Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[JaJaWa]

If that part of the train is already crush loaded, then if even more passengers are trying to force their way on, the dwell will extend, thereby reducing throughput.

What’s the plan for passengers that want to get off? Carrying them through to the termini?

 

[AM9]

What’s the plan for passengers that want to get off? Carrying them through to the termini?

If they are near a door that won't open they will be in a position to ask that the buttons are cleared. Passengers on the platform forcing themselves onto a train that is already so full that the standees are pushing the buttons can only make the situation worse.

 

[greatkingrat]

Very few trains are genuinely crush loaded. The main issue is people choosing to stand in the vestibules and leaning against the button, rather than move down the carriage.

 

[hwl]

That's always been the suggestion although I'm sure I recall someone saying 3tph to each (as a throwaway comment which could have been wrong) in a Geoff Marshall video a few years back

4tph to T4 and 2tph to T5 long term

 

[AM9]

Very few trains are genuinely crush loaded. The main issue is people choosing to stand in the vestibules and leaning against the button, rather than move down the carriage.

Given the segmented operation of the line at the moment, I doubt that loadings (especially peak loadings) are representative of future normal loading of services.

 

[Horizon22]

Very few trains are genuinely crush loaded. The main issue is people choosing to stand in the vestibules and leaning against the button, rather than move down the carriage.

Particularly too at Paddington for Heathrow services; the rear is increasingly absolutely packed with people and huge suitcases with loads of seats at the front. There’s also no excuse not to walk though (or along the platform) considering it’s a through corridor but people have been doing this for decades so it’s not necessarily new behaviour!

Through running of services will likely change this pattern.

 

[345 050]

4tph to T4 and 2tph to T5 long term

This does sound familiar, I recall the original plans were just 4tph to Terminal 4, and then extra 2tph were reallocated from West Drayton to serve Terminal 5. I imagine the original plan was to do 4tph to Terminal 4 and wait for full service before introducing the extra trains to T5, but I guess this was changed due to the closure and slow restart of operations at T4.

Particularly too at Paddington for Heathrow services; the rear is increasingly absolutely packed with people and huge suitcases with loads of seats at the front. There’s also no excuse not to walk though (or along the platform) considering it’s a through corridor but people have been doing this for decades so it’s not necessarily new behaviour!

Through running of services will likely change this pattern.

It does seem particularly bad, most of the train is pretty empty, except the 2 carriages at the end. It doesn't help now there's stress about which platform the Heathrow service is going from, once people get on they are just thankful to be on train and can't be bothered to put any more effort in. Surprised these passengers aren't bombarded with announcements about moving down the train, like the announcements at the low level station at Paddington. Not sure if EL staff are even posted at platform 12, these trains are dispatched by GWR staff.

 

[Benjwri]

Surprised these passengers aren't bombarded with announcements about moving down the train, like the announcements at the low level station at Paddington. Not sure if EL staff are even posted at platform 12, these trains are dispatched by GWR staff.

When I got a Heathrow train a few weeks ago, with 5 minutes till departure, the platform staff shouted at me to just get on when I tried to walk down the platform. Once I was on the train it was too busy to move down.

 

[XAM2175]

If they are near a door that won't open they will be in a position to ask that the buttons are cleared. Passengers on the platform forcing themselves onto a train that is already so full that the standees are pushing the buttons can only make the situation worse.

Very few trains are genuinely crush loaded. The main issue is people choosing to stand in the vestibules and leaning against the button, rather than move down the carriage.

If you're on the platform and a door doesn't open it's not like you're very far away from another one!

 

[Horizon22]

This does sound familiar, I recall the original plans were just 4tph to Terminal 4, and then extra 2tph were reallocated from West Drayton to serve Terminal 5. I imagine the original plan was to do 4tph to Terminal 4 and wait for full service before introducing the extra trains to T5, but I guess this was changed due to the closure and slow restart of operations at T4.


It does seem particularly bad, most of the train is pretty empty, except the 2 carriages at the end. It doesn't help now there's stress about which platform the Heathrow service is going from, once people get on they are just thankful to be on train and can't be bothered to put any more effort in. Surprised these passengers aren't bombarded with announcements about moving down the train, like the announcements at the low level station at Paddington. Not sure if EL staff are even posted at platform 12, these trains are dispatched by GWR staff.

There's only very occasionally someone from Elizabeth Line around, but the vast majority of the time it's GWR dispatchers.

 

[Kite159]

I find the trains at Paddington do load up from both ends, although most likely down to having entrances at both ends of the train. Also from memory exits at Ealing/Southall*/Hayes are at the country end of the station so regular passengers end up that end of the train for a speedy exit.

(*not sure about Southall as I haven't visited since the new building opened)

 

[jnjkerbin]

I happened to make a pair of tube journeys yesterday which involved touching out at Oxford Circus to go into a shop, and then touching in to make an onward journey from Bond Street 8 minutes later. Both of these journeys have been combined into a single one on my Oyster statement. I can't see a reference to this OSI anywhere, including on TfLs list of OSIs, so I guess this must be quite recently added to facilitate changes onto the EL once it starts serving Bond Street.

 

[AM9]

Also from memory exits at Ealing/Southall*/Hayes are at the country end of the station so regular passengers end up that end of the train for a speedy exit.

(*not sure about Southall as I haven't visited since the new building opened)

Similarly on the GE sections, many (a majority) of the stations have entrances/exists at the country end (the GER that built them was not inexperienced in very high commuter volumes), and some of the stations have a high level of churn where passengers board/alight to travel further out. The frequency of services have tended to encourage passengers to walk further along the platform even if it maens catching the following train.

 

[Snow1964]

TfL issued a late supplement for their Board meeting on Wednesday 27th, which includes the Q1 figures and has a graph of Elizabeth line usage on page 7 (Elizabeth line is sixth graph), looks like it peaked at about 212% of pre-covid (TfL rail), but usage has since fallen

(sorry don’t know how to copy and display a graph on an IPad)

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/b2622/Supplementary%20Agenda%20Wednesday%2027-Jul-2022%2010.00%20Board.pdf?T=9

 

[SamYeager]

TfL issued a late supplement for their Board meeting on Wednesday 27th, which includes the Q1 figures and has a graph of Elizabeth line usage on page 7 (Elizabeth line is sixth graph), looks like it peaked at about 212% of pre-covid (TfL rail), but usage has since fallen

Usage may have fallen but it still seems to be above the estimated usage which won't hurt TfL income.

 

[Bigbru]

Usage may have fallen but it still seems to be above the estimated usage which won't hurt TfL income.

The Elizabeth Line was also indirectly affected by the strike action, having to run less trains.

 

[Taunton]

Particularly too at Paddington for Heathrow services; the rear is increasingly absolutely packed with people and huge suitcases with loads of seats at the front. There’s also no excuse not to walk though (or along the platform)

This is an issue with entrances right at one end (as typically at termini), the increasing trend to open trains just a few minutes before departure, and no information about how long to departure until the door chimes go, and then it's instantly 'stand back and slam doors'. The days of whistles being blown 30 seconds before departure are gone. Once you've actually missed a departure because of this as you are halfway walking up a train to more space at the front (DLR at Tower Gateway, looking at you), it just encourages passengers to leap in the first door they come to.

Of course, once people have packed in to standee positions at the rear, it becomes difficult to move forward anyway. The industry still hasn't understood that the statements about how easy it is to move along the train with wide gangways involves the same floorspace that another part of the industry has proudly announced as part of the train's great capacity, with passengers jammed in at 6 to the square metre.

 

[Horizon22]

This is an issue with entrances right at one end (as typically at termini), the increasing trend to open trains just a few minutes before departure, and no information about how long to departure until the door chimes go, and then it's instantly 'stand back and slam doors'. The days of whistles being blown 30 seconds before departure are gone. Once you've actually missed a departure because of this as you are halfway walking up a train to more space at the front (DLR at Tower Gateway, looking at you), it just encourages passengers to leap in the first door they come to.

Of course, once people have packed in to standee positions at the rear, it becomes difficult to move forward anyway. The industry still hasn't understood that the statements about how easy it is to move along the train with wide gangways involves the same floorspace that another part of the industry has proudly announced as part of the train's great capacity, with passengers jammed in at 6 to the square metre.

Ultimately people need to move down the platform before boarding. But people jump on in a blind panic, even though there’s many minutes until departure time. Certainly with Elizabeth line services there’s no “opening just a few minutes before departure”. It’s just a somewhat sheep mentality. For the Heathrow trains that normally depart from P11, there’s a CIS screen literally right at the entrance to the platform so people can easily judge how long they have. There are probably more tourists on these services however who don’t understand the system; it’s ironic as being at the front will also mean less walking at Heathrow.

That being said, pretty much every terminal I’ve been too, there is always substantially more room at the front on anything longer than 4/5 coaches.

In a few months, Paddington & Liverpool St won’t be terminals (bar a very small number of early morning / late night trains) so this is all academic anyway.

 

[James H]

Tonight's Hidden London Hangouts is about Bond Street -

 

[Basil Jet]

Red versions of "Station Closed" roundels would look good on the platforms at Down Street, South Kentish Town etc.

 

[Snow1964]

For the Heathrow trains that normally depart from P11, there’s a CIS screen literally right at the entrance to the platform so people can easily judge how long they have.

It would be more obvious to passengers if they had put duplicate screens every 40-50m along platform so can see how many minutes as they walk along the platform.

Slower walkers will take about 4 minutes to walk along and judging time isn’t always easy if not used to taking the train, or your local train is 2car so don’t get same problem

 

[Acton1991]

If you're on the platform and a door doesn't open it's not like you're very far away from another one!

By the time you’ve spend a bit of time trying to work out why the door isn’t opening, then realising it’s not opening for some reason, and then moving to another door that’s already busy, it doesn’t leave you with much time.

It’s also just not very customer friendly, and the fact that they’re not looking at a solve speaks volumes!

 

[XAM2175]

By the time you’ve spend a bit of time trying to work out why the door isn’t opening, then realising it’s not opening for some reason, and then moving to another door that’s already busy, it doesn’t leave you with much time.

It’s also just not very customer friendly, and the fact that they’re not looking at a solve speaks volumes!

Do you not think there's a certain level of validity in the safety reason given?

 

[Acton1991]

Do you not think there's a certain level of validity in the safety reason given?

I don’t think so, no. I think this was a design oversight.

 

[ijmad]

Presumably it's something they can fix in a future software update. I would imagine the resources are going into higher priority items at the moment.

 

[345 050]

I find the trains at Paddington do load up from both ends, although most likely down to having entrances at both ends of the train. Also from memory exits at Ealing/Southall*/Hayes are at the country end of the station so regular passengers end up that end of the train for a speedy exit.

(*not sure about Southall as I haven't visited since the new building opened)

It's a big problem with non regular travelers on the Heathrow services. You'll find them at the London end of platform 11 in the first 2 carriages.

 

[Kite159]

It's a big problem with non regular travelers on the Heathrow services. You'll find them at the London end of platform 11 in the first 2 carriages.

Same with most trains out of Paddington and other London terminals, "norms" will join the first available coach they come to, so you can have a near private coach if sitting in the front but the rear is Full.

----

I noticed on the Overground Unit yesterday towards Barking Riverside, it still mentioned at Wanstead Park "Change here for TfL Rail services from Forest Gate station" (or something along those lines), rather than Elizabeth Line. I can understand the delay for Thameslink/Great Northern/Greater Anglia but for a TfL service.

 

[345 050]

Was there any testing today. Service suspended on COS but didn't see any units running at all. Engineering blockade this weekend for COS?

 

[Horizon22]

Same with most trains out of Paddington and other London terminals, "norms" will join the first available coach they come to, so you can have a near private coach if sitting in the front but the rear is Full.

----

I noticed on the Overground Unit yesterday towards Barking Riverside, it still mentioned at Wanstead Park "Change here for TfL Rail services from Forest Gate station" (or something along those lines), rather than Elizabeth Line. I can understand the delay for Thameslink/Great Northern/Greater Anglia but for a TfL service.

Many maps and line diagrams are out of date on other London Underground services too, so don't think its in isolation. "TFL" is very broad brush, ranging from the London Underground, Overground (Arriva) and Elizabeth Line (MTR) for the examples mentioned. Yes they come under the TfL umbrella, but oversight of things like this probably not a priority.

 

[AM9]

It would be more obvious to passengers if they had put duplicate screens every 40-50m along platform so can see how many minutes as they walk along the platform.

Well the low level platforms at Paddington have like on all of the other Lizzie core station have screens above every platform edge door, so about every 8 metres. There will be no shortage of information there.

Slower walkers will take about 4 minutes to walk along and judging time isn’t always easy if not used to taking the train, or your local train is 2car so don’t get same problem.

There aren't many journeys involving two-car trains in the south east and an even smaller proportion of the passengers visiting the city will have travelled on them.