, agreed - but Crewe at minimum for that connectivity. Gets you to London and Birmingham, as well as many others.

There's no access from Platform 9 to the WCML any more, and whilst there is access from Platform 10 it's not long enough for a 350.

 

[Peter0124]

There's no access from Platform 9 to the WCML any more, and whilst there is access from Platform 10 it's not long enough for a 350.

They could use Platform 12, is that one rarely used? I get its a through one but still.

 

[craigybagel]

They could use Platform 12, is that one rarely used? I get its a through one but still.

Indeed, there's not much booked through their during the day.

It's not likely to happen though - the powers that be have decided they're happy to keep the service hourly. The fact that this provides a worse experience for many people is beside the point. This is the new normal I fear we need to get used to with the DfT calling the shots more than ever before.

 

[MetalMicky]

Indeed, there's not much booked through their during the day.

It's not likely to happen though - the powers that be have decided they're happy to keep the service hourly. The fact that this provides a worse experience for many people is beside the point. This is the new normal I fear we need to get used to with the DfT calling the shots more than ever before.

CrossCountry is mainly used for leisure travel, but it’s leisure travel that has recovered well since the end of restrictions. This makes the capacity problems even more frustrating, especially at weekends. Remember how Shapps hailed the end of franchising as a positive development for the railways? Are we now looking at a ‘managed decline’ scenario, as is looming for TfL?

 

[The Ham]

Those Hartford, Winsford calls should be maintained. Even a Liverpool-Crewe shuttle would be helpful, out of the Chester platform - with a new Brum-Preston engaged. No through running to London though, agreed - but Crewe at minimum for that connectivity. Gets you to London and Birmingham, as well as many others.

There should be more use of shuttles.

Yes people prefer direct trains, however any train is better than none.

There could even be the option for a hybrid approach, where 1 train every 2 hours is a shuttle and the other train (to make it hourly) runs through. That would provide scope when things go wrong, a semi frequent service and done through services.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Or extend the Pottery train around to Liverpool not least to have a direct service from Stoke to Liverpool but also to keep the frequency between Crewe and Liverpool…

 

[dk1]

Or extend the Pottery train around to Liverpool not least to have a direct service from Stoke to Liverpool but also to keep the frequency between Crewe and Liverpool…

I suppose it would create excessive conflicting moves crossing all lines at Crewe so wouldn't be popular with NR.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I suppose it would create excessive conflicting moves crossing all lines at Crewe so wouldn't be popular with NR.

Milford Haven to Manchester manages enough of that…

 

[craigybagel]

People can come up with all kinds of weird solutions - but it's not really a problem that needed solving. The Liverpool - Birmingham service worked perfectly well at 2tph. The only problem is the DfT don't seem minded to pay for it anymore.

 

[darylyates17]

Forgive if its already been discussed but will any changes be happening on the Chat Moss route in December?

 

[jfollows]

Forgive if its already been discussed but will any changes be happening on the Chat Moss route in December?

Post #25 has some information

 

[dk1]

Milford Haven to Manchester manages enough of that…

Certainly does. Wouldn’t seem wise to make things worse for a service with such a limited appeal.