How does the lack of direct train services between large towns in Northern England compare with the South?

[Mikey C]

Not for another couple of years, unfortunately (Eurostar have suspended calls for the interim). Best option for an Airport from Deal is to get yourself to London Bridge and then use the Thameslink to Gatwick or Luton. It might sometimes be quicker/easier to go Ashford/Eastbourne if you're going to Gatwick.

HS1 to St Pancras for the Thameslink, especially for Luton.

 

[NoRoute]

But the real problem here (and on the WCML - nothing much between Watford and Coventry) and even more on the ECML (nothing between Hitchen and Peterborough) is that in 1960 you had a string of medium-sized towns (eg Luton, Bedford, Wellinboro, Kettering) and small towns (eg Mkt Harboro) which justified and needed connections to London, but then what?

All of those connections you mention connect towns, none of which had universities or major attractions except Oxford and Cambridge. They were mostly short branch lines with some sort of low commuter flows (eg Northampton - Bedford) or longer country routes with even vaguer traffic potential. How many people needed to travel between Kettering and Huntingdon regularly, either then or even now? And the service, just three trains each way per day, reflected this.

Quite, but since the 1960s this same area has seen a huge amount of growth and development, New Towns at Milton Keynes population ~270,000, Northampton was made a New Town and more than doubled in size, to population ~230,000 today, Peterborough was made a New Town now ~205,000. On a smaller scale, Corby was made a new town, growing from ~20,000 to ~60,000 today.

Yet the rail network, in terms of the connectivity, has barely improved since the 1960s, if anything it got worse with the closure of the Market Harborough to Northampton line. You've got Leicester and Nottingham straight up the M1, but there's no direct trains from Northampton and MK, and the indirect route means journey times are a joke. Between Peterborough and Northampton there's Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby all effectively stranded on the MML and cut-off from the major towns at each end.

In terms of supporting regional transport, people working and commuting between regional towns and cities, the rail network in this area is not fit for purpose.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yet the rail network, in terms of the connectivity, has barely improved since the 1960s, if anything it got worse with the closure of the Market Harborough to Northampton line.

I’d argue that the reopening of Kettering - Corby is definitely a significant improvement, as is the vast improvement in frequencies on almost all the lines in the area.

 

[alistairlees]

Grand Central stop at York so it is possible to get to more southern towns if you have plenty of time. I can get to Durham from my village by bus, which goes all round the villages, but of course no good after 6pm. I can drive to Durham for an early train, pay £15 for the day's parking at the station if there are any spaces left after 6 am. We've never heard of places like Manchester or Liverpool as the rail journey is tortuous, it's probably quicker to walk.

I don't follow this. There are 16 direct trains from Durham to Liverpool, all calling at Manchester, tomorrow between 04.53 and 20.18. You said you can get to Durhsm by bus or drive. This sounds like a very good service to me.

 

[NoRoute]

I’d argue that the reopening of Kettering - Corby is definitely a significant improvement, as is the vast improvement in frequencies on almost all the lines in the area.

Adding one town back onto the rail network by building a station is hardly a significant improvement in the context of the huge urban development and population growth in that region over many decades. There's still no regional connectivity, nothing to improve regional transport, the improvements are all focused on the London commuter services.

 

[Doomotron]

Deal to Marseilles would require at least 3 trains and probably a trip on the Paris Metro as well.

Nope. One to St Pancras, and a second down to Marseilles when the service is running. I am not certain if Marseilles services stopped at Ebbsfleet or Ashford pre-COVID, but if they did that would be even faster.

Is Lille airport a serious alternative, thinking connecting via Ashford/Eurostar?

Well, I'd certainly more likely to get a plane there than Heathrow, so it's an option. The problem with Gatwick is less the amount of trains as it can be done with a single change at St Pancras, but the distance and the cost. Going into London is not cheap and going on HS1 is even less cheap, and considering Gatwick is directly west of my house and the railway line is almost entirely direct, I am not sure why I need to go up to London to get there. Right now I need to go to Ashford, then Ashford to Tonbridge, then Tonbridge to Redhill, and finally Redhill to Gatwick. Three trains on one route is hard to justify. Ideally there'd be a service that goes down the Brighton Main Line to Redhill and then turns left and heads as far east as possible. That way it would only be one change at Redhill, which would make the airport more accessible.

 

[Bald Rick]

Adding one town back onto the rail network by building a station is hardly a significant improvement in the context of the huge urban development and population growth in that region over many decades. There's still no regional connectivity, nothing to improve regional transport, the improvements are all focused on the London commuter services.

surely Bedford - Wellingborough - Kettering - Corby half hourly is decent regional connectivity?

as is Kettering - Market Harboro - Leicester - Nottingham every half hour?

Compare to the timetable 40 years ago.

 

[NoRoute]

surely Bedford - Wellingborough - Kettering - Corby half hourly is decent regional connectivity?

as is Kettering - Market Harboro - Leicester - Nottingham every half hour?

Compare to the timetable 40 years ago.

Connectivity isn't just the frequency of service on a single route, but whether it is possible to get to surrounding towns and cities. What's the service from Wellingborough or Kettering to Northampton like? There isn't one. How about Corby to Peterborough? Poor. And then in the wider region, how do you get North-South between Mk and Northampton, upto Leicester and Nottingham? No direct route, journey times pretty awful. Or over to Peterborough? Same.

In practice, there's only one satisfactory option and that's to jump in the car and drive.

 

[bramling]

I’d argue that the reopening of Kettering - Corby is definitely a significant improvement, as is the vast improvement in frequencies on almost all the lines in the area.

That’s all good if you happen to want to travel on the north/south/London axis. Doesn’t mean a thing if you want to go east/west. Try Corby to Peterborough, for example…

Just like the oft-quoted Hitchin to St Albans journey round here, rail is completely useless unless you have no other choice or *really* like travelling by train.

 

[Bald Rick]

Try Corby to Peterborough, for example…

X4, hourly…

 

[driverd]

So the path was allocated to the Knottingley-Kirkgate service, to extend it to Leeds from Westgate.

Which makes sense as the Knottingley to Wakefield service was rather useless. There are still late evening examples which terminate at Westgate, where the timetabled services are based around EMR HSTs, which no longer run. This really needs looking at.

Huddersfield-Kirkgate was sensibly extended to Castleford, giving Normaton an extra service per hour (but unsensibly timed 7 minutes away from the other service). That really does need to come back as there's no comparably fast bus route between Huddersfield and Wakefield. But the DfT don't want to pay Northern to run it, even if the crew and units were available.

Aside from the presumption that there isn't the crew or units, I entirely agree. This service could come back tomorrow if desired.

As for Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield - I caught it one Friday afternoon, years ago, and was spoilt for seating choice. It's faster than the bus but takes a winding route, and has to be flighted between existing Calder Valley and Huddersfield line services. I don't know what the new Mass Transit plans are like but they might offer a better solution, if they take people where they want to go rather than stopping out of town.

Its rather pointless making a timetable centric arguement when the paths still exist. The crew and units are available. The only thing lacking is the will.

 

[bramling]

X4, hourly…

You’ll have to explain what that is…

 

[Bald Rick]

You’ll have to explain what that is…

It’s like a train, but much cheaper to operate.

 

[bramling]

It’s like a train, but much cheaper to operate.

And which most of the population don’t wish to use!

 

[Bald Rick]

And which most of the population don’t wish to use!

Albeit substantially more of the population use them than use mainline trains.

 

[Magdalia]

surely Bedford - Wellingborough - Kettering - Corby half hourly is decent regional connectivity?

as is Kettering - Market Harboro - Leicester - Nottingham every half hour?

Compare to the timetable 40 years ago.

Let's do that. 40 years ago there was an hourly slow train St Pancras alternately to Derby or Nottingham.

The Nottingham trains called Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester.
The Derby trains called St Albans, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Leicester.

The current timetable benefits people going to and from London, and Corby has obviously gained, but the downside has been a huge loss in direct services between intermediate stations, compared with 40 years ago. For example, Luton to Kettering and Bedford to Leicester now require a change of train, and Luton to Leicester requires two changes. For a lot of people that's not decent regional connectivity, it is a service that shouts out that it is only interested in providing journeys to and from London.

 

[dk1]

Albeit substantially more of the population use them than use mainline trains.

Only because they go to substantially more of the country than rail & also most are for very short journeys.

 

[Bald Rick]

but the downside has been a huge loss in direct services between intermediate stations,

I wouldn’t term it huge, or even moderate, and that is certainly not borne out by the data (which I accept is not public).

Only because they go to substantially more of the country than rail & also most are for very short journeys.

acknowledged, but if most of the population don’t want to use them, then even more don’t want to use the train!

Look, my point is that the railway doesn’t, shouldn’t, and indeed can’t serve every market.

Railways are very, very expensive to build and operate. They need big flows to be justified. Most local connections don‘t have the volume for a railway, and whilst some of these routes closed, many more never existed. I’m not well up on my railway history of the south east midlands, but was there ever a service from Peterborough to Corby? Or Peterborough to Kettering? etc. Etc.

 

[Taunton]

Most people do one return visit to an airport about once per year (or longer) unless it is required for work purposes.

Fiction. If that was the case airlines would go out of business.

For a lot of people that's not decent regional connectivity, it is a service that shouts out that it is only interested in providing journeys to and from London.

A worse example is the loss of most Watford Junction calls by WCML expresses. Myself (and many others) used this extensively to a range of places, Liverpool, Birmingham, etc. Right at the centre of one of the wealthiest and commercially developed parts of the country, it was just let go. A while ago I had to get from Buckinghamshire to Carlisle (a business destination where rail really scores because of the distance and lack of air service), it was easy to drive to Watford, then the most effective was to travel to Euston, and come back through nonstop. My 1970s timetable shows an equivalent train stopped at Watford Junction, and overall was more than an hour quicker.

 

[miklcct]

OK, yes I would agree about the traffic pollution but (hopefully) with increasing restrictions on allowable ICV emissions in the GLA area and the transition to EVs, that should progressively improve. I think an ideal opportunity was missed to provide an off-road link direct between the LO & TL stations but that route has been 'developed'. WHP is rapidly becoming an essential interchange location in the inner suburbs which in part is driving both personal safety (as in numbers) and likely to encourage further streamlining of the OSI. With 4tph fast and 4tph slow each way throughout the day on Thameslink, 8 tph each way on LO and 24tph each way on the Jubilee, the three lines are well matched to handle a large interchange flow.

The gatelines at West Hampstead and West Hampstead Thameslink frequently reject valid tickets. It's definitely a hassle to change there.

Most people do one return visit to an airport about once per year (or longer) unless it is required for work purposes.

Fiction. If that was the case airlines would go out of business.

Isn't it common to fly for leisure every few months?

 

[Bald Rick]

Fiction. If that was the case airlines would go out of business.

on average, though, it’s the right order of magnitude.

in 2019 there were just short of 300 million people through U.K. airport terminals, 41m of which were domestic passengers that count twice for each single trip. Assuming they are all return journeys, (at a guess, at least 95% will be), that’s 140m passengers (130m international, 10m domestic return journeys).

Of course not all of these 130m international passengers are resident here, many are visiting our shores. If we say that one third of international passengers are ‘foreigners’ flying in, and two thirds are UK people flying out, that would mean around 90m return trips a year by U.K. residents. From a population 67m, that is in the region of one trip each a year plus more for those flying for work purposes.

 

[AM9]

on average, though, it’s the right order of magnitude.

in 2019 there were just short of 300 million people through U.K. airport terminals, 41m of which were domestic passengers that count twice for each single trip. Assuming they are all return journeys, (at a guess, at least 95% will be), that’s 140m passengers (130m international, 10m domestic return journeys).

Of course not all of these 130m international passengers are resident here, many are visiting our shores. If we say that one third of international passengers are ‘foreigners’ flying in, and two thirds are UK people flying out, that would mean around 90m return trips a year by U.K. residents. From a population 67m, that is in the region of one trip each a year plus more for those flying for work purposes.

That's what I believe. This Full Fact webpage gives some details take from more 'normal' years than the last three.
Interestingly, about 52% of the population hadn't flown at all, and over 70% of all flights were made by 15% of flyers.
In the context of those considered to be 'frequent flyers', many will be flying in connection with their work, and it is unlikely that the pattern would be perpetuated if travelling to the airport was particularly difficult, - either the individual would move to a more location that was more accessible to/from the airport, or they would change their job.

 

[pinkmarie80]

Think commercial flights have now gone, and the airport is mainly/wholly helicopters, private flights, training etc. The "departure lounge" appears to have gone. Pity because it was a useful alternative to Manchester, and could getyou to the Isle of Man and even Faro/Ibiza!

There’s talk of them reintroducing the Isle of Man flights though- I read about it the other day.

Also- MK to Leicester and vice versa is one of the worst journeys I have ever had the misfortune to make. I used to spend a fair bit of time in MK as I studied with the Open University and was involved with a fair few volunteering activities/conferences with them. I cannot recall a single one of those journeys that were not awful for some reason or another. It’s incredibly convoluted, especially given that I’m disabled and when I went to conference there was luggage.
Another awfully convoluted journey is Leicester to Coventry- along the same vein as MK but just a bit shorter. Equally nightmarish though!

 

[AndyHudds]

Route 503 bus every 15 minutes. That's station to station -'ish

As others have said, it's the same even in the leafy south-east, but the fares are much higher:
Huddersfield to Halifax, 10 miles, £5.80 anytime return, - 1 direct and two indirect services per 2 hours
St Albans to Watford Junction: 6.4 miles, £8.60 anytime return, - i direct service every 40 minutes of every hour. (no trains today)
Is that what you want from 'levelling up'?


Isn't Northern currently DOR?, i.e the government?

You’ve obviously never caught the 503, it was every 10 minutes, they cut it back to every 15, its constantly late, services cancelled with alarming regularity especially at rush hour when they're needed, the journey times are ridiculously slow for the closeness geographically between the 2 towns, especially at rush hour. There was a train at 16.50pm which was standing room only which has totally disappeared off the timetable forcing people on to the 503. Believe me as a regular traveller between the 2 towns public transport is pretty dire.

 

[AM9]

You’ve obviously never caught the 503, it was every 10 minutes, they cut it back to every 15, its constantly late, services cancelled with alarming regularity especially at rush hour when they're needed, the journey times are ridiculously slow for the closeness geographically between the 2 towns, especially at rush hour. There was a train at 16.50pm which was standing room only which has totally disappeared off the timetable forcing people on to the 503. Believe me as a regular traveller between the 2 towns public transport is pretty dire.

Not unlike the E-W routes here in Hertfordshire. The 300/301/302 route is the primary link between Hemel Hempstead and Stevenage. Despite being split into shorter segments to improve reliability, it can still being extremely unreliable owing to traffic congestion in the towns en route. The route also serves the main hospitals in the county, which can make appointments even more difficult for some.
Not quite the privileged south that some in the north like to portray, and there's even less chance of levelling up around here.

 

[Magdalia]

This Full Fact webpage gives some details take from more 'normal' years than the last three.
Interestingly, about 52% of the population hadn't flown at all

That's a very useful statistic, thanks for digging it out.

over 70% of all flights were made by 15% of flyers

One group that you don't mention here are migrants, both inward and outward, and their families. People who have family members in other countries are much more likely to fly a lot than people who don't.

And are there comparable statistics for train travel?

 

[davidknibb]

I understand the issues about traffic flows - but sometimes it seems that it is the franchises and where they operate that is an issue. i live in Coventry so I'll restrict comments to there. Apart from Avanti - which provides good connectivity when it's not cancelled, the other providers are XC and WMT.
Going north - XC now provides an hourly service to Manchester. Not bad. But not too long ago some cross country trains reversed at New St and the went to Derby,Sheffield Leeds and beyond instead on Manchester. Which meant that much of the North East could be reached on just 1 (usually very busy) train. And other large towns like Hull,Bradford with just one change. So why do XC only go to Manchester these days? And could there be an advantage of running them alternately to Manchester/Liverpool.? Is it the franchise system that has restricted more flexible flows?
And would such flexibility add to the costs? Just a different use of existing resources.
I know that good connections exist at New Street - requiring a change of trains. But for many people this is just one more problem which means they might decide against the train.

 

[NoOnesFool]

The south is a large area, spanning from Kent to Cornwall (which have no direct service).

 

[zwk500]

The south is a large area, spanning from Kent to Cornwall (which have no direct service).

There's no one defintion of 'the South' because it depends what you're using it to compare against, and similarly with 'the North'. Cornwall (and Devon) is often (sometimes with Dorset/Somerset) in the Westcountry or South West rather than South, for instance. Cambs, Herts, Beds and Bucks are usually thought of as 'Southern' but none of them are between Kent and Cornwall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no one defintion of 'the South' because it depends what you're using it to compare against, and similarly with 'the North'. Cornwall (and Devon) is often (sometimes with Dorset/Somerset) in the Westcountry or South West rather than South, for instance. Cambs, Herts, Beds and Bucks are usually thought of as 'Southern' but none of them are between Kent and Cornwall.

I think your "generic" split is that (talking of England alone) the north is north of about Crewe, and the south is south of the Watford Gap, which is not Watford itself but a small Northamptonshire village that also hosts a motorway services of the same name, named I think after a gap between some hills.

The Westcountry is thus the South but is more thought of as the Westcountry than the South by most people. I'm not quite sure where you'd put the boundary for that - the end of NSEland at Weymouth maybe? Gloucester is south of Milton Keynes, and while most people from MK would consider it in the South East (just), though it's a matter for a bit of debate, I don't think anyone would say Gloucester was in the South as such.