Avanti West Coast cancellations

[Falcon1200]

Northern all go to Uk, Scotrail go to Uk there only ones Ive dealt with.
I presumed they were in the control rooms of the TOCs?

AFAIK Scotrail's Help Points go to their CCTV Control Rooms (which are separate from Operations Control).

 

[WizCastro197]

My dealings with help points are that you get put through to India and the poor people at the other end have no idea what do to do.

How do you know that they are poor though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you know that they are poor though?

Wrong meaning of "poor".

 

[WizCastro197]

Wrong meaning of "poor".

Oops Okay. I didn't interpret that well! My Grandmother is Indian and she would often tell me stories of people growing up in India very poor and so they all settled in this country in places like Leicester where they live. Its sounds really bad that I've interpreted that wrong. I have had a very long day.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I am not sure that this is a railtour.

It’s being run under a charter track access to the network.

 

[XAM2175]

Where else would a railtour be? That’s all this is a weekly railtour!

I am not sure that this is a railtour.

As the thread says, the Northbound train is aimed at the Friday evening commuter market from London to Manchester, and I think it is an experimental service.

However if it proves a success, other services could follow.

Legally it's a charter train occupying an empty path, notwithstanding the convenient timings and the fact that it is being widely advertised to the 'normal' public. It's a bit of bending of the spirit of the charter rules, but it isn't an open-access operation and it can't be grown into one without going through the full approvals process.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Legally it's a charter train occupying an empty path, notwithstanding the convenient timings and the fact that it is being widely advertised to the 'normal' public. It's a bit of bending of the spirit of the charter rules, but it isn't an open-access operation and it can't be grown into one without going through the full approvals process.

If it's an open sccess operation, then open tickets (subject to peak/ off peak restrictions) would be valid on it, which I dont think is the case.

 

[BJames]

Northern all go to Uk, Scotrail go to Uk there only ones Ive dealt with.
I presumed they were in the control rooms of the TOCs?

I am not sure. I used the info button on a Southern one once which was put through to what may well have been an Indian call centre. He had no knowledge whatsoever of the network and I had probably naively thought they might be more helpful than me trying to work out what was happening from OpenTrainTimes and RTT. It was not - I have not used an info button since. But quite right that in this situation you would use the emergency button.

 

[XAM2175]

If it's an open sccess operation, then open tickets (subject to peak/ off peak restrictions) would be valid on it, which I dont think is the case.

Yes, that's why I said it isn't an open-access operation

 

[TPO]

Agreed, but it might entice a few out of retirement or those who are considering quitting might take that option instead.

Very much so. Otherwise those who want to work less hours but still drive trains will just go work for one of the smaller FOCs and basically pick and choose their hours (and sometimes routes/traction too!).

That would all have to be agreed with ASLEF as per local depot agreements. At mine for example apart from I'll health or family friendly, no part time working is permitted at all only job share where both drivers have to work strictly as single entity.

Which does seem rather daft in this day and age, especially with an aging workforce and a more family-friendly culture. Not really progressive or in keeping with the spirit of the Equality Act, feels more like maintaining a 60's style male heirarchy.

Not really, for example, where there's a four day week, one person will do the first two days, the other will do the second two. As dk1 said, two people just act as one entity.

I know a Driver who does this, seems to work well for him, there's quite a bit of flexibility in reality as he and his job-share partner can swap shifts and rest days (between each other) to get a pattern of days on/off that works for both. The problem with it is that if one of the job-share pair decides to finish, the remaining half needs to find another person- or the role goes for both. So, the TOC potentially loses 1 whole Driver not half a Driver. If there were lots of Drivers out there I'd take less issue with this, but when there's a shortage of Drivers it does seem rather regressive not to allow part-time Drivers. The acceptance of job-share shows it's not a safety objection, and not working full time is ideal for keeping experienced Drivers for another few years when they don't want to do a 40-hour week any more (age does catch up) but 20 hours is fine.

Drivers are protected at the moment as the whole training thing is a big racket, just like the training of doctors. In both cases the shortage is artificially created by limiting places (and certainly for medics, there's no shortage of high-calibre candidates).

Whilst I have strong sympathy with the principle of not allowing the jobs market in a specialty to be flooded with so many qualified candidates that salaries suffer badly (as happened with HGV drivers when unlimited immigration from EU was allowed, the conditions of Lithuanian HGV Drivers were particularly egregious and drove the conditions down for all), equally there needs to be enough of a training pipeline and some flexibility to slow down wastage through (early) retirement so the basic needs for a service are met- whether it's training enough GPs or enough train drivers. A bit of flexibility on part-time working might buy time (by slowing attrition through retirement) to increase the training pipeline to where it needs to be.

I suppose in theory, one day the DfT/GBT might get someone in who figures out that if they set up a national train driver training school, they could deal with this and drive salaries down through over-supply, as with airline pilots. They would get trainers, no problem- just pay enough and you'll get the staff. But as the bods at that level generally don't get involved in the detail, it's unlikely to happen (and yes, I do know what is involved in setting up a Driver training school, including getting the required ORR permissions ).

Agreed, which is why if the railways are to be nationalised again, which currently seems to be a likely eventuality, with more franchises failing and being taken back into public operation and a highly likely Labour or centre-left coalition around New year's 2025, who since Corbyn times has explicitly outlined that it wants to renationalise the network, it has to be done as part of a wider wave of British reform, or it will just go down the toilet like BR did and be crippled with the problems other public services have been suffering since late blairite times. In almost all centrist to left wing thinking, a national railway is a sensible idea, and most of the rest of Europe would agree, but this country has a habit of not correctly funding big public services, even under Labour. At least half of BR's tenure was under Labour, and it was no less in the toilet in those times than under the periodic tory rule. It's not the tories or the neoliberalist ideals this government operates under that needs to change, its the attitude of the British public towards funding public services, and political infrastructure, that have to change if the railways, and eventually other national services like the NHS, are going to survive the next couple decades in their current state.

Indeed, but it would need proper Operational/Engineering types in charge with a remit to develop the service to serve people and the country as a whole, not make it the cheapest and run it down.

My fear is that the civil service has become institutionally unable to do this, i.e. employ proper competent people for technical roles. Heck, it struggled back in the BR days (just watch Yes, Minister) but BR, having grown out of a cohesive railway network what understood the industry was in a much better position to push back at govt shenanigans than GBR ever will be.

TPO

 

[Bald Rick]

Unite is a very big union, but even they would struggle to afford strike pay if a large proportion of their membership were on strike. So I'd be very surprised if the the rail unions could afford it for more than the briefest time.

The RMT are a wealthy union, partly as a result of their extensive investment portfolio. They have done very well playing the capitalist markets!

 

[dk1]

Which does seem rather daft in this day and age, especially with an aging workforce and a more family-friendly culture. Not really progressive or in keeping with the spirit of the Equality Act, feels more like maintaining a 60's style male heirarchy.

Certainly not. You seem to be getting the wrong end of the stick. It's down to making it fair for the workforce. They are already bending over backwards in making allowances for those who choose to have a family etc.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Several franchises had already failed to successfully deliver proposed timetable, & efficiency improvements whilst others were in financial trouble too. The model was broken.

The model was broken because the DfT destroyed it. Anyhow to explain better DfT putting all franchises not run by DOLR on EMAs meant civil servants suddenly found themselves in at the deep end dealing with things they didn't understand. Then the Treasury started moaning about the cash going out the door so now the civil servants are poking around looking at where to save money and start questioning why so money is spent on o/t, RDW etc etc. They tell operators to cut it without understanding the consequences ie services unreliability leading to fare income decline and then pass go and start the process all over again.

My point was when it was franchises the minutia of running the operation was left to them and they had the incentive to balance off costs vs income risk which they no longer have.

 

[the sniper]

Drivers are protected at the moment as the whole training thing is a big racket, just like the training of doctors. In both cases the shortage is artificially created by limiting places (and certainly for medics, there's no shortage of high-calibre candidates).

Whilst I have strong sympathy with the principle of not allowing the jobs market in a specialty to be flooded with so many qualified candidates that salaries suffer badly (as happened with HGV drivers when unlimited immigration from EU was allowed, the conditions of Lithuanian HGV Drivers were particularly egregious and drove the conditions down for all), equally there needs to be enough of a training pipeline and some flexibility to slow down wastage through (early) retirement so the basic needs for a service are met- whether it's training enough GPs or enough train drivers. A bit of flexibility on part-time working might buy time (by slowing attrition through retirement) to increase the training pipeline to where it needs to be.

I suppose in theory, one day the DfT/GBT might get someone in who figures out that if they set up a national train driver training school, they could deal with this and drive salaries down through over-supply, as with airline pilots. They would get trainers, no problem- just pay enough and you'll get the staff. But as the bods at that level generally don't get involved in the detail, it's unlikely to happen (and yes, I do know what is involved in setting up a Driver training school, including getting the required ORR permissions ).

I'm not sure it can be considered a racket when the biggest controlling factor is the DfT holding the purse strings, controlling recruitment, with the largest uncontrollable factor being how many people you can get with DIs for/through handling.

There needn't be any shortage of trainees now being put through TOC schools, some TOCs have a large number of Trainees sitting idle having done so, the bigger issue is getting the numbers through handling. While a paid national train driver training school seems highly likely in future, with the opportunities that'll take from many working class people, it won't make any difference to being reliant on enough people volunteering to become DIs and getting people through the hours.

 

[Dan_Frank]

thank you for the suggestion and in theory it was a very good one. I went to my local station and the helpful man behind the counter initially seemed to think it would be doable. However when he went into the reservation system he found that Avanti were not accepting ticket reservations for the type of ticket (Advance Single) that I had, so no luck unfortunately.

If the trains are open for reservations and aren’t sold out yes that is the case.

As @HamworthyGoods has said, if reservations are available for the new train then yes.

 

[43066]

Which does seem rather daft in this day and age, especially with an aging workforce and a more family-friendly culture. Not really progressive or in keeping with the spirit of the Equality Act, feels more like maintaining a 60's style male heirarchy.

Yet we read on here that people want trains to be available 24/7, on Sundays, on Boxing Day etc. Operational railway roles can be very anti social and that’s why they’re not for everyone. It’s likely to get worse into the future.

Every “accommodated” driver has their share of horrendously early starts, late finishes etc. dished out to their colleagues. This is why it can and does cause resentment. Part time less so because they just share one line in the roster and do their fair share of the anti social turns.

 

[LowLevel]

Yet we read on here that people want trains to be available 24/7, on Sundays, on Boxing Day etc. Operational railway roles can be very anti social and that’s why they’re not for everyone. It’s likely to get worse into the future.

Every “accommodated” driver has their share of horrendously early starts, late finishes etc. dished out to their colleagues. This is why it can and does cause resentment. Part time less so because they just share one line in the roster and do their fair share of the anti social turns.

Oh I don't know - stick someone on a 9 hour turn booking on at 0830 and off at 1730 so they have to drive both ways in rush hour traffic like many accommodated folk do and listen to the moans I personally love them because I don't have to get up early and there's a train that suits me to get to and from, but plenty of people moan like hell when they get proper "middles" turns that eat up the whole day.

I've never been accommodated and touch wood am never likely to be, but we've had accommodated lines that are things like Liverpool - Worksop for 9 plus hours 3 days a week every week.

Most of ours are fixed hours for childcare in separated couples rather than anything else, so the hours are often as anti social as anyone else, but the fixed times/days allow custody arrangements to be settled.

 

[43066]

Oh I don't know - stick someone on a 9 hour turn booking on at 0830 and off at 1730 so they have to drive both ways in rush hour traffic like many accommodated folk do and listen to the moans I personally love them because I don't have to get up early and there's a train that suits me to get to and from, but plenty of people moan like hell when they get proper "middles" turns that eat up the whole day.

Those are the turns I like as well! Thankfully there isn’t anyone accommodated where I am to take them up.

Most of ours are fixed hours for childcare in separated couples rather than anything else, so the hours are often as anti social as anyone else, but the fixed times/days allow custody arrangements to be settled.

It’s a difficult one because then there are many who have equally difficult circumstances outside work yet are not accommodated and just have to make it work. As you say it’s not a position I’m in or ever hope to be in.

 

[LYuen]

I'm not sure it can be considered a racket when the biggest controlling factor is the DfT holding the purse strings, controlling recruitment, with the largest uncontrollable factor being how many people you can get with DIs for/through handling.

There needn't be any shortage of trainees now being put through TOC schools, some TOCs have a large number of Trainees sitting idle having done so, the bigger issue is getting the numbers through handling. While a paid national train driver training school seems highly likely in future, with the opportunities that'll take from many working class people, it won't make any difference to being reliant on enough people volunteering to become DIs and getting people through the hours.

It could be a survival bias but OLR does seems to be a better model than TOCs. At the very least, Northern negotiated with Network Rail to create a deliverable timetable at Manchester, which Arriva failed to do so. Although there are competent TOCs, I can imagine some of them would be unable to fix problems due to bureaucracy and lack of financial incentive to do so.
It is astonishing to see Northern has become the more reliable railway from the least, and that the more competent railway companies serving the north are either OLR or council-owned. (Excluding those midland focused ones)

 

[Bald Rick]

It could be a survival bias but OLR does seems to be a better model than TOCs. At the very least, Northern negotiated with Network Rail to create a deliverable timetable at Manchester, which Arriva failed to do so. Although there are competent TOCs, I can imagine some of them would be unable to fix problems due to bureaucracy and lack of financial incentive to do so.

That was nothing to do with Northern being OLR - it was exactly the same people doing the work. And indeed it wasn‘t a TOC v NR problem. It was (as ever) a Rail Industry v Politicians problem, with in this case the Politicians of ‘the North’ unable to agree amongst themselves what they wanted. Actually that’s not quite true, in the words of one person close to the discussion talking about the politicians: “they are all agreed - everyone wants everything”

 

[irish_rail]

Every “accommodated” driver has their share of horrendously early starts, late finishes etc. dished out to their colleagues. This is why it can and does cause resentment. Part time less so because they just share one line in the roster and do their fair share of the anti social tuturns.

This is a fair point. Accommodating drivers long term in my view is very very problematic. Short term I get it. But allowing someone indefinitely only to work decent hours and routes really is sh*tting on ones colleagues.
As you say, I also fear it will get alot worse in the coming years and those not accommodated will either be driven out by fatigue and stress or driven to an early grave.

 

[43066]

This is a fair point. Accommodating drivers long term in my view is very very problematic. Short term I get it. But allowing someone indefinitely only to work decent hours and routes really is sh*tting on ones colleagues.
As you say, I also fear it will get alot worse in the coming years and those not accommodated will either be driven out by fatigue and stress or driven to an early grave.

The harsh reality of a 24 hour railway is that is simply isn’t possible to have many people fitting the job around their lifestyle choices. For everyone that is allowed to do so, other people have to pick up the slack. I hate getting up early with a passion and would like to do 9-5 all the time. Why should I be less able to be accommodated for this reason than someone who has (for instance) chosen to have children?! The only fair way to do it is for everyone to work to the same roster and arrange swaps etc. if they need to. That is what the vast majority of us do already - including many colleagues with big responsibilities such as young families, elderly relatives etc.

I completely get it for people who are carers etc., but it cannot be open ended and there comes a point where if you can’t do the shifts then perhaps the job isn’t for you.

 

[TPO]

I'm not sure it can be considered a racket when the biggest controlling factor is the DfT holding the purse strings, controlling recruitment, with the largest uncontrollable factor being how many people you can get with DIs for/through handling.

There needn't be any shortage of trainees now being put through TOC schools, some TOCs have a large number of Trainees sitting idle having done so, the bigger issue is getting the numbers through handling. While a paid national train driver training school seems highly likely in future, with the opportunities that'll take from many working class people, it won't make any difference to being reliant on enough people volunteering to become DIs and getting people through the hours.

I would argue that with DfT holding the purse-strings and stopping progress, that maintains the racket. A bit of long-term planning and funding, and a balanced plan which maintained a decent salary/conditions for those in jobs yet also put some resilience into the diagrams to underpin rail as a reliable service for the public would go a long way.

I cannot see how change can come otherwise. And we need change if rail in to be the mode of transport (rather than a last resort) in coming decades.

Those are the turns I like as well! Thankfully there isn’t anyone accommodated where I am to take them up.



It’s a difficult one because then there are many who have equally difficult circumstances outside work yet are not accommodated and just have to make it work. As you say it’s not a position I’m in or ever hope to be in.

I don't have kids but I understand that it's fair to give priority to time off in school holidays to those who have because those kids will one day be paying for my pension etc.

"Difficult turns" is interesting; your idea of difficult and mine may differ!

Personally, I'm fine with late and night turns but early turns kill me. (Thankfully I no longer work shifts but when I did....). Never minded working Christmas, I'd rather have holiday other times of year. Maybe we should give persons from other faiths their "holy days" off and they can work Sunday/Christian holidays as normal days, that way everyone has more chance of getting the days that are important to them and their family.

In an ideal world, we could match up the natural inclinations of people to shifts. (This happens informally by and by large when shifts are swapped, I know another driver who never worked early shifts when he was in passenger work as he always managed to swap, then he went into freight and found it much more difficult as less opportunity for swapping). And maybe recruit from a wide enough pool of age and demographic that we get a mix of preferences.

This whole thing about accommodating would also be easier if we had enough drivers to cover the whole roster and expected levels of sickness, training etc without requiring rest-day working. Strange that an industry which is quick to quote "Hidden" (yes, I know times have moved on and it's much more involved than that) have people who are are more than happy to work their rest-days. Thing with accommodating is that you never know when you will need it...... (I don't condone swinging the lead/abusing the system but that's about competence of management, not about the system per se).

I suggest we need:
- sufficient establishment to cover the real requirements without rest-day working
- that level of establishment should also allow for more route refresh/ongoing training so there's much better diversionary knowledge and alternative traction knowledge
- a level of training to deliver those requirements and maintain them. Maybe a nationally-run training system so there's more flexibility between traction on same routes
- with more training opportunity, make sure that people from all backgrounds- working class included- not needing an overly-high pre-qual level- have access
- focus on a long-term career in a grade with decent conditions, decent pension, options for work if you become medically unfit and a reasonable salary for the work level and demands.
Might not be a sky-high salary- but overall good conditions. Good conditions created goodwill, so if you get this right, you have a decent place to work and people stay there after training.

Not just for Drivers either, but also for Signallers, Controllers, critical maintainers.

Pay for it by removing the duplicated top management and pointless jobs that come from having multiple entities bidding every few years to run trains.

(I know, I have just outlined a modern version of BR....!)

This would give a level of reliability and robustness to train operating. When things fall over, you've have half a chance of finding someone to take the delayed train out......

(Of course, it all needs to be in a wider context of things like availability of housing and suchlike).

TPO

 

[43066]

I don't have kids but I understand that it's fair to give priority to time off in school holidays to those who have because those kids will one day be paying for my pension etc.

I disagree. Having kids is a lifestyle choice, arguably quite a selfish one in many ways, and lots of colleagues with kids on the railway manage okay without being accommodated. Why are some seen as more deserving than others?

No priority is given to time off in school holidays for those with kids. It’s possible for those people to do annual leave swaps, indeed I swapped with a colleague with a family this year so that he could be off in August. That’s the fair and proper way of doing it.

"Difficult turns" is interesting; your idea of difficult and mine may differ!

Personally, I'm fine with late and night turns but early turns kill me. (Thankfully I no longer work shifts but when I did....). Never minded working Christmas, I'd rather have holiday other times of year. Maybe we should give persons from other faiths their "holy days" off and they can work Sunday/Christian holidays as normal days, that way everyone has more chance of getting the days that are important to them and their family.

In an ideal world, we could match up the natural inclinations of people to shifts. (This happens informally by and by large when shifts are swapped, I know another driver who never worked early shifts when he was in passenger work as he always managed to swap, then he went into freight and found it much more difficult as less opportunity for swapping). And maybe recruit from a wide enough pool of age and demographic that we get a mix of preferences.

Trouble is you’re always going to have competing preferences which are impossible to reconcile: why should someone wanting Fridays or Sundays off for religious reasons take priority over someone who wants every Saturday off to watch the football, spend time with family, or whatever?! You’ll always find more people like earlies than lates, and all dayers tend to be the least popular.

The only fair way of doing it is for everyone coming into the job these days to understand they’ll have to do shifts and fit their lives around work rather than the other way around. It’s part of the reason why we’re paid well and a lot can be achieved with swaps. If we don’t work rest days we also get a fair bit of time off (albeit not always when we want it).

That’s the deal on offer: for those unwilling to do that, other jobs are available!

 

[dk1]

Trouble is you’re always going to have competing preferences which are impossible to reconcile: why should someone wanting Fridays or Sundays off for religious reasons take priority over someone who wants every Saturday off to watch the football, spend time with family, or whatever?! You’ll always find more people like earlies than lates, and all dayers tend to be the least popular.

The only fair way of doing it is for everyone coming into the job these days to understand they’ll have to do shifts and fit their lives around work rather than the other way around. It’s part of the reason why we’re paid well and a lot can be achieved with swaps. If we don’t work rest days we also get a fair bit of time off (albeit not always when we want it).

That’s the deal on offer: for those unwilling to do that, other jobs are available!

I concur wholeheartedly.

 

[LYuen]

That was nothing to do with Northern being OLR - it was exactly the same people doing the work. And indeed it wasn‘t a TOC v NR problem. It was (as ever) a Rail Industry v Politicians problem, with in this case the Politicians of ‘the North’ unable to agree amongst themselves what they wanted. Actually that’s not quite true, in the words of one person close to the discussion talking about the politicians: “they are all agreed - everyone wants everything”

And also "they all disagree the problem is on their own side". The real problem is, as long as TOC being in the private sector, extra funding / cutting back service could not (and should not) be approved without careful audit from the public sector. Although if there really was staff shortage or unrealistic timetable (for the set of resources), it would be too late to fix anything.
As public companies under the same umbrella, what we can hope for is that the performance is being accounted more than cost, while short of resources can be transparent, while a complicated model incentivise and guarantee the profit for private TOC is no longer needed.
I know this is just an ideology but I think the benefits / reasons for OLR companies not failing are under studied.

Trouble is you’re always going to have competing preferences which are impossible to reconcile: why should someone wanting Fridays or Sundays off for religious reasons take priority over someone who wants every Saturday off to watch the football, spend time with family, or whatever?! You’ll always find more people like earlies than lates, and all dayers tend to be the least popular.

The only fair way of doing it is for everyone coming into the job these days to understand they’ll have to do shifts and fit their lives around work rather than the other way around. It’s part of the reason why we’re paid well and a lot can be achieved with swaps. If we don’t work rest days we also get a fair bit of time off (albeit not always when we want it).

That’s the deal on offer: for those unwilling to do that, other jobs are available!

I assume the rest day working in the railway industry means the sixth or seventh day of working (voluntary overtime), disregard the day of the week, is it not?

 

[AndrewE]

My dealings with help points are that you get put through to India and the poor people at the other end have no idea what do to do.

My experience too, although quite a few years ago now, so may not be the current position.

At Edale after a walk and an evening pub meal we were waiting for a train to Sheffield... it appeared then disappeared from the platform screens. After 10 or 15 mins I pushed the button to be told "that train is on time!" I said "it certainly isn't, we are here waiting for it and it hasn't arrived."
Indian person didn't know the geography, or have access to train running times, or any concept of what a remote unstaffed station was like when your train hasn't come. I think they only knew thatit had left Piccadilly.
An express went through and then eventually our train turned up. I think we were about to abandon it and debating whether go to look for a taxi, or even a bus along the main road.

THis is one of the things pushing me towards getting a smartphone, so that I can have access to real information - if we have a signal!

 

[Goldfish62]

My experience too, although quite a few years ago now, so may not be the current position.

THis is one of the things pushing me towards getting a smartphone, so that I can have access to real information - if we have a signal!

You'd still be out of luck with real-time tracking on the Hope Valley line!

 

[Zontar]

I concur wholeheartedly.

Likewise. As they say in the army when similar moans occur, "you chose the army, the army didn't choose you"

 

[dk1]

Likewise. As they say in the army when similar moans occur, "you chose the army, the army didn't choose you"

I like that