How does the lack of direct train services between large towns in Northern England compare with the South?

[Roger100]

Here around Durham there were numerous lines when the pits were active, but after they closed I guess the railways lost most of their traffic. Lines were ripped up and stations closed. In East Durham the coast line survived, and there's an hourly service to various places but it's not that helpful. Grand Central run a few trains between Sunderland and London, but if you wanted to go from Hartlepool to Durham it's a long trip via Newcastle or sometimes you can get to Darlington with only one change. It all takes ages so it's just as well there is a bus.

Grand Central stop at York so it is possible to get to more southern towns if you have plenty of time. I can get to Durham from my village by bus, which goes all round the villages, but of course no good after 6pm. I can drive to Durham for an early train, pay £15 for the day's parking at the station if there are any spaces left after 6 am. We've never heard of places like Manchester or Liverpool as the rail journey is tortuous, it's probably quicker to walk.

 

[Taunton]

In the standard off peak hour, more trains call at the West Hampstead complex (40) than pass through non stop (32). It is of course true that the longer distance services are the ones that don’t stop.

I guess the majority that stop there are Jubilee Line.

There was a proposal I believe in the 1970s to tie it all together, in the days before OSI ticketing or similar, with an integrated station, needing some realignments to fit the additional platforms in, all to be on the west side of West End Lane, and allowing transfer inside the ticket line. I seem to recall a photo of an architects model of it being in Modern Railways. Unfortunately the intervening land has been sold off and redeveloped.

Regarding that trip, yes I took the Chiltern from Rickmansworth, and walked from Marylebone to Baker Street. Probably could have done it quicker, was just taking the next train out each time.

 

[DM352]

Uckfield/East Grinstead to anywhere else in Sussex or Kent not on those lines is hopeless. Even Uckfield - East Grinstead as a journey is pretty useless compared to the drive time. Sheffield Park Bluebell Railway is really near to me and could be an actually useful railway line to me, sadly not as a preserved railway.

Agree. If they connected the Ardingly gap, it would be a mostly 25mph maximum for a passenger service so would need a track upgrade for a Whitby Grosmont stlyle arrangement.

The issues with East Grinstead and Uckfield as severed railheads is the ongoing strain on building more housing estates which may interfere with existing 2 lane roads (lower speeds, roundabouts, lights, congestion etc) that have a good bus service making rail a better alternative.

 

[Wtloild]

Most journeys in Greater Manchester involve passing through Central Manchester.
There's very little by way of connections between the surrounding towns, either by rail or Metrolink (e.g. none of Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Ashton, Stockport, the Airport, Sale are independently connected to one another).
The major employment centre of Salford Quays (Media City) is only accessible via Central Manchester.
London itself does have Overground providing some orbital connectivity (although appreciate beyond the M25 such connections are largely nonexistent).

 

[plugwash]

Most journeys in Greater Manchester involve passing through Central Manchester.

And manchester has two main stations Picadilly and Victoria, some parts of the conurbation have connections to both but many only have connections to one or the other. Sometimes you can change at Salford Crescent or Bolton instead but often you will have to change twice but often not.

To add insult to injury it seems if either the origin or destination is outside greater manchester you can;t use your ticket to cross manchester by metrolink.

London itself does have Overground providing some orbital connectivity

Yes, the "north london line" of the overground does orbit the west and north of London, but it's connectivity to intersecting lines is piss poor it

* Crosses the GWML without a connection.
* Crosses the WCML and Watford DC line at Willisden Junction, the North London line and Watford DC line have platforms but the WCML line doesn't. So WCML passengers would have to change at Watford Junction and then take a slow train to Willisden junction.
* Crosses Chiltern without a connection.
* Crosses the Midland mainline at West Hampsted, both lines have platforms but they form part of different stations.
* Crosses the East coast mainline without a connection (though it does have a connection to the northern City line).

The poor interchanges and the fact it's really not very far north of central London mean it's really not a very useful option for interchanging between the radials.

 

[D365]

Is there all that much demand for direct trains between say Wellingborough and Huntingdon (or between Bedford and St. Neots)?

When put in the context of a larger East-West route? Definitely.

 

[TUC]

...and then someone increased the Leeds-Huddersfield fast service from 1tph to 4 and Leeds-London from 1tph to 2 meaning that half the time you went via Leeds anyway, with predictable results.

The Huddersfield-Wakefield trains weren't just about Huddersfield passengers though. By serving station such as Mirfield they provided a means getting to London and other destinations for those passengers, outside of the less frequent Grand Central services, without having to drive and pay for parking in Huddersfield. For example, if needing to get to London by 0900, this service enabled a Wakefield connection and London arrival over an hour earlier than Grand Central offers.

 

[yorksrob]

Absolute nightmare if you're trying to get to Gatwick Airport from East Sussex/West Kent.

I do wonder if, in another reality, Three Bridges to Tunbridge Wells had been retained, whether the Reading - Gatwick airports could have been extended to East Grinstead to Tunbridge Wells.

Would have caused a few pathing conflicts later on mind.

 

[Alfie1014]

Colchester to Cambridge, about 45 miles as the crow flies but around two hours by train, other transport options aren’t brilliant either, the quickest road journey is about 1hr 20mins via A120/M11 but that’s about 60 miles due to the detour via Stansted, whereas the shortest route via secondary roads comes in at about 15 mins longer but is at least only 47 miles. The bus (coach) option only 3 services a day with National Express and a change at Stansted Airport is the around 3 hours. So it’s not all hunky dorey down here in the south, where from much of East Anglia the only reasonable connections much of the time are via London.

 

[yorksrob]

The Huddersfield-Wakefield trains weren't just about Huddersfield passengers though. By serving station such as Mirfield they provided a means getting to London and other destinations for those passengers, outside of the less frequent Grand Central services, without having to drive and pay for parking in Huddersfield. For example, if needing to get to London by 0900, this service enabled a Wakefield connection and London arrival over an hour earlier than Grand Central offers.

Also later in the evening, it made it easier to avoid the Friday/Saturday night melee from Leeds.

 

[Taunton]

Yes, the "north london line" of the overground does orbit the west and north of London, but it's connectivity to intersecting lines is piss poor it


The poor interchanges and the fact it's really not very far north of central London mean it's really not a very useful option for interchanging between the radials.

The North London line really is not an orbital connector. From east of Camden Road on it you can actually see the platform ends at St Pancras!

 

[Mikey C]

Even a small number of services on a direct route can make a difference. I googled Doctor Who museum (to find out opening times for the one at Allendale that I'm going to visit in the next week or two), and accidentally found out there is a Doctor Who exhibition in Liverpool. On checking train times I see the Glasgow-Liverpool direct TPE are running again (2tpd each direction, and they also stop at Penrith), one that arrives at 1143 makes a long day trip viable, so that should be my day out for mid-September. A few days in Daventry is my bigger trip for late this month, but I'll be driving there - years since I've driven that far.

Very off topic for this thread, but that Doctor Who exhibition will move to Edinburgh later this year, so you might want to wait

Doctor Who Worlds of Wonder: Science exhibition lands in Edinburgh

Doctor Who Worlds of Wonder: Science exhibition lands in Edinburgh

www.bbcstudios.com

The North London line really is not an orbital connector. From east of Camden Road on it you can actually see the platform ends at St Pancras!

Agreed, it's a Zone 1 avoider, rather than a "London" avoider

It does do a good job of connecting commuter and tube lines though, either directly or with very short out of station interchanges.

The West London line at Shepherds Bush for the Central Line
Willesden Junction for the Bakerloo and Watford DC lines
West Hampstead for the Jubilee Line and Thameslink, an EASY interchange
Camden Road for the Northern Line at Camden Town, a slightly longer OSI
Highbury & Islington for the Victoria Line and Northern City Line
Hackney Central for the Overground/GA Lea Valley lines from Hackney Downs
Stratford for everything.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Huddersfield-Wakefield trains weren't just about Huddersfield passengers though. By serving station such as Mirfield they provided a means getting to London and other destinations for those passengers, outside of the less frequent Grand Central services, without having to drive and pay for parking in Huddersfield. For example, if needing to get to London by 0900, this service enabled a Wakefield connection and London arrival over an hour earlier than Grand Central offers.

If you were going to London but had a car, and you live in or near Mirfield, you'd just drive direct to Wakefield Westgate and park there. Particularly back in the day, when the usual 141 on the Wakefield service didn't fill you with confidence as it squealed and groaned up the Wakefield curve...

In recent years, much of the Huddersfield to Wakefield traffic is schoolkids going to the posh schools in Wakefield, and the slightly older kids going to the sixth-forms in Huddersfield. Many of both do live in or around Mirfield of course.

 

[Howardh]

Up here in the north, it's not so much the towns where connectivity is absent, but the airports. Can't think of a major one down south that doesn't have it's own dedicated rail station (Luton excepted, and even so it's a short bus ride away); here only Manchester has a rail station (not sure about Newcastle) and the others such as Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford, Doncaster all require bus connections. Of course the one remaining airport that has a station...ahem *Teeside*...

In my opinion it's arguably easier to cross the north than it is to cross the south-east, as alluded to you're OK if you want to get in and out of London, but horrible getting cross-country even if lines exist, example Brighton - Portsmouth/Southampton, and even worse eastwards.

 

[RT4038]

Up here in the north, it's not so much the towns where connectivity is absent, but the airports. Can't think of a major one down south that doesn't have it's own dedicated rail station (Luton excepted, and even so it's a short bus ride away); here only Manchester has a rail station (not sure about Newcastle) and the others such as Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford, Doncaster all require bus connections. Of course the one remaining airport that has a station...ahem *Teeside*...

In my opinion it's arguably easier to cross the north than it is to cross the south-east, as alluded to you're OK if you want to get in and out of London, but horrible getting cross-country even if lines exist, example Brighton - Portsmouth/Southampton, and even worse eastwards.

Exeter, Bristol, East Midlands, Newquay.

There should never have been a scheduled passenger service airport built at Doncaster (nor Coventry, now closed). Speculative nonsense.

 

[wilbers]

Up here in the north, it's not so much the towns where connectivity is absent, but the airports. Can't think of a major one down south that doesn't have it's own dedicated rail station (Luton excepted, and even so it's a short bus ride away); here only Manchester has a rail station (not sure about Newcastle) and the others such as Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford, Doncaster all require bus connections. Of course the one remaining airport that has a station...ahem *Teeside*...

In my opinion it's arguably easier to cross the north than it is to cross the south-east, as alluded to you're OK if you want to get in and out of London, but horrible getting cross-country even if lines exist, example Brighton - Portsmouth/Southampton, and even worse eastwards.

Newcastle does, its the terminus on one of the Tyne & Wear metro lines.

 

[AM9]

Up here in the north, it's not so much the towns where connectivity is absent, but the airports. Can't think of a major one down south that doesn't have it's own dedicated rail station (Luton excepted, and even so it's a short bus ride away); here only Manchester has a rail station (not sure about Newcastle) and the others such as Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford, Doncaster all require bus connections. Of course the one remaining airport that has a station...ahem *Teeside*...

Most people do one return visit to an airport about once per year (or longer) unless it is required for work purposes.

 

[plugwash]

ahem *Teeside*...

Blackpool airport also has a station pretty close by, though it doesn't have much in the way of flights.

 

[Doomotron]

I live in Kent, which is one of the worst connected county on the entire Network, in regards to long-distance services. Gatwick Airport is close to where I live yet to get there I would need to take at least three trains, none of which seem timed to connect with each other. Getting to Paris or Marseille on the train from where I live involves less changes than getting to Edinburgh or Exeter, which is absolutely laughable. Really an Ashford to the north Crosscountry service would be really useful, or a 'Thameslink 2' going via the West London Line and going into Kent. At the moment, getting out of Kent is difficult as is getting around it as well. Unfortunately it's always been like that, as the railways here weren't designed very well.

 

[snowball]

There should never have been a scheduled passenger service airport built at Doncaster

The runway was there already.

 

[zwk500]

Getting to Paris or Marseille on the train from where I live involves less changes than getting to Edinburgh or Exeter, which is absolutely laughable.

In defence of this, Deal to Paris is given as 240 miles, while Deal to Edinburgh is 476 miles and Deal to Exeter is 278 miles. Deal to Edinburgh involves 2 train and 1 short walk, from what I can see (High Speed to St Pancras, LNER from King's Cross), Deal to Marseilles would require at least 3 trains and probably a trip on the Paris Metro as well.

 

[RedPostJunc]

Although Westbury is a busy rail hub, two schemes suggested in recent years have not materialised:
extending Paddington - Reading - Bedwyn to Westbury
regular service Swindon - Westbury - Salisbury - Southampton (replacing the Salisbury - Southampton - Romsey service)

 

[Howardh]

Blackpool airport also has a station pretty close by, though it doesn't have much in the way of flights.

Think commercial flights have now gone, and the airport is mainly/wholly helicopters, private flights, training etc. The "departure lounge" appears to have gone. Pity because it was a useful alternative to Manchester, and could getyou to the Isle of Man and even Faro/Ibiza!

 

[A S Leib]

Colchester to Cambridge, about 45 miles as the crow flies but around two hours by train, other transport options aren’t brilliant either, the quickest road journey is about 1hr 20mins via A120/M11 but that’s about 60 miles due to the detour via Stansted, whereas the shortest route via secondary roads comes in at about 15 mins longer but is at least only 47 miles. The bus (coach) option only 3 services a day with National Express and a change at Stansted Airport is the around 3 hours. So it’s not all hunky dorey down here in the south, where from much of East Anglia the only reasonable connections much of the time are via London.

As far as I can tell it's around the same cost and time as the direct coach, but Colchester - Chelmsford - bus to Stansted - train to Cambridge is at least a more frequent option than the National Express or train via Newmarket.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Airport rail links are great for governments to claim they're investing in local infrastructure, but for reducing road congestion they're pretty much useless. Unless the airport is a major hub, and served by lots of trains to exploit economies of scale, it's basically Transit-washing.

 

[Howardh]

I live in Kent, which is one of the worst connected county on the entire Network, in regards to long-distance services. Gatwick Airport is close to where I live yet to get there I would need to take at least three trains, none of which seem timed to connect with each other. Getting to Paris or Marseille on the train from where I live involves less changes than getting to Edinburgh or Exeter, which is absolutely laughable. Really an Ashford to the north Crosscountry service would be really useful, or a 'Thameslink 2' going via the West London Line and going into Kent. At the moment, getting out of Kent is difficult as is getting around it as well. Unfortunately it's always been like that, as the railways here weren't designed very well.

Is Lille airport a serious alternative, thinking connecting via Ashford/Eurostar?

 

[zwk500]

Is Lille airport a serious alternative, thinking connecting via Ashford/Eurostar?

Not for another couple of years, unfortunately (Eurostar have suspended calls for the interim). Best option for an Airport from Deal is to get yourself to London Bridge and then use the Thameslink to Gatwick or Luton. It might sometimes be quicker/easier to go Ashford/Eastbourne if you're going to Gatwick.

 

[Howardh]

Not for another couple of years, unfortunately (Eurostar have suspended calls for the interim). Best option for an Airport from Deal is to get yourself to London Bridge and then use the Thameslink to Gatwick or Luton. It might sometimes be quicker/easier to go Ashford/Eastbourne if you're going to Gatwick.

I take it Ashford's not currently being used as an international gateway?

 

[plugwash]

Think commercial flights have now gone, and the airport is mainly/wholly helicopters, private flights, training etc. The "departure lounge" appears to have gone. Pity because it was a useful alternative to Manchester, and could getyou to the Isle of Man and even Faro/Ibiza!

It seems you may be right according to the Wikipedia article on the airport it closed in 2014 but reopened on a smaller scale in 2015 with flights from Citywings, but it appears that citywings themselves collapsed a few years later.

 

[zwk500]

I take it Ashford's not currently being used as an international gateway?

Correct, Eurostar have mothballed both Ashford and Ebbsfleet until at least 2023, IIRC.