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Fantasy tunnelling suggestions

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Nottingham59

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Tunnels shape a railway network for the next hundred years. Once built, they are fixed and the rest of the network has to evolve around them; their size limits the loading gauge of the line in perpetuity.

So where would you put them? This is the deal:

You are in charge of a fully-funded 25-year programme to build railway tunnels. You have three tunnel boring machines at your disposal: two always working and one being refurbished or replaced or being moved to the next site. There is a single central factory located near a source of limestone, sand and gravel, designed to produce 30 metres worth of concrete lining segments every day at absolutely minimum cost. There is an agreed spoil disposal point on the East Coast somewhere in Yorkshire or Norfolk where local residents welcome the dumped material as it replenishes shorelines and counteracts coastal erosion.

Each TBM can cut 14 metres per day, or 5km per year. So after 25 years that's a total of 250km of tunnel. Don't worry about matching the TBMs to the geology, e.g wet shale under a river versus hard rock versus chalk. Assume you can do all the tunnels with a similar geology together, and then re-configure or switch machine types for next batch. They're going to wear out well before the 25 years are up!

The TBMs are HS2-sized, which is 8.8m internal diameter. This is big enough to accommodate:
  • 1 track of HS2-style railway, at 300-400km/h. (For these speeds assume the minimum radius of curvature is 5000m, and the maximum gradient of 3%.)
  • 2 tracks of conventional GB railway, with passenger trains at 110mph. (Assume 1500m curves and 2% gradient)
  • 2 tracks of conventional GB railway, with W12-gauge intermodal freights at 75mph. (1000m and 1%)
  • And you could in theory fit four London Underground tube lines into the space, if you wanted to.
Typical tunnel cross sections are shown here:
1656500239191.png 1656500263211.png
In the first diagram, the purple outline is UIC-GC gauge, used for HS2 trains. In the second, the inner green outline is for GB passenger trains, the brown flat-topped profile is W12 freight gauge. (Remember that you can't normally mix speeds. The cant required for a TGV at maximum curvature means that a slow-moving freight would slide to the side of the track and cause excessive wear.)

So where would you put the tunnels? And where, precisely, will the portals be? You can have plain tunnel, and perhaps underground junctions.

(But no excavated stations; building stations underground is massively expensive and would distort the economic premise of the thread, which is that the tunnelling work might cost £33m/km at 2015 prices, so your civil engineering budget is £330m per year. Other budgets will cover fit out, and rolling stock etc. For more information about tunnelling and costs, see the HS2 guide: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-guide-to-tunnelling-costs).

EDIT 30/06/22: Bald Rick, who know about these things, says that the HS2 Guide shows prices as of 2011, and that current prices for just building a tunnel without fit out are now around £100M/km. So your tunnelling budget is now £1Bn per year. Use it well.
 
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HSTEd

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I'm not sure, in the very long run, the 8.8m tunnel boring machine is the best bet for this sort of programme.

Your twin track tunnel is also going to have difficulties complying with evacuation requirements - you don't look like you've got room for two evacuation walkways and such - even single-track tube tunnels are now up to 5.2m in daiemter.

I would suggest you'd want fewer tunnel boring machines of the largest possible diameter.

[You could also do the Barcelona Metro thing of vertically stacked tracks in one tunnel bored to whatever the largest TBM diameter available is - it makes underground junctions much easier to engineer and allows you to do excavated stations more cheaply if you want]

But, saying that, the obvious place I'd put tunnels, probably a Pennine Base Tunnel, a Lake District Base Tunnel, and half a South Coast Shinkansen.
 

Nottingham59

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~Your twin track tunnel is also going to have difficulties complying with evacuation requirements
Yes, I did wonder about that. But I'd prefer not to worry too much about those issues in this thread. In reality, you'd adjust the bore to suit the traffic and the evacuation requirements, but I wanted to keep things simple. If you want 2x6m tunnels instead of 1x8.8m tunnel for a twin track conventional railway, that's fine by me. They should cost about the same (I think).

My first thoughts are:
  • Single track freight tunnel from just west of Ely under the lines to Kings Lynn and Norwich, and emerging to connect to a new single line heading towards Soham. 4km of tunnel and 5km of new surface line. Solves the problem of Ely for ~£200m. (Any ideas how much new surface lines should cost?)
  • Twin-bore 230km/h tunnels from Guide Bridge to Huddersfield for NPR. Western portal just east of the M60 bridge. For the Eastern portal, diverge off a redoubled Penistone line where it goes into a tunnel under Yews Hill Road. 2x27km of tunnel = £1.8Bn and 5 years (I'll do a map later).
  • Twin-bore 230km/h tunnel under Morley to four-track NPR all the way to Leeds. (Not sure about where to put the portals; I'll have to think about it.)
  • Sheffield to Meadowhall. 5km twin-track 110mph. With quadrupling the Sheaf Valley, allow four tracks all the way from Dore to Meadowhall.
  • Twin-track single bore 110mph tunnel from West Drayton to Old Oak Common, to terminate at new surface platforms at Old Oak. Western portal between W.D. and the M25. 18km of tunnel = £600m.
 

stuu

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  • Twin-track single bore 110mph tunnel from West Drayton to Old Oak Common, to terminate at new surface platforms at Old Oak. Western portal between W.D. and the M25. 18km of tunnel = £600m.
Just taking this example, your costings are wildly optimistic. £33m a mile was for single track tunnels in 2009(?) prices. 15 years of construction inflation will have probably doubled that. Then you have to fit them out, which is about the same as the construction costs. Then you need portals and access shafts. Maybe £3bn?
 

Bald Rick

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Single track freight tunnel from just west of Ely under the lines to Kings Lynn and Norwich, and emerging to connect to a new single line heading towards Soham. 4km of tunnel and 5km of new surface line. Solves the problem of Ely for ~£200m. (Any ideas how much new surface lines should cost?)

I would be surprised if bored tunnelling is even possible around Ely, the ground conditions are not good!

You need to allow at least c£100m/km of single track tunnel, probably more for one of that size, as the amount of spoil to be removed is substantial. Also the amount of concrete to go in! Also a TBM will only be good for about 20-30km max.
 

Nottingham59

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your costings are wildly optimistic.
I'm just using HS2's figures, as per the linked document, which is dated 2015. And these only include the construction costs. They probably will be twice as much as that now, maybe even three times, as Bald Rick says, but so is all construction.

(EDIT: But with a rolling programme and economies of scale, it should be possible to reduce those inflated prices, perhaps by as much as we hope to reduce electrification costs between GWEP and MML/TRU)



Agreed, fit out costs will be substantial, too. But track, overhead, signalling, rolling stock etc etc will cost whether a route is chosen above or below ground.

I'm just trying to identify where an appropriate length of tunnel could add substantial capacity in the network, or unlock a particularly limiting constraint. And yes, in poor ground or wet conditions an immersed tube solution might be a better technical approach.
 
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fishwomp

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You are in charge of a fully-funded 25-year programme to build railway tunnels. You have three tunnel boring machines at your disposal: two always working and one being refurbished or replaced or being moved to the next site. There is a single central factory located near a source of limestone, sand and gravel, designed to produce 30 metres worth of concrete lining segments every day at absolutely minimum cost. There is an agreed spoil disposal point on the East Coast somewhere in Yorkshire or Norfolk where local residents welcome the dumped material as it replenishes shorelines and counteracts coastal erosion.

Australia! Just dig downwards!! :)
 

Bald Rick

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I'm just using HS2's figures, as per the linked document, which is dated 2015. And these only include the construction costs. They probably will be twice as much as that now, maybe even three times, as Bald Rick says, but so is all construction.

You need to read the document more carefully.

The £25m/km is strictly only for the cost of the tunnelling activity itself, ie muck out and linings in, including cross passages.

It does not include the following costs:

Portals
Shafts (ventilation / evacuation / both)
TBM itself
Site compound including storage of materials
Site logistics - ie getting spoil away from the TBM and staff, segments, grout, and other materials in
Spoil treatment / disposal
Staff costs for those not directly involved in construction
Installation of local power upgrades to power the construction (note the size of the substation at West Hyde)
M&E installations in the completed tunnel (ventilation, fire defence, power, lighting)
Railway systems (track, signalling, telecoms, electrification)

The report offers costs for all these.

The report does not provide costs for everything that needs to be done before you can turn up on site with your fencing contractor to take possession of the land, eg feasibility, development, design, consents process, environmental protection / mitigation works, utilities diversion, procurement, communications, community engagement, improvement to the existing highways / rail network if required for construction, etc. Typically this is another 20% on top, but is proportionally higher for smaller projects.

nor does it offer costs for amendments or upgrades to the existing network to make the connection to the tunnels.

finally it’s all at a 2Q11 cost base. RPI since then is +43%, construction inflation is higher, let’s say 50% to today.

Put all that together and you have costs of, very approximately:

£300m fixed + £100m/km, at today’s price base.


but when pricing a job you need to do it at future cash costs, so add 3% for each year from now before you intend to start building, and +3% per year for each year after that you are building.


my offer would be a tunnel from Tottenham Hale to Wimbledon via central London. With some underground stations at key locations on the way.
 

Nottingham59

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It does not include the following costs:

Portals
Shafts (ventilation / evacuation / both)
TBM itself
Site compound including storage of materials
Site logistics - ie getting spoil away from the TBM and staff, segments, grout, and other materials in
Spoil treatment / disposal ....
Honestly, I'm not that stupid.

The figure of £33M/km I quoted above came from the worked example at the end of the document for a 7km twin-bore tunnel and included:
  • Purchase of 2 TBMs @ £16M each
  • Fixed tunnelling support costs for a slurry TBM @£45M + Time related costs @ £115M
  • Tunnel Construction: 7km @ £25M / km = £175M
  • Disposal of Excavated Materials Disposal off site to a commercial tip @ £31M
  • Tunnel Portals: 2 @ £20M each
  • Tunnel Ventilation shafts: 2 @ £13M each
  • Mechanical and electrical systems in tunnels @ £28M
 

Irascible

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Rosslaire - Cherbourg via Swansea & Exeter ( that middle bit is open to negotiation ). Addon from Belfast to Scotland. I might be feelig a tad uncharitable these days.
 

Bald Rick

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Honestly, I'm not that stupid.

The figure of £33M/km I quoted above came from the worked example at the end of the document for a 7km twin-bore tunnel and included:
  • Purchase of 2 TBMs @ £16M each
  • Fixed tunnelling support costs for a slurry TBM @£45M + Time related costs @ £115M
  • Tunnel Construction: 7km @ £25M / km = £175M
  • Disposal of Excavated Materials Disposal off site to a commercial tip @ £31M
  • Tunnel Portals: 2 @ £20M each
  • Tunnel Ventilation shafts: 2 @ £13M each
  • Mechanical and electrical systems in tunnels @ £28M

I wasn’t suggesting you were stupid! Just that the report does not include all the scope, and therefore costs, of a functional tunnelled railway. And was based on 2Q11 costs, even though it is a 2015 report.
 

Basil Jet

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Rosslaire - Cherbourg via Swansea & Exeter ( that middle bit is open to negotiation )
via Swansea, Taunton and Dorchester. Exeter is way off the line. (Google Maps has a handy "measure distance" function that draws great circles.)
 

Irascible

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via Swansea, Taunton and Dorchester. Exeter is way off the line. (Google Maps has a handy "measure distance" function that draws great circles.)

Yes, but there's a lot more people around Exeter - me, for one - ( and connections ). Bit of a wiggle isn't really a problem, the sea bed is probably going to cause some anyway.

Alternate route is Cardiff - Bristol - Bournemouth too, the latter two are just the wrong side of the Quantock-Blackdowns line :p
 

4-SUB 4732

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Ashburys to Eccles. New stations at Piccadilly and Salford Central (assuming platforms on the Ordsall Chord).

Naturally pushes and allows for trains between Sheffield (aka Cleethorpes and Nottingham) to divert via Reddish to Ashburys and the tunnel, as well as existing EMUs on the Hadfield to go to Lime Street on the Chat Moss.

Add in the Liverpool TPEs and some other odds and ends such as the TfW running to / from Stalybridge, and you’ve got about 10tph. Almost no services then need to run across the flat at Ordsall Lane, and the released capacity at Oxford Road allows meaningful extensions of services from the Rochdale area towards the Airport.

Which is basically what Crossrail 2 is
Crossrail 2 is immensely frustrating, as the route doesn’t really work. It doesn’t take all those people who work in the City to… The City.

The arguably better route would be a 24tph thing from West Ham (therefore c2c) via Canary Wharf, Tower Hill, Cannon Street, Waterloo, Victoria, Kings Road, Clapham Junction, Tooting Broadway, Wimbledon and Raynes Park, emerging from portal in the Motspur Park and New Malden areas to enable two existing Metro-style routes to combine.

It also deals with the chronic and often written-about issues of connectivity between the City and South Bank. It opens up capacity in the long term with more physical track space between Waterloo and Wimbledon, so as to enable a multitude of fast trains in peak to call at Clapham Junction, and avoids the fundamental issue of having to rebuild around Queenstown Road.

And if you assume Crossrail allows a few trains to/from Liverpool Street to run via the Electric Lines at Bow Jn for the last few miles, you could then have, with more WAML investment, trains running via both Hackney Downs and via Stratford (using the Mains between Liverpool Street and Bow) as the frequency could rise. Those passengers get what they really want which is a mixture of connectivity at Tottenham Hale, Stratford and Liverpool Street; and the two Crossrails just about meet at Canary Wharf.
 
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Nottingham59

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Littlemoss (Ashton-Under-Lyne) to Daisy Nook Park (Ashton-Under-Lyne) [1 km]

A second Western portal to the NPR Marsden line to enable NPR to handle up to 16tph across the Pennines. Would enable direct services Preston-Bolton-Man Vic-Leeds.

You don't need to build it now, but the NPR tunnel bores need to be at different depths. Will be needed when the NPR demand exceeds 8tph, which is all that HS2/NPR Piccadilly will be able to handle.

Shown in blue here:
1656591980619.png
 

Nottingham59

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Bradley junction (just north of Deighton station) to Clifton (in Brighouse) [1km]

Connects a redoubled Bradley chord to a rebuilt line past Bailiff Bridge (with some deviations to avoid new housing and the grounds of a hospital). Would enable Bradford to get 2tph or 4tph NPR service to Manchester, the Airport and Liverpool. Estimated journey time to Manchester Piccadilly: 40 minutes.
1656620527895.png
Would be worth investigating if Bradford-Halifax-Brighouse-Huddersfield-NPR works well.

Or at just 3km, you could tunnel from Brighouse to Lightcliffe instead, on a much faster alignment.
Bradford to Manchester Piccadilly via NPR in 35 minutes?
1656621887927.png
 

MotCO

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How about a link between the SE Charing Cross lines and the SWR Waterloo lines? This would address an earlier comment about access from the SW to the City, and may increase the total tph on both lines since you do not need so many free terminal platforms at CHX or Waterloo.

I'm also surprised that no-one has mentioned a SW tunnel to Heathrow.
 

SynthD

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West Ham (therefore c2c) via Canary Wharf, Tower Hill, Cannon Street, Waterloo, Victoria, Kings Road, Clapham Junction, Tooting Broadway, Wimbledon and Raynes Park
I think it should stop at Blackfriars for Thameslink.
How about a link between the SE Charing Cross lines and the SWR Waterloo lines? since you do not need so many free terminal platforms at CHX or Waterloo.
You would need a few more at CHX. SWR people don’t have difficulty getting to the Strand as it is.
I'm also surprised that no-one has mentioned a SW tunnel to Heathrow.
We crayon drawings on maps people like to be original. The tunnel to Staines or West Byfleet is known.
 

stuu

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I did once come up with a cunning plan to build a tunnel from Hither Green to Canary Wharf-City-Trafalgar Square-Victoria and Battersea, and send all south Eastern inner suburban trains that way. As well as a Battersea-Shortlands express tunnel to keep the long distance trains away. Could even have a cross-platform interchange at Victoria with CR2...
 

MotCO

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You would need a few more at CHX. SWR people don’t have difficulty getting to the Strand as it is.
I was thinking of sending the trains from Waterloo to London Bridge and away from London, rather than to CHX.
 

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Having contributed to this discussion


I think that fantasy tunnelling is a different way of approaching the same issue. I would be using my fantasy tunnelling budget to build lines that were impossible for Victorian engineers because of the technological, geographical and financial constraints.

My proposal goes back to the first discussions on HS2, and is informed by a limited knowledge of what happened when the Channel Tunnel was constructed. In particular that's the line from Paris to the tunnel, where Lille and Amiens actually competed to become the junction of the London/Paris/Brussels triangle, instead of being NIMBYs.

So I would junk all of the northern part of HS2 and do it this way instead. There would be a giant Y shaped tunnel network under the Pennines, with three portals, one north of Birmingham, and one each in Lancashire and Yorkshire. Stoke and Derby would compete for the southern portal, all of the towns east of Manchester and west of Leeds would compete for the Lancashire and Yorkshire portals. It is perfect for the so called levelling up agenda.

I might have a bit of my 250km tunnel budget spare, which I would use on my two pet local projects: a tunnel for trams under Cambridge and a tunnel to eliminate the Welwyn bottleneck on the ECML.

But if it is EU money then definitely Cherbourg to Rosslare, calling in Wales and Cornwall to encourage an independent spirit!
 

matacaster

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Bradley junction (just north of Deighton station) to Clifton (in Brighouse) [1km]

Connects a redoubled Bradley chord to a rebuilt line past Bailiff Bridge (with some deviations to avoid new housing and the grounds of a hospital). Would enable Bradford to get 2tph or 4tph NPR service to Manchester, the Airport and Liverpool. Estimated journey time to Manchester Piccadilly: 40 minutes.
View attachment 116959
Would be worth investigating if Bradford-Halifax-Brighouse-Huddersfield-NPR works well.

Or at just 3km, you could tunnel from Brighouse to Lightcliffe instead, on a much faster alignment.
Bradford to Manchester Piccadilly via NPR in 35 minutes?
View attachment 116960
Shame you started at brighouse as the junction from transpennine route to brighouse line is painfully slow. Can you fix that for me somehow?
 

D6130

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But if it is EU money then definitely Cherbourg to Rosslare, calling in Wales and Cornwall to encourage an independent spirit!
What gauge would you have in the Rosslare-South Wales section and therefore where would you have the - very expensive - gauge changing apparatus?

TBH, if it were to be financed by the EU I would imagine that the tunnel would run directly from Rosslare to Cherbourg! Such a scheme - while extremely unlikely to happen - would perhaps encourage the reopening and modernisation of the Rosslare-Waterford line.
 

Blindtraveler

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HS saltire. Under the North Sea from Aberdeen to Orkney and Shetland. A long way for a shortcut some might say but there seems little point putting an Orkney or Shetland tunnel from Caithness because you then got the TV slow process of bringing passengers boarding high speed trains on these islands to the Central belt of Scotland where they might well want to go and would then choose to fly. Getting them to Aberdeen and then perhaps doing some speed upgrades and grade separation with more tunnels on the ecml, perhaps one under the forth from Fife as well l-word be very ambitious. Also almost certainly over budget but still as this is fantasy then why not
 

Nottingham59

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the junction from transpennine route to brighouse line is painfully slow.
That junction will have to be rebuilt as part of TRU anyway.

According to https://railmap.azurewebsites.net/Public/SpeedsMap , the speed of the turnout is 15mph, and around the Bradley curve the limit is 35mph. But that curve has a radius of about 7-800m, which should allow 60-70mph, with the right turnout from the main lines. So the speed can be fixed.

I note that the mainline between Huddersfield and Marsden has curves that are tighter than the Bradley curve. I think they are going to regret choosing not to build the new line from Manchester all the way to Huddersfield.
 
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