Avanti West Coast cancellations

[43066]

Nobody argued it should be automatic.

If you look at how many guards become drivers compared to nurses becoming doctors, perhaps you can see the problem?

Promotion doesn’t tend to be automatic in most roles. Guard to driver isn’t and never has been a line of promotion, it’s moving from one job to another, albeit within the same industry. Guard to guard manager would be a promotion.

As for nursing, I don’t really see a problem. Nurses can be promoted to more senior clinical and management roles, can they not? If you’re a nurse and you want to become a doctor, you’ll just need to go and study medicine.

I must admit I’m unsure why you keep bringing up nursing on a railway forum!

 

[jayah]

Promotion doesn’t tend to be automatic in most roles. Guard to driver isn’t and never has been a line of promotion, it’s moving from one job to another, albeit within the same industry. Guard to guard manager would be a promotion.

As for nursing, I don’t really see a problem. Nurses can be promoted to more senior clinical and management roles, can they not? If you’re a nurse and you want to become a doctor, you’ll just need to go and study medicine.

I must admit I’m unsure why you keep bringing up nursing on a railway forum!

To reiterate, I have not said progression is automatic.

It creates a motivational career structure, and in the context of the post I was replying to, the relevance is obvious.

If guards who wanted to be drivers had to drop out, leave employment and take on debt to study and new drivers had to fund their own training and qualifications it would look a lot more like the airlines with the driving option route closed to those of limited means.

 

[greeny11]

Numerous cancellations at Euston this morning as someone has been hit by a train. One of the southbound Wolverhampton services has been terminated at Milton Keynes as well.

 

[43066]

It creates a motivational career structure, and in the context of the post I was replying to, the relevance is obvious.

Guards can be promoted to management roles if they wish, or indeed apply for driving/signalling roles. However the “career structure” is different for each.

If guards who wanted to be drivers had to drop out, leave employment and take on debt to study and new drivers had to fund their own training and qualifications it would look a lot more like the airlines with the driving option route closed to those of limited means.

Perhaps, but then it would be the same if a guard wanted to become a railway civil engineer or similar.

 

[LAX54]

The RMT are a wealthy union, partly as a result of their extensive investment portfolio. They have done very well playing the capitalist markets!

and as for paying staff when not at work for strike days:

Members employed as defined in Rule 2, Clause 1, when unemployed in consequence of taking part in any dispute or movement coming within the provisions of these Rules shall, at the discretion of the National Executive Committee, receive strike benefit paid from the General Fund, being an allowance of £1.00 per weekday with a maximum of five days’ payment per week.
The last strike I was involved in was in 1989, worked out at 3 days a week sometimes, so it was £3, I do not know anyone who actually got it, you had to go to a specific location in order to get it, parking the car would have cost more than the £1 a day 'benefit' !

 

[LowLevel]

Guards can be promoted to management roles if they wish, or indeed apply for driving/signalling roles. However the “career structure” is different for each.



Perhaps, but then it would be the same if a guard wanted to become a railway civil engineer or similar.

Certainly I'd not expect to pay for the privilege of moving from the rear cab to the front one if I chose to do so - if I can pass the tests and interviews after all the nonsense I've dealt with as a tail gunner that should enough for anyone - there's been occasions over the years where the guards and drivers lines of promotion have been temporarily or permanently merged too.

 

[43066]

Certainly I'd not expect to pay for the privilege of moving from the rear cab to the front one if I chose to do so - if I can pass the tests and interviews after all the nonsense I've dealt with as a tail gunner that should enough for anyone - there's been occasions over the years where the guards and drivers lines of promotion have been temporarily or permanently merged too.

Absolutely true that the experience for those who want to make the move is highly relevant, and it’s a well trodden path. I just disagree with the implication that as a driver I’m somehow “senior” to a guard - I’m absolutely not - we just do different jobs.

Would you ever considered switching? You sound far too normal and well adjusted to be a driver .

 

[LAX54]

Absolutely true that the experience for those who want to make the move is highly relevant, and it’s a well trodden path. I just disagree with the implication that as a driver I’m somehow “senior” to a guard - I’m absolutely not - we just do different jobs.

Would you ever considered switching? You sound far too normal and well adjusted to be a driver .

Everyone who works on the Railway be they TOC/FOC/NR are all a 'team', no one person is better than the other, without one, the other can't work.

 

[LowLevel]

Absolutely true that the experience for those who want to make the move is highly relevant, and it’s a well trodden path. I just disagree with the implication that as a driver I’m somehow “senior” to a guard - I’m absolutely not - we just do different jobs.

Would you ever considered switching? You sound far too normal and well adjusted to be a driver .

It's one of those jobs that the TOCs encourage movement into, I suppose. Just in simple terms relevant to the employee it has to be seen as a promotion at least in remuneration I think - I'd nearly double my wages (albeit not in practice with tax etc) if I became a mainline driver.

In practice if it properly kicks off then from a safety perspective the driver has to be first amongst equals with their guard otherwise it becomes a muddle. I will always manage the passengers, I'm solid with my traction and route knowledge and experience has taught me to recognise signs that I need to make an intervention, whether that's with the driver, control or other staff, and I'm always there to offer advice or assist if need be, particularly with newer drivers.

Of course on the TOC in question at Avanti the Train Manager has a lot more going on with looking after their crew and up to 11 coaches than I do on my Sprinter or 170

 

[exbrel]

and as for paying staff when not at work for strike days:

Members employed as defined in Rule 2, Clause 1, when unemployed in consequence of taking part in any dispute or movement coming within the provisions of these Rules shall, at the discretion of the National Executive Committee, receive strike benefit paid from the General Fund, being an allowance of £1.00 per weekday with a maximum of five days’ payment per week.
The last strike I was involved in was in 1989, worked out at 3 days a week sometimes, so it was £3, I do not know anyone who actually got it, you had to go to a specific location in order to get it, parking the car would have cost more than the £1 a day 'benefit' !

both Unite and Unison have doubled their daily strike pay since 2019, Unite members on strike are getting £70 a day, Unison are paying £50, which in the present situation might help a little, but £1 if given???

 

[dk1]

Everyone who works on the Railway be they TOC/FOC/NR are all a 'team', no one person is better than the other, without one, the other can't work.

Totally agree mate. Takes the smallest cog to turn the biggest wheel & all that.

 

[craigybagel]

Went to my local Avanti station today to buy tickets for later this week. Discovered that whilst they're still happily selling tickets, they're stopped offering seat reservations. Should make for an interesting journey no doubt.

 

[dk1]

Went to my local Avanti station today to buy tickets for later this week. Discovered that whilst they're still happily selling tickets, they're stopped offering seat reservations. Should make for an interesting journey no doubt.

At least that stops all the squabbling & hastle onboard.

 

[craigybagel]

At least that stops all the squabbling & hastle onboard.

I guess it depends on what happens to reservations booked before they stopped offering them - if they ever did?

 

[Elecman]

I guess it depends on what happens to reservations booked before they stopped offering them - if they ever did?

They are cancelled

 

[craigybagel]

They are cancelled

All of them? That's good to know. Not so good for the passengers but a relief in a selfish level!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are cancelled

This isn't quite what is happening on the ground, however.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Avanti seem to be embarking on a scorched earth policy:


Cancel loads of trains – people still travelling

Massively reduce timetable and still cancel trains - people still travelling

Stop selling tickets – still hasn’t put everybody off

Cancel reservations so people who have put up with all the nonsense because at least they can guarantee getting a seat now can’t – that should finally get rid of them.

 

[Huntergreed]

Avanti seem to be embarking on a scorched earth policy:


Cancel loads of trains – people still travelling

Massively reduce timetable and still cancel trains - people still travelling

Stop selling tickets – still hasn’t put everybody off

Cancel reservations so people who have put up with all the nonsense because at least they can guarantee getting a seat now can’t – that should finally get rid of them.

And yet they’ll still wonder why everyone doesn’t come rushing back as soon as this is resolved!

 

[craigybagel]

This isn't quite what is happening on the ground, however.

What is happening?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is happening?

Staff are saying reservations still apply and that those without or anyone wrongly double booked should go to coach C (and sometimes declassified standard premium). But it appears none are displayed.

 

[Huntergreed]

Staff are saying reservations still apply and that those without or anyone wrongly double booked should go to coach C (and sometimes declassified standard premium). But it appears none are displayed.

Would it really be difficult for Avanti to send out an updated email to all staff to confirm this?

Knowing how they’ve been over the past while, it probably would sadly.

 

[43066]

Staff are saying reservations still apply and that those without or anyone wrongly double booked should go to coach C (and sometimes declassified standard premium). But it appears none are displayed.

Not ideal. Better surely just to disallow reservations during disruption. Sounds like a typical case of poor railway communication…

 

[craigybagel]

Staff are saying reservations still apply and that those without or anyone wrongly double booked should go to coach C (and sometimes declassified standard premium). But it appears none are displayed.

Thanks for the update. That sounds like a recipe for disaster on every level.

 

[the sniper]

Promotion doesn’t tend to be automatic in most roles. Guard to driver isn’t and never has been a line of promotion, it’s moving from one job to another, albeit within the same industry. Guard to guard manager would be a promotion.

It surely was under the 'train crew concept' of the late 80s, a path that has largely been maintained at least in spirit in some TOCs, such as Merseyrail. Even now, there seem to be a number of TOCs where Guards who go driving keep their full Guard rate, rather than dropping down to the trainee driver rate, which is probably the closest you'll get now to official recognition of it being a route of promotion.

I think it's correct to say though that nowadays in most places there is no automatic route of promotion. Even Guard Manager positions often seem to be filled externally or from non-Guard grades as much as they are from Guards being 'promoted'. Train crew supervisor roles (where they still exist) as probably the last semi-official route of promotion I know of.

 

[Huntergreed]

It’s not particularly well publicised - until a forum member mentioned them I wasn’t aware of this for my trip on Thursday - and I do use avanti a lot!

 

[Statto]

It's coach U on 11 car sets that's the unreserved coach isn't it, coach C is for 9 coach sets, i keep forgetting it's coach C on 9 coach sets & keep going into coach F.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's coach U on 11 car sets that's the unreserved coach isn't it, coach C is for 9 coach sets, i keep forgetting it's coach C on 9 coach sets & keep going into coach F.

Coach C is still unreserved on the 11 cars.

 

[43066]

It surely was under the 'train crew concept' of the late 80s, a path that has largely been maintained at least in spirit in some TOCs, such as Merseyrail. Even now, there seem to be a number of TOCs where Guards who go driving keep their full Guard rate, rather than dropping down to the trainee driver rate, which is probably the closest you'll get now to official recognition of it being a route of promotion.

“Train crew concept” I’ve never heard of, but was well before my time by the sounds of things!

Existing employees keeping their grade’s rate seems to be ubiquitous within TOCs. I have no idea whether it would be the same for a driver who chose to retrain as a guard (I’d guess not, but I’d also guess it rarely if ever happens due to the pay cut?).

Wasn’t the traditional line of promotion ticket office to guard to station master/signaller?

I think it's correct to say though that nowadays in most places there is no automatic route of promotion. Even Guard Manager positions often seem to be filled externally or from non-Guard grades as much as they are from Guards being 'promoted'. Train crew supervisor roles (where they still exist) as probably the last semi-official route of promotion I know of.

We have TCSs, I don’t believe they start out as guards, though, and indeed get paid less. The role seems to involve depot admin, printing diagrams, updating notice cases etc. and helping coordinate during disruption. Bizarrely one thing they aren’t allowed to do is book train crew on.

 

[the sniper]

“Train crew concept” I’ve never heard of, but was well before my time by the sounds of things!

Existing employees keeping their grade’s rate seems to be ubiquitous within TOCs. I have no idea whether it would be the same for a driver who chose to retrain as a guard (I’d guess not, but I’d also guess it rarely if ever happens due to the pay cut?).

Wasn’t the traditional line of promotion ticket office to guard to station master/signaller?

Not much online, you need to get your self down to the National Archives in Kew: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11218775

But this site gives a reasonable synopsis:

THE BRIGHTON BRANCH OF A.S.L.E.F.

thebrightonbranchofaslef.yolasite.com

FROM THE BACK TO FRONT DRIVERS

On Monday 3rd, October, 1988, “The Traincrew Concept” a new line of promotion to the Driver’s grade was brought into

use. This did away with the traditional line of promotion within the Motive Power grades. The Secondman’s grade was now to

be known as a Trainman (D) mixing Secondman’s work with freight guard’s work and making the position more versatile.

Trainman (D) where now being recruited up to the age of 45, rather than the previous age of 25. A new aptitude test was now

being introduced to enable the railway company to recruit the right type of person to become a Driver. All eligible guards who

were under the age of 45 would be allowed to apply to become a Driver subject to them passing this new test. Those

successful enough would have a common seniority date (03.10.88) with the guard’s seniority date being the deciding factor.

All the Brighton secondmen were soon to be promoted to Driver. A number of Brighton guards found themselves moving to the

London area depots to get their promotion to Driving jobs quicker rather than waiting for a vacancy to become available at

Brighton at the time there was little chance of getting a Drivers job at Brighton due to loss of work and also the amalgamation

of the two depots.

Just as with the end of Steam those who moved away for their promotion now found themselves away from Brighton for at

least four years or more. This was due to at least twelve months driver training followed by having to now complete three

years productive work at their depot before they where eligible to register their move back to Brighton. Whilst those Drivers

who moved away to get promotion found that during their required three years productive work vacancies started to appear at

Brighton due to retirements allowing other guards/trainmen to get their promotion to Drivers at Brighton.

We have TCSs, I don’t believe they start out as guards, though, and indeed get paid less. The role seems to involve depot admin, printing diagrams, updating notice cases etc. and helping coordinate during disruption. Bizarrely one thing they aren’t allowed to do is book train crew on.

The problem is, the railway once made sense!