How does the lack of direct train services between large towns in Northern England compare with the South?

[NoOnesFool]

There's no one defintion of 'the South' because it depends what you're using it to compare against, and similarly with 'the North'. Cornwall (and Devon) is often (sometimes with Dorset/Somerset) in the Westcountry or South West rather than South, for instance. Cambs, Herts, Beds and Bucks are usually thought of as 'Southern' but none of them are between Kent and Cornwall.

I would class Cambridgeshire as the midlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would class Cambridgeshire as the midlands.

Most people would see Cambridge itself as South East, though, or possibly East Anglia. It's often less to do with precise location and more to do with how it associates. Generally, places with considerable London commuting are seen by most as the South East - I think BR had more influence than it realised!

I'd not say all of the NSE area was, though, there are some odd outposts, like Kings Lynn clearly isn't in the SE. But probably a line drawn roughly around (looks at map) Ipswich, Cambridge, Bedford, Northampton, Oxford, Salisbury and Bournemouth, say.

 

[zwk500]

I think your "generic" split is that (talking of England alone) the north is north of about Crewe, and the south is south of the Watford Gap, which is not Watford itself but a small Northamptonshire village that also hosts a motorway services of the same name, named I think after a gap between some hills.

Well aware of the generic splits, just pointing out that 'the south' shrinks and grows depending on context. I would generally use a line between the Mersey and Humber rivers to define the North (basically Yorks/Lancs and beyond) and a line between the Severn and the Wash to define 'The South', but Devon, Cornwall and Somerset are definitely South West rather than South to me.

I would class Cambridgeshire as the midlands.

Exactly my point - people disagree readily about these borders. Look at the BBC regions, former European Parliament constituencies and distribution of accents for examples of how difficult it can be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well aware of the generic splits, just pointing out that 'the south' shrinks and grows depending on context. I would generally use a line between the Mersey and Humber rivers to define the North (basically Yorks/Lancs and beyond) and a line between the Severn and the Wash to define 'The South', but Devon, Cornwall and Somerset are definitely South West rather than South to me.

I think really you've got two very distinct places in terms of their economy etc - the South East (the London commuter area, basically) and the South West or Westcountry (places west but not north of that). The latter acts much more like the North with London being far less important and a far more distributed and multicentric economy, but a bit of a pull to Birmingham/Bristol as well.

Similarly, you've probably got the West Midlands (drawn to Brum primarily), East Midlands (to Nottingham, Leicester etc) and East Anglia (to Cambridge and Norwich).

And then the North West (Liverpool/Manchester and the Lakes), Yorkshire (Sheffield/Leeds) and North East (Newcastle, Durham etc).

You can stick some of them together (e.g. in some contexts "the North" makes a bit of sense, there's a lot more commonality of the economy than "the South") but in terms of how people and the economy behave those are probably the de-facto splits.

 

[JamesT]

I understand the issues about traffic flows - but sometimes it seems that it is the franchises and where they operate that is an issue. i live in Coventry so I'll restrict comments to there. Apart from Avanti - which provides good connectivity when it's not cancelled, the other providers are XC and WMT.
Going north - XC now provides an hourly service to Manchester. Not bad. But not too long ago some cross country trains reversed at New St and the went to Derby,Sheffield Leeds and beyond instead on Manchester. Which meant that much of the North East could be reached on just 1 (usually very busy) train. And other large towns like Hull,Bradford with just one change. So why do XC only go to Manchester these days? And could there be an advantage of running them alternately to Manchester/Liverpool.? Is it the franchise system that has restricted more flexible flows?
And would such flexibility add to the costs? Just a different use of existing resources.
I know that good connections exist at New Street - requiring a change of trains. But for many people this is just one more problem which means they might decide against the train.

I believe that changed for Covid, XC chopped half of their routes so they could run the remaining services with doubled-up Voyagers.
There is an expectation that at some point they will revert to their pre-Covid timetable, but I suspect with the current staffing issues they're probably not in a position to do so yet.

 

[MikeWM]

I would class Cambridgeshire as the midlands.

I'm not aware of anyone living here that does, though, certainly not on the east side (can't really speak for Peterborough).

We're either East Anglia, or West Anglia, or 'East of England', depending on how granular the area being described is.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I'm not aware of anyone living here that does, though, certainly not on the east side (can't really speak for Peterborough).

We're either East Anglia, or West Anglia, or 'East of England', depending on how granular the area being described is.

I suppose someone living in Birmingham or even Manchester could describe themselves as living in the West of England by that logic.

 

[Magdalia]

I'm not aware of anyone living here that does, though, certainly not on the east side (can't really speak for Peterborough).

We're either East Anglia, or West Anglia, or 'East of England', depending on how granular the area being described is.

Cambridge is definitely East Anglia.
West Anglia is a railway invention, it has no meaning outside the railway context.
For statistical purposes Cambridge is part of the East of England, which comprises Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire.

Cambridge is not even anywhere near the Midlands!

 

[bramling]

Cambridge is definitely East Anglia.
West Anglia is a railway invention, it has no meaning outside the railway context.
For statistical purposes Cambridge is part of the East of England, which comprises Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire.

Cambridge is not even anywhere near the Midlands!

To show how subjective all this is, Watford is also in Hertfordshire, yet I’m not sure most people would see Watford as being in the “east of England”.

The only real trend that I can deduce is that pretty much *everyone* in this country regards their area as hard done by for one reason or another!

 

[MikeWM]

Cambridge is definitely East Anglia.
West Anglia is a railway invention, it has no meaning outside the railway context.
For statistical purposes Cambridge is part of the East of England, which comprises Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire.

I prefer 'East of England' or 'West Anglia', even if invented Back when I was less familiar with the area and living 'up North', East Anglia to me was just Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex.

 

[bramling]

I prefer 'East of England' or 'West Anglia', even if invented Back when I was less familiar with the area and living 'up North', East Anglia to me was just Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex.

I’ve said this numerous times, however the creation of the Mayor of London role really hasn’t helped, as it’s driven a wedge between London and the wider south-east, one which the current mayor seems to wish to push further.

Of course, we know that part of the rationale for creating the mayoralty was because Blair expected it to be a way of increasing New Labour’s political influence. This didn’t work initially thanks to Livingstone, and to a lesser extent Johnson, but in the long-term the strategy seems to have worked. The Home Counties, especially north of London, are essentially a no man’s land.

 

[ess]

Huddersfield to wakefield no direct service.
Huddersfield to Halifax then bradford 2 hourly.
How does that compare with services between similar sized towns down south?

When did Huddersfield to Wakefield direct stop?

 

[MikeWM]

I’ve said this numerous times, however the creation of the Mayor of London role really hasn’t helped, as it’s driven a wedge between London and the wider south-east, one which the current mayor seems to wish to push further.

Of course, we know that part of the rationale for creating the mayoralty was because Blair expected it to be a way of increasing New Labour’s political influence. This didn’t work initially thanks to Livingstone, and to a lesser extent Johnson, but in the long-term the strategy seems to have worked. The Home Counties, especially north of London, are essentially a no man’s land.

We now have a mayor of 'Cambridge and Peterborough' for no apparent reason, I'm not sure anyone wanted one, Cambridge and Peterborough have nothing whatever in common apart from being at opposite ends of the county, and the position seems to be a bit of a joke. The previous mayor had all sorts of crazy transport plans that cost lots of money on consultations and went nowhere. The current mayor hasn't done anything at all since being elected, as far as I can tell. (I'm not sure which is better (!) but not having one at all seems a better plan).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I prefer 'East of England' or 'West Anglia', even if invented Back when I was less familiar with the area and living 'up North', East Anglia to me was just Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex.

But pretty much nobody would say Watford was anywhere other than the South East, other than those few who think the South East is basically just the area covered by the Southeastern TOC (of which there are a few). It's only just outside London, indeed logic would probably put it inside. Indeed, it's even the (wrongly used*) definition of the SE for some!

I'd say the actual Counties are less relevant to be honest. "Traditional" Yorkshire (which is big enough to be a region in its own right) really fits firmly in one region. Traditional Lancashire and Cumberland/Westmorland are clearly North West. But Cheshire for instance is arguably split between North West and the Midlands. (The main towns are all probably North West, but there is a fair bit of ruralness below Crewe towards Shropshire which probably isn't). And some of Northants is clearly Midlands and some clearly South East albeit only just.

* "North of Watford" refers to the Watford Gap as noted above, not the town of Watford.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

One area of the UK I have spent some time in is Essex and it strikes me how London centric the rail transport is there. Of course it makes sense since there are many London commuters living there. But for example if one wanted to travel say from Basildon to Chelmsford that would require a trip into London (unless one goes Upminster - Romford) hampered further by Fenchurch St. being the only terminal station in London not on the Tube. Admittedly it is only a short walk to Tower Hill but I imagine that would be an issue for anyone mobility impaired.

 

[Irascible]

There's no one defintion of 'the South' because it depends what you're using it to compare against, and similarly with 'the North'. Cornwall (and Devon) is often (sometimes with Dorset/Somerset) in the Westcountry or South West rather than South, for instance. Cambs, Herts, Beds and Bucks are usually thought of as 'Southern' but none of them are between Kent and Cornwall.

South-West - Devon & Cornwall ( if you live in either ), add Dorset & Somerset if you don't. The official definition is rubbish - what on earth has anyone the other side of Bristol got to do with someone in Cornwall? it's not like there's even much going on between east Devon & the neighbouring bits of Dorset. ITV franchise areas are a better way to chop the country up. Devon/Cornwall/Somerset have a lot more in common with the North than the South-East.

Plymouth to Exeter averages about 45mph, I think. Exeter to Taunton/Bristol is a bit faster, but if you want to go Plymouth to Bournemouth, good luck...

 

[billio]

Take Accrington to Bury, once connected by a railway, until Beeching, on a route from Skipton, Colne, Burnley and through to Manchester.
Distance by road 14 miles, at 16:45 taking about 30 minutes by car, but in the rush hour probably 45 minutes.
Time by train and Metrolink (25 minutes + 5 transfer) probably about 1 hour and 30 minutes, about £16.00, but at times 30 minutes slower and more expensive tickets (because the slower routes are longer).
Once upon a time (early 60's) a train ran from Accrington to Bury in 20 minutes including 3 intermediate stops.
Accrington and Bury are quite substantial towns and there are significant settlements between the two towns: Haslingden, Ramsbottom.

 

[A S Leib]

Let's do that. 40 years ago there was an hourly slow train St Pancras alternately to Derby or Nottingham.

The Nottingham trains called Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester.
The Derby trains called St Albans, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Leicester.

The current timetable benefits people going to and from London, and Corby has obviously gained, but the downside has been a huge loss in direct services between intermediate stations, compared with 40 years ago. For example, Luton to Kettering and Bedford to Leicester now require a change of train, and Luton to Leicester requires two changes. For a lot of people that's not decent regional connectivity, it is a service that shouts out that it is only interested in providing journeys to and from London.

When did all St. Pancras trains apart from a few early morning / late night ones begin to go all the way to Sheffield instead of terminating at Derby?

I would class Cambridgeshire as the midlands.

I'd say Cambridge is south(east), Ely is East Anglia and Peterborough's in the Midlands but being southeasternified.

We now have a mayor of 'Cambridge and Peterborough' for no apparent reason, I'm not sure anyone wanted one, Cambridge and Peterborough have nothing whatever in common apart from being at opposite ends of the county, and the position seems to be a bit of a joke. The previous mayor had all sorts of crazy transport plans that cost lots of money on consultations and went nowhere. The current mayor hasn't done anything at all since being elected, as far as I can tell. (I'm not sure which is better (!) but not having one at all seems a better plan).

Mayor of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough is the official title, which makes slightly more sense but also makes it seem as if they're unsure whether or not Peterborough's in Cambridgeshire - there isn't a position called 'Mayor of Bolton, Bury... and Wigan'. The Cambridgeshire and Peterborough mayor can't establish mayoral development corporations (according to the IfG all of the other metro mayors can, although only London's, Manchester's and Tees Valley's have done so so far) and there's a few other cases of some devolved powers only being given to some, like the West of England not being able to raise council tax precepts.

(This seems to have diverted slightly off-topic from the original post.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When did Huddersfield to Wakefield direct stop?

During the Covid period, though I can't recall the exact time it was pulled. During 2021 I think, as it wasn't stopped at the start of the lockdowns. Strictly speaking it hasn't been culled entirely, a few journeys a day run as buses during the peaks.

 

[Taunton]

Well aware of the generic splits, just pointing out that 'the south' shrinks and grows depending on context. I would generally use a line between the Mersey and Humber rivers to define the North (basically Yorks/Lancs and beyond) and a line between the Severn and the Wash to define 'The South', but Devon, Cornwall and Somerset are definitely South West rather than South to me.

Us lot definitely see the South West as separate to the "South". Going to London is an event (and incidentally, Birmingham has zero connection with the area). Bristol is the major centre, and in turn it's notable how many commercial businesses in both Bristol and Cardiff have offices and work in the opposite city. Gloucester-Swindon-Salisbury-Bournemouth is regarded as the boundary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Us lot definitely see the South West as separate to the "South". Going to London is an event (and incidentally, Birmingham has zero connection with the area). Bristol is the major centre, and in turn it's notable how many commercial businesses in both Bristol and Cardiff have offices and work in the opposite city. Gloucester-Swindon-Salisbury-Bournemouth is regarded as the boundary.

That's a good way of defining the South East - places where going to London is for most people routine and not an "event".

 

[30907]

I’m not well up on my railway history of the south east midlands, but was there ever a service from Peterborough to Corby? Or Peterborough to Kettering? etc. Etc.

No. the area was crossed by several routes but north and south of Kettering:
Rugby-M Harborough-Peterborough E (the least unimportant) and Northampton-Wellingborough-Peterborough E (following the Nene).

(PS 40 years ago I used the Corby-Peterborough Railink coach, which was almost empty mid-morning.)

 

[matacaster]

When did Huddersfield to Wakefield direct stop?

Pandemic, not sure of date. Never returned.

 

[YorksLad12]

During the Covid period, though I can't recall the exact time it was pulled. During 2021 I think, as it wasn't stopped at the start of the lockdowns. Strictly speaking it hasn't been culled entirely, a few journeys a day run as buses during the peaks.

There's a definite bias against Wakefield and the Five Towns area. Any sort of trouble, and Pontefract Line services seemed to be the first to get pulled. But Huddersfield-Wakefield is useful, in that it's considerably faster than the service buses.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's a definite bias against Wakefield and the Five Towns area. Any sort of trouble, and Pontefract Line services seemed to be the first to get pulled. But Huddersfield-Wakefield is useful, in that it's considerably faster than the service buses.

To be honest there's a bit of a pro-Leeds bias with West Yorkshire PTE, and has been for decades. Back in the Northern Spirit/Arriva Trains Northern driver shortage days the first routes to be culled were the ones that didn't serve Leeds: particularly the Wakefield to Knottingley. The Huddersfield to Wakefield only escaped because at the time it was run by First North Western.

I don't know if other PTE areas have the same issue, most of them aren't as polycentric as West Yorkshire so it's probably less of an option. For example in Greater Manchester almost everything goes into Piccadilly or Victoria. The only service that doesn't is the Denton flyer, which has suffered worse than even the Pontecarlo and Casvegas services.

 

[RT4038]

To be honest there's a bit of a pro-Leeds bias with West Yorkshire PTE, and has been for decades. Back in the Northern Spirit/Arriva Trains Northern driver shortage days the first routes to be culled were the ones that didn't serve Leeds: particularly the Wakefield to Knottingley. The Huddersfield to Wakefield only escaped because at the time it was run by First North Western.

I don't know if other PTE areas have the same issue, most of them aren't as polycentric as West Yorkshire so it's probably less of an option. For example in Greater Manchester almost everything goes into Piccadilly or Victoria. The only service that doesn't is the Denton flyer, which has suffered worse than even the Pontecarlo and Casvegas services.

To be fair, I would guess that the peripheral routes, not serving Leeds, would be those carrying the fewest passengers?

 

[ar10642]

That's a good way of defining the South East - places where going to London is for most people routine and not an "event".

Places like Bexhill are far enough away to feel like an event, 2 hours by train. London feels like a long way from those coastal towns.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To be fair, I would guess that the peripheral routes, not serving Leeds, would be those carrying the fewest passengers?

Quite possibly... though that makes the same mistake as the Beeching Report of neglecting the "network effect". For example if you live in Featherstone and your train to Wakefield is cut, then you won't connect onto the service to Leeds either.

 

[30907]

Quite possibly... though that makes the same mistake as the Beeching Report of neglecting the "network effect". For example if you live in Featherstone and your train to Wakefield is cut, then you won't connect onto the service to Leeds either.

Of course. But the Leeds train would have had plenty of other passengers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Of course. But the Leeds train would have had plenty of other passengers.

Which is why it isn't the first choice to be cut- however cutting the more lightly-used services still has a negative impact.
Our hypothetical Featherstone resident won't be on the Leeds train because they'll just drive all the way into Leeds, so the Leeds train still carries fewer people, meaning less farebox revenue in total and more congestion on the M621.