Brexit matters

[WestCoast]

Our (hard) Brexit is a contributory factor of course among other factors, UK citizens have no automatic right of entry anymore to France (and onwards to other Schengen countries) meaning that the border guards have to slow down as they are expected to check things like compliance with 90 day stay limit through stamps. No idea what checks they have to do on vehicles etc now. In reality these will mostly be spot checks for UK citizens, but I've been asked a couple of questions entering Denmark and also Germany mainly about length of stay and once whether I had a return ticket. Prior to the end of the transition it was just an identity check. The new ETIAS system coming in will help a lot with it as I believe it tracks entries/exits automatically but I don't see how (hard) Brexit can be taken out of it. Some sort of EU-UK mobility arrangement in the future will help even further.

 

[alex397]

OK. So if your point is that, it's the first year of international travel and there are therefore teething problems getting the post-Brexit arrangements it all set up correctly which you'd expect to be resolved over the next few months, then I'd agree that would be fair to mention Brexit. Was that your point?

My point? I made it quite clear. We wouldn’t have such massive queues if it was for Brexit, regardless of any failures from the French authorities.

I would say that it's important to differentiate if there is a reasonable possibility of confusion. If - as in this case - it's blindingly obvious from the context that you can only be talking about the French Government, and no reasonable person would think otherwise, then it would seem OK to just say 'the French'. It's more concise, and saying, 'the French' or 'the British' or 'the Americans' etc. when the context makes it clear which group within that country you're referring to is a perfectly normal part of the English language. Think for example about how often, when reporting the Russian invasion of Ukraine, we say, 'the Ukrainians' or 'Ukraine' when we are obviously actually referring to 'the Ukrainian Government' or 'some Ukrainian soldiers' etc. I suspect you don't object to that usage.

The context isn’t always clear, and I think it’s important to differentiate. And yes, I prefer it if people say ‘the Ukrainian authorities’ rather than ‘the Ukrainians’.

That sounds like you're saying that it's reasonable and OK for the French to take a carelessly vindictive attitude towards UK citizens on the grounds of blaming the UK for Brexit. Hopefully, it's obvious that it's not OK for any country to take that attitude.

Is there any evidence they are acting vindictively towards us?
My point is, why should we expect the French authorities to bend over backwards to invest in something that was the UK’s doing? It doesn’t make economic sense from their perspective. I don’t think it’s because they want to be awkward or difficult.

 

[TwoYellas]

Some negative propaganda denigrating Polish folk who came to Britain here, which I highlighted in my post #4346.

In view of this, to add a more realistic and balanced picture, I'd like to salute the generosity of the great Polish people by helping over a million refugees fleeing the war. I'd sooner replace small minded people who spend an unhealthy amount of time complaining about immigration and slandering people with kind hearted Polish folk.

 

[Snow1964]

And why, exactly, are these border checks required this year when they weren't in years past?

Because Brexit transition rules (effectively no change from when we were in UK) have expired.

Now each passport has to be scanned, checked it matches the holder, and a French entry stamp added.

It is another disadvantage of Brexit. But Brexiteers think slow extra administration like this is a good idea which is presumably why they voted for it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Some negative propaganda denigrating Polish folk who came to Britain here, which I highlighted in my post #4346.

In view of this, to add a more realistic and balanced picture, I'd like to salute the generosity of the great Polish people by helping over a million refugees fleeing the war. I'd sooner replace small minded people who spend an unhealthy amount of time complaining about immigration and slandering people with kind hearted Polish folk.

And of course the over 100 polish airmen who fought alongside us in the Battle Of Britain.

It is somewhat amusing to remind certain people of this (and other international involvement that helped save Britain's skin) when the very same people who often go off on one about immigrants and the like are also the kind of people who claim to support our armed forces etc etc.

 

[Enthusiast]

What, exactly, are the "serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties" that the UK is facing, and how is the UK government's proposed action "restricted with regard to scope and duration"?

Businesses in both NI and GB are suffering supply problems across the Irish Sea (with some GB businesses having ceased trading with NI entirely). Any such restrictions within different parts of a single sovereign nation should be seen as serious. The societal problems are mentioned every time the Protocol is. It has caused the Stormont Assembly to be all but defunct since February of this year, with the elected Unionists effectively refusing to participate in its business until the Protocol is modified to their satisfaction. I would call that a fairly serious societal difficulty.

The UK government's action should be to remove the obstacles that are preventing the Assembly from functioning and the main obstacle is the border in the Irish Sea. I don't understand how anybody can see it as acceptable for there to be a customs border within a sovereign nation, installed at the behest of a supra-national foreign power. I understand the reason for the UK government having agreed to it and if it was operated sensibly it would probably work. But it isn't and it doesn't and it is clearly is causing the type of problems which A16 envisaged when it was drafted and agreed. I believe the part of the Protocol that provides for that border is suspended until a more pragmatic solution can be agreed and its duration should be until a satisfactory alternative arrangement can be agreed. If the EU believes its Single Market is being contaminated by the (less than) 0.5% of goods entering its territory across the Irish border, it may concentrate their minds to agree a solution. Before Brexit was finalised there was no such urgency.

 

[Typhoon]

Because Brexit transition rules (effectively no change from when we were in UK) have expired.

Now each passport has to be scanned, checked it matches the holder, and a French entry stamp added.

It is another disadvantage of Brexit. But Brexiteers think slow extra administration like this is a good idea which is presumably why they voted for it.

You could argue that it is a Brexit Opportunity if more people remain here and holiday in the UK. (That's one to add to your list Mr Rees Mogg.)

 

[ainsworth74]

You could argue that it is a Brexit Opportunity if more people remain here and holiday in the UK. (That's one to add to your list Mr Rees Mogg.)

Hmm I wonder what we'd call a British version of the Juche* ideology?

*The state ideology of North Korea which prioritises self-reliance in all things but especially political, economic and military self-reliance. Wiki has a fair bit here for those interested.

 

[Cloud Strife]

@DynamicSpirit.

I didn't have to look very far to find a couple of quotes (see first 2 above). It's clear what it is, you seem to be backing it. Not getting a very good image of yourself. Maybe you agree that calling a family "scummy" is ok too.

Given that I'm a Polish citizen and speak the language, I think I'm quite able to comment on the behaviour of my compatriots. The family in question were scummy and completely lacking in any sort of class.

About the French border controls that everyone is arguing about above: are we 100% certain that the French are to blame? Dover is actually a little bit strange in that the French Police aux Frontieres controls are *before* the UK exit checks, but they're contained within the same lane. If the UK close their 'half' of the lane, then the French cannot do any checks in that lane.

In view of this, to add a more realistic and balanced picture, I'd like to salute the generosity of the great Polish people by helping over a million refugees fleeing the war. I'd sooner replace small minded people who spend an unhealthy amount of time complaining about immigration and slandering people with kind hearted Polish folk.

I can assure you that not everyone has warmly welcomed them. There's a substantial amount of resentment too. Most people are very quick to shout down the resentful ones, but the resentment (usually from scummy, low-class types) is still there. There are also problems with housing and among the people doing jobs like cleaning, because Ukrainians will do the job cheaper and under the table.

 

[TwoYellas]

The family in question were scummy and completely lacking in any sort of class.

The irony of you writing this is quite astonishing!

 

[roversfan2001]

The irony of you writing this is quite astonishing!

It's really quite crazy how you appear to be claiming to know better than someone who was actually there at the time!

 

[TwoYellas]

I can assure you that not everyone has warmly welcomed them. There's a substantial amount of resentment too. Most people are very quick to shout down the resentful ones, but the resentment (usually from scummy, low-class types) is still there.

Intriguing how the exact same types are the ones who obsess about asylums seekers, Rwanda policy, immigration here as well. Just goes to show that some aspects are the same no matter what part of the world.

It's really quite crazy how you appear to be claiming to know better than someone who was actually there at the time!

Well, er, won't be long till 'footys' back.

 

[roversfan2001]

Well, er, won't be long till 'footys' back.

Ironic coming from somebody who's last *73* posts have been in the General Discussion section, but we digress.

 

[RT4038]

Intriguing how the exact same types are the ones who obsess about asylums seekers, Rwanda policy, immigration here as well. Just goes to show that some aspects are the same no matter what part of the world.

.

Usually those who feel the most economically and culturally threatened by such things.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The family in question were scummy and completely lacking in any sort of class.

There are plenty of similar families who are native Brits so I'm really not sure what your point is?

Infact all the behaviours you have mentioned (going to the doctors over "little" things, claiming as much benefits as you are eligible for etc) for a start don't actually strike me as "scummy" at all - they sound normal, but also are behaviours you see in various people regardless of nationality.

 

[TwoYellas]

Usually those who feel the most economically and culturally threatened by such things.

No. People lacking in class and who exude 'scumminess' (who obssess about refugees fleeing war, immigration or Brexit to an extreme degree) are from all stratas of society.

(Using terms brought up earlier)

 

[AlterEgo]

And why, exactly, are these border checks required this year when they weren't in years past?

But Dover port has had massive delays for as long as I can remember.

Dover delays force UK Home Office to send in reinforcements

British officials drafted in to work with French border police after ‘extraordinary disruption’ caused by security checks

www.theguardian.com

First Friday of the summer holidays, there you go, also caused by French staffing of the border.

Was this one because of Brexit as well? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-18307471

You just never used to read about them if you didn't live down south because there wasn't anything all-encompassing like Brexit to hook them into.

Even if it does take longer to stamp passports rather than just glance as before, that is a scenario which has been coming for years. It is hardly a surprise that better staffing was needed, and I'm afraid that is on the French to provide at Dover port, as the controls are juxtaposed.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Intriguing how the exact same types are the ones who obsess about asylums seekers, Rwanda policy, immigration here as well. Just goes to show that some aspects are the same no matter what part of the world.

It's more intriguing that you're pigeon-holing me as some kind of 'type' when I sit firmly on the centre-left politically. I'm well aware of how my compatriots behave, and they are no angels. How do you feel about the fact that some of them were and are continuing to spread a lot of lies about maternity care in the UK? Did you know that the myth that "the UK won't help you if you're less than 12 weeks pregnant" is spread by Polish women online? Did you know that they often spread misinformation about abortion rights for their own political purposes?

Is FoM a success? Absolutely. Could it have been better? Of course, but we have the benefit of hindsight n ow.

Infact all the behaviours you have mentioned (going to the doctors over "little" things, claiming as much benefits as you are eligible for etc) for a start don't actually strike me as "scummy" at all - they sound normal, but also are behaviours you see in various people regardless of nationality.

Perhaps I haven't explained it too well, but my point is that these things were very very prominent among the 2004-era migrants. You'll find that the 'older' Poles (especially the children and grandchildren of the war generation) are equally disappointed by such behaviour, and there continues to be a very large social gap between them and the 'newer' Poles. That's why I noticed their behaviour, because it was really out of line, including using racist language towards people on the bus.

Imagine you live in a poor area with limited social services as it is. Now you see the 'Eastern Europeans' start to take up time at the GP with really trivial nonsense, and your mother can't get seen because of it. How would you feel? Frustrated? Angry? Annoyed?

I don't like Leavers and Brexiteers in general, yet as a centre-left type, I understand their frustrations. We abandoned a lot of these communities to Tommy Robinson and his fellow morons, and we shouldn't be surprised that they were radicalised against the EU as a result.

 

[TwoYellas]

It's more intriguing that you're pigeon-holing me as some kind of 'type' when I sit firmly on the centre-left politically. I'm well aware of how my compatriots behave, and they are no angels. How do you feel about the fact that some of them were and are continuing to spread a lot of lies about maternity care in the UK? Did you know that the myth that "the UK won't help you if you're less than 12 weeks pregnant" is spread by Polish women online? Did you know that they often spread misinformation about abortion rights for their own political purposes?

Have a nice weekend. Can't say it's been a pleasure!

 

[AlterEgo]

It's more intriguing that you're pigeon-holing me as some kind of 'type'

Some British people think all Poles are either noble-savage minimum wage key worker heroes or Battle of Britain pilots. Either way, Poles are usually portrayed as serving liberal Britain's interests, especially in any debate about the EU.

Anyone who has been to Poland knows it is a wonderful but very complex country, and, of course, the type of Pole that leaves their family to go 1500 miles and work in a hotel or a nursing home isn't always the same as the stay-at-home Pole who votes for Law and Justice. I tend to think the Poles are one of the European peoples closest - in aggregate - to the English. There is a good reason why Poles have found it easy to come here and integrate very successfully.

I have found this and related threads continuously revealing when it comes to British people's understanding of other European peoples. In my view Britain sits somewhere in the mid-point of European governments in terms of "right wing" ideology and people who think we are a Rainy Fascist Island simply need to get out more. Or, if they are getting out, actually opening their eyes.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Some British people think all Poles are either noble-savage minimum wage key worker heroes or Battle of Britain pilots. Either way, Poles are usually portrayed as serving liberal Britain's interests, especially in any debate about the EU.

Yes, the truth is that Poland was actually one of the key problems with the Brexit referendum. Had the Polish government reached out and said publicly that they were willing to accept a brake on FoM and on benefits for Polish citizens, the pressure on the other A9 countries would have been tremendous. In 2016, Poland was still seen as a regional leader (not anymore, but that's another story), and they had the clout to find a compromise that would have scuppered the Leave campaign.

On the other hand, Brexit was an absolute disaster, as it was widely perceived that Poland had lost their strongest ally in the EU.

Anyone who has been to Poland knows it is a wonderful but very complex country, and, of course, the type of Pole that leaves their family to go 1500 miles and work in a hotel or a nursing home isn't always the same as the stay-at-home Pole who votes for Law and Justice. I tend to think the Poles are one of the European peoples closest - in aggregate - to the English. There is a good reason why Poles have found it easy to come here and integrate very successfully.

It is a very complex place. I struggle to understand some of the dynamics, especially in families, and I have friends who left Poland because of those exact family dynamics. My colleague today was in tears, because her family expects her to give up her weekend to work on some project for an aunt. She doesn't feel able to say no, even though she's expected to do it for free. Certainly some of the migration from Poland was for this exact reason: escaping from crushing family relations.

This is why I take such offence to @TwoYellas , because it's obvious that they don't understand how the dynamics of Polish migration to the UK has worked. I know how they think and behave, and the fears of working class Brexit voters are not entirely unfounded. They might not be eating swans, but they also aren't all angels. I also see the harm done by mass emigration from Eastern Poland, and I'm not sure that Poland will recover so easily from it in terms of access to public services.

If anything, I'd say that your observation that the Poles are like the English is very true, even down to the extreme polarisation in politics (or more accurately, over Brexit) that you don't see in places like Germany.

I have found this and related threads continuously revealing when it comes to British people's understanding of other European peoples. In my view Britain sits somewhere in the mid-point of European governments in terms of "right wing" ideology and people who think we are a Rainy Fascist Island simply need to get out more. Or, if they are getting out, actually opening their eyes.

The UK is quite a straightforward place politically. It's very diverse, and I consider the Johnson government to be a short term blip, nothing more. The Johnson embrace of American culture wars and idiotic phrases didn't sit well with me, and I really hope that the UK moves away from it and back towards a more consensus style of politics.

But yes, in terms of right wing politics, the Tories have nothing on various nasty spiteful groups like Vox in Spain or Konfederacja in Poland.

Have a nice weekend. Can't say it's been a pleasure!

Pity, I was looking forward to more Britsplaning.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Perhaps I haven't explained it too well, but my point is that these things were very very prominent among the 2004-era migrants. You'll find that the 'older' Poles (especially the children and grandchildren of the war generation) are equally disappointed by such behaviour, and there continues to be a very large social gap between them and the 'newer' Poles. That's why I noticed their behaviour, because it was really out of line, including using racist language towards people on the bus.

Imagine you live in a poor area with limited social services as it is. Now you see the 'Eastern Europeans' start to take up time at the GP with really trivial nonsense, and your mother can't get seen because of it. How would you feel? Frustrated? Angry? Annoyed?

You mention racist language and taking up time at the GP with trivial nonsense - again I've seen the same from Brits too.
Infact every single type of behaviour you've mentioned British people display too. So I still don't get your point.
Would I feel annoyed in certain circumstances? Yes. But no different to when Brits do exactly the same thing.

 

[TwoYellas]

This is why I take such offence to @TwoYellas , because it's obvious that they don't understand how the dynamics of Polish migration to the UK has worked. I know how they think and behave, and the fears of working class Brexit voters are not entirely unfounded.

I had bid you goodbye. But blimey, YOU are offended! After all your 'insights' of Polish society!

This has got to be a wind up - surely, I mean this is barely believable stuff!

 

[alex397]

But Dover port has had massive delays for as long as I can remember.

Certainly not to the levels we see now. I imagine most people and organisations who are impacted by this would agree.
For example, the whole town of Dover was cut off from the bus network because of port congestion today, and this has happened more than once in recent times.

 

[najaB]

Businesses in both NI and GB are suffering supply problems across the Irish Sea (with some GB businesses having ceased trading with NI entirely). Any such restrictions within different parts of a single sovereign nation should be seen as serious. The societal problems are mentioned every time the Protocol is.

Businesses both in NI and GB are suffering supply problems in general. You might not have heard but there's a supply chain crisis pretty much everywhere in the world at the moment. The issues that exist between GB and NI aren't helped by the UK governments tardiness in constructing and commissioning the requisite facilities to conduct those checks which are required either.

The permanent facilities for the operation of post-Brexit checks at Northern Ireland ports will be delayed by another 2 years, a Stormont committee has been told.

It is yet another example of infrastructure required by Brexit taking longer than expected to construct.

There have already been delays to numerous inland-border facilities, which are thought to have been influential in the UK Government’s decision to postpone customs checks in Great Britain by 6 months.

Denis McMahon, Permanent Secretary to Northern Ireland’s Department of Agriculture, confirmed the delay earlier

Permanent customs facilities in Northern Ireland won’t be ready before 2023

The permanent facilities for the operation of post-Brexit checks at Northern Ireland ports will be delayed by another 2 years, a Stormont committee has been to...

trans.info

It has caused the Stormont Assembly to be all but defunct since February of this year, with the elected Unionists effectively refusing to participate in its business until the Protocol is modified to their satisfaction. I would call that a fairly serious societal difficulty.

And I suppose the Northern Ireland Agreement was responsible for the Stormont Assembly not sitting between 2002 and 2007 and again between 2017 and 2020 as well? Stormont has been suspended for almost as many years than it's been actually able to function.

But Dover port has had massive delays for as long as I can remember.

Dover has had the occasional day of delays here and there, not for weeks at a time as it has this year.

 

[Cloud Strife]

And I suppose the Northern Ireland Agreement was responsible for the Stormont Assembly not sitting between 2002 and 2007 and again between 2017 and 2020 as well? Stormont has been suspended for almost as many years than it's been actually able to function.

Speaking of Stormont, it's about time to make it clear to the parties there that either Stormont resumes or the money is completely stopped. I'd go further and tell the DUP in particular that if they don't grow up, the rules will be changed and the second largest Unionist party will be able to assume the job of the deputy First Minister.

Dover has had the occasional day of delays here and there, not for weeks at a time as it has this year.

Checking now, it looks like the French PAF are blaming some sort of incident in the Channel Tunnel, but Eurotunnel are saying that it's nonsense. I wonder if this wasn't a wildcat strike by the PAF to send some kind of message towards their bosses?

 

[AlterEgo]

The UK is quite a straightforward place politically. It's very diverse, and I consider the Johnson government to be a short term blip, nothing more. The Johnson embrace of American culture wars and idiotic phrases didn't sit well with me, and I really hope that the UK moves away from it and back towards a more consensus style of politics.

I hope this happens with a Labour government. I have never voted Tory and dislike Labour right now, but it is time for someone else to have a go and will vote Labour at the next election.

Nonetheless, I fear the Americanisation of our politics, and the total derangement of our domestic scene by American issues is an increasing trend.

 

[TwoYellas]

don't like Leavers and Brexiteers in general, yet as a centre-left type, I understand their frustrations. We abandoned a lot of these communities to Tommy Robinson and his fellow morons, and we shouldn't be surprised that they were radicalised against the EU as a result.

Maybe I was a tad harsh in some of my comments earlier. But your remarks could be easily misconstrued and seemed very generalised. Just think how they play out to people looking for a scapegoat. And let's face it, many people don't need much encouragement to start hating on whole groups. Especially in hard times.

I do not want to start the whole debate about Polish people again and I don't doubt you've heard unsavoury remarks. But you get good and bad traits in people from all backgrounds and usually most people just want to earn a living and give their family a future. I've known fantastic Poles in the past who work very hard and enjoy a jar or 8 on the weekend!

But I agree you've got to engage with alienated communities in Britain and give them opportunities. As well as more realistic news about other nationalities to bring folk together and quell support of the far-right.

 

[jon0844]

He wasn't doing the negotiating. As I recall he ran away after the referendum result.

I am not sure Farage expected, or even wanted, to win the referendum. His grift relied on continuing to campaign for Brexit, not for it to actually happen.

 

[najaB]

I am not sure Farage expected, or even wanted, to win the referendum. His grift relied on continuing to campaign for Brexit, not for it to actually happen.

Indeed. He had quite a racket going - claiming the salary for a job that he also got (one would assume) substantial donations to campaign to abolish.