TfL Emergency Board meeting 9th August re funding crisis

[Snow1964]

Very short-notice change to certain ticketing arrangements being announced tomorrow ...

Interesting.

Separately (rumour) I had heard that certain passes are cause of friction (between Board and presumably mayor) specifically those in clause 11e as continuing them cannot be paid for from funding, borrowing, savings or service changes

11e. If you and TfL wish Londoners to continue to benefit from travel concession and/or other benefits above those typically available elsewhere in England (such as free travel for all Londoners aged under 18 and 60-65, excluding statutory entitlements including under the Education Act 1996) then you and TfL recognise that the costs of these additional benefits will not be met by HMG funding; and you and TfL commit to meeting the costs of these additional benefits during the Funding Period, without recourse to additional borrowing, savings, service changes, the new revenue streams resulting from paragraph 11a or deferrals.

Awaiting any changes

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1101713/tfl-long-term-funding-settlement-30-august-2022.pdf

 

[winks]

Such as ?

 

[jayah]

Interesting.

Separately (rumour) I had heard that certain passes are cause of friction (between Board and presumably mayor) specifically those in clause 11e as continuing them cannot be paid for from funding, borrowing, savings or service changes


Awaiting any changes

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1101713/tfl-long-term-funding-settlement-30-august-2022.pdf

60yr olds paying to use public transport! What is the world coming to?

This is nothing new, at the time RPI rate was confirmed which the pay was based on, this was already mentioned.

Multi year RPI is not normal, as you don't know 6 months out what it might be.

Doubly so if you have no intention of raising fares by the same.

 

[Joe Paxton]

60yr olds paying to use public transport! What is the world coming to?

In 2012 a certain someone said this...

"I said that Londoners over 60 would get the 24-hour Freedom Pass and I'm a man who keeps my promises," the Mayor said. "I'm conscious that my promise of free travel has been eroded by a decision from Ken Livingstone's Labour Party to raise the age where Londoners qualify for the Freedom Pass. So today I renew my pledge to elderly Londoners that they will get free travel from the age of 60."

That certain someone was Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister for the next few days at least and at the time the Mayor of London with one term under his belt and looking to secure a second.

As the national (England-wide) age to qualify for the ENCTS pass was being raised from 60 by the then Labour government - hence the reference to "Ken Livingstone's Labour Party" - Boris pledged to continue offering free travel to Londoners, a pledge which was matched by Livingstone (his principal electoral opponent in 2012) and which took the form of the 60+ London Oyster photocard, paid for by GLA/TfL funds as the Freedom Pass itself is paid for by the London boroughs.

I distinctly recall Boris's line of attack on the 'evil' Labour government for taking away free travel for the over 60s by gradually (and in my opinion quite reasonably) raising the age to qualify for the ENCTS pass, and how he'd be the saviour. Of course I don't expect him to the any ownership of the decisions forced on the Mayor and TfL by central government if the announcement made tomorrow rescinds some of these extra benefits!

 

[Mojo]

Multi year RPI is not normal, as you don't know 6 months out what it might be.

That isn’t what I was saying though; my point was in relation to the quote which said that the pay rise will have to come out of further reductions to expenditure. This was known about in March when the Feb RPI was announced, hence is nothing new.

FWIW, it has historically always been the company that wants long term multi year deals, with the TUs that prefer short term deals.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Oyster card card purchase fee goes to £7 and the £5 rebate is axed.

Heathrow Piccadilly line fares increase to peak fare at all times.

Hatton Cross included in free Heathrow travel area.
(So is it now possible to exit/enter at Hatton Cross and then use another card to avoid)

 

[Joe Paxton]

Oyster card card purchase fee goes to £7 and the £5 rebate is axed.

Heathrow Piccadilly line fares increase to peak fare at all times.

Metro article - Tube and Elizabeth Line fares to and from Heathrow to go up

Tube passengers travelling to Heathrow via Zone 1 will be charged at peak rate from Sunday to help Transport for London (TfL) recover from the pandemic.

Commuters taking the new Elizabeth line through the central zone to the airport will be charged £12.80, up from £10.80. Those on the Piccadilly line will pay £5.50, up from £3.50.

From tomorrow, the fee for an Oyster card will also increase for the first time since 2011, from £5 to £7, TfL has said.

The increases are expected to generate an additional £27million per year and support TfL’s target to achieve ‘financially sustainable operations’ by April 2023, according to the operator.

Journeys to Heathrow Airport, which avoid Zone 1, will continue to have an off-peak fare, while journeys ending at stations before it will not be affected.

The changes have been introduced after the school summer holiday to minimise disruption to families and visitors, TfL said.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan said the increase was chosen on a route which will have the least impact on commuters struggling with the rising cost of living.

He added: ‘Raising more money from fares was a condition of our funding deal with Government.

‘This fare increase was chosen as one which would have a lower impact on Londoners currently worried about the cost of living, and to ensure that journeys that avoid Zone 1 will not be affected, helping to protect those living near and working at the airport.’
[...]

OK so both Elizabeth line and Piccadilly line fares to Heathrow for journeys starting from or via zone 1 will be charged at peak rates at all times. This is not dissimilar to the premium that many cities in Europe and beyond have for public transport journeys to or from their airports - of course the Elizabeth Line fares already carried a premium for the tunnel access (payable to Heathrow Airport Ltd), but now these will be peak at all times.

Hatton Cross included in free Heathrow travel area.
(So is it now possible to exit/enter at Hatton Cross and then use another card to avoid)

Interesting that Hatton Cross Tube station becomes part of the free intra-Heathrow travel arrangements.

One issue with the 'Hatton Cross shuffle' as suggested above (exit & re-enter with different card) is that there are no lifts or escalators between the subterranean platform level and ground level, so you'll often find people heaving suitcases up the stairs there.

It also makes Hatton Cross Tube station effectively a 'free' drop-off and pick-up point for Heathrow airport - though the car-park signage there suggests that anyone staying longer than 10 minutes without paying may receive a 'Parking Charge Notice' (aka invoice) from operator NCP.

 

[jumble]

60yr olds paying to use public transport! What is the world coming to?

No thanks
Since my understanding is that this is paid for as part of my council tax I fail to understand why anyone who lives outside London Boroughs cares one way or another.

 

[jayah]

In 2012 a certain someone said this...


That certain someone was Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister for the next few days at least and at the time the Mayor of London with one term under his belt and looking to secure a second.

As the national (England-wide) age to qualify for the ENCTS pass was being raised from 60 by the then Labour government - hence the reference to "Ken Livingstone's Labour Party" - Boris pledged to continue offering free travel to Londoners, a pledge which was matched by Livingstone (his principal electoral opponent in 2012) and which took the form of the 60+ London Oyster photocard, paid for by GLA/TfL funds as the Freedom Pass itself is paid for by the London boroughs.

I distinctly recall Boris's line of attack on the 'evil' Labour government for taking away free travel for the over 60s by gradually (and in my opinion quite reasonably) raising the age to qualify for the ENCTS pass, and how he'd be the saviour. Of course I don't expect him to the any ownership of the decisions forced on the Mayor and TfL by central government if the announcement made tomorrow rescinds some of these extra benefits!

Politicians have infantilised the public for years.

Free goodies for all. You can have expensive new buses and free tickets. High electricity prices? I'll just freeze them and you won't notice. COVID debt - forget about that.

No thanks
Since my understanding is that this is paid for as part of my council tax I fail to understand why anyone who lives outside London Boroughs cares one way or another.

If you saw what people outside London paid for their Council Tax, and how little they get for it, you would understand.
There is clearly a lot of money from outside London being used to subsidise a number of public services and entitlements that don't exist outside the M25.

 

[SynthD]

There is clearly a lot of money from outside London being used to subsidise a number of public services and entitlements that don't exist outside the M25.

It's not clear. There's a lot of debate about this. Charitably, your opinion is only possibly true if someone measured what isn't yet measured and it turns out to be huge.

 

[778]

Do we know if travelcarards for people outside of London is going to be axed by TFL? I have heard rumours but it has not been confirmed.

 

[matt_world2004]

Do we know if travelcarards for people outside of London is going to be axed by TFL? I have heard rumours but it has not been confirmed.

Doesn't appear to be yet.

 

[E27007]

No thanks
Since my understanding is that this is paid for as part of my council tax I fail to understand why anyone who lives outside London Boroughs cares one way or another.

I live in London, and received the 60+ Oystercard, for 6 years the card saved me a considerable sum of money in fares and travel costs,( annual car mileage down to near-zero).
The money saved each year was close to my Community Charge bill, and London Community Charges are lower than elsewhere by £500 to £1000 per year, (from conversations with workmates).
When I was told about the 60+ card, I did not believe it existed, I though I was a target for a prank.
I do not think the 60+ scheme will survive, I always though it as a unexpected privilege for Londoners, and too good to be true

 

[AM9]

I live in London, and received the 60+ Oystercard, for 6 years the card saved me a considerable sum of money in fares and travel costs,( annual car mileage down to near-zero).
The money saved each year was close to my Community Charge bill, and London Community Charges are lower than elsewhere by £500 to £1000 per year, (from conversations with workmates).
When I was told about the 60+ card, I did not believe it existed, I though I was a target for a prank.
I do not think the 60+ scheme will survive, I always though it as a unexpected privilege for Londoners, and too good to be true

Sometimes the making free travel on public transpoort to some actually pays in other ways. In the case of the 60+, it removes a proportion of road users (mainly single occupancy car drivers) from roads whose traffic has been breaking pollution limits for several years. Providing that benefit is mantained over succesive generations, it is effectively fair for all GLA residents.

 

[DC1989]

How many over 60s are there in London? 1.5 million roughly? And that number will surely rise. For an organisation that is completely broke I think it's only right that this should be changed. 60 isn't really 'elderly' these days for most people either. The eligibility should go up to 70 or 75 imo.

The disabled should of course retain a freedom pass

 

[AM9]

How many over 60s are there in London? 1.5 million roughly? And that number will surely rise. For an organisation that is completely broke I think it's only right that this should be changed. 60 isn't really 'elderly' these days for most people either. The eligibility should go up to 70 or 75 imo.

The disabled should of course retain a freedom pass

A view typical of many in their 30s. I don't live within the GLA so I get nothing from that scheme, but nor do I resent those that do.

 

[SynthD]

A view typical of many in their 30s. I don't live within the GLA so I get nothing from that scheme, but nor do I resent those that do.

Shapps and Khan are in their 50s and are the ones making this change. It was an election bribe that was financially questionable before covid. I'm surprised it's the most contentious change.

 

[Starmill]

Sometimes the making free travel on public transpoort to some actually pays in other ways. In the case of the 60+, it removes a proportion of road users (mainly single occupancy car drivers) from roads whose traffic has been breaking pollution limits for several years. Providing that benefit is mantained over succesive generations, it is effectively fair for all GLA residents.

More people would use public transport if were cheaper for everyone, rather than entirely free for the select few.

 

[Bletchleyite]

More people would use public transport if were cheaper for everyone, rather than entirely free for the select few.

Very true. We do seem to have ended up in a position of charging very high fares for young and middle aged adults to fund free travel for older people in most areas. I don't wholly object to such schemes but they should be properly funded from taxation.

 

[AM9]

Very true. We do seem to have ended up in a position of charging very high fares for young and middle aged adults to fund free travel for older people in most areas. I don't wholly object to such schemes but they should be properly funded from taxation.

The 60+ scheme is funded by local taxation.

 

[Mikey C]

And the reality is that the tube isn't crowded with 60 somethings, travelling night and day just because it's free!

 

[AM9]

And the reality is that the tube isn't crowded with 60 somethings, travelling night and day just because it's free!

Yup, that's another myth put about by those who complain about things that they don't get themselves. ENCTS passes (and freedom passes) also cost very little to issue, and many of their holders might only use them once per month or less.

 

[43066]

And the reality is that the tube isn't crowded with 60 somethings, travelling night and day just because it's free!

Yup, that's another myth put about by those who complain about things that they don't get themselves. ENCTS passes (and freedom passes) also cost very little to issue, and many of their holders might only use them once per month or less.

Indeed. These schemes are about encouraging occasional travel by those who might not generally, much or at all. I’m sure free travel for kids also encourages family days out, with paying adults, who wouldn’t make the same trips if the kids had to pay.

 

[zero]

All the 60-64yo people I know use it to commute to work, so they tend to only ride the tube once shortly after 9am and once in the afternoon on weekdays, or at other odd times if they work evening shifts. Even if they need to go in earlier on some days, they are still saving hundreds to thousands over what they paid when they were 59.

 

[stuu]

There is clearly a lot of money from outside London being used to subsidise a number of public services and entitlements that don't exist outside the M25.

Net outflow of tax revenue from London to the rest of the country was £38bn in 2019, so please explain what evidence you are basing your statement on

 

[43066]

If you saw what people outside London paid for their Council Tax, and how little they get for it, you would understand.
There is clearly a lot of money from outside London being used to subsidise a number of public services and entitlements that don't exist outside the M25.

Net outflow of tax revenue from London to the rest of the country was £38bn in 2019, so please explain what evidence you are basing your statement on

Yes, the anti London resentment and moaning often encountered on these threads is extraordinary. As a Londoner I’d be very happy with that £38bn being redirected to benefit the city that actually generated it…

 

[Goldfish62]

Savings should be made to the pension scheme - it would still remain a “DB” pension but reforms could be made to enable career average earnings rather than final salary.

Why? The independent review commissioned by Shapps gave the answer he wasn't looking for. It concluded that the current pension scheme is well run and well funded and while there are potential options for saving money, they would take a long time to realise and have a counter-productive impact on the ability to recruit and retain staff. Other public sector pension schemes which were reformed, eg the local government scheme, were in trouble financially. That is not the case with the TfL scheme.

The government is only so obsessed with the TFL pension scheme because they hate the fact that it gives ordinary working people a reasonable pension.

Anyway, it's not going to happen. Andy Byford was on TV the other day saying that one of the biggest pushback successes in the negotiations was on on pensions reform. The draft settlement made it mandatory for TfL to "reform" (ie downgrade) the pension scheme. This has been drastically watered down to presenting options with no commitment to introducing any of them.

Some of the grades should be harmonised or simplified too. Well overdue!

Really?! The current Pay Bands are far too wide as it is. People in the same band and with their job descriptions having been scored to be in the same range can be on salaries up to £20k apart.

 

[E27007]

All the 60-64yo people I know use it to commute to work, so they tend to only ride the tube once shortly after 9am and once in the afternoon on weekdays, or at other odd times if they work evening shifts. Even if they need to go in earlier on some days, they are still saving hundreds to thousands over what they paid when they were 59.

Under 18 years of age, you are legally a minor with certain privileges and exemptions, over 66 (current State Pension age) you are a senior citizen with certain privileges, a state pension and exemptions,. In between 18 and 66, there is little difference, you are simply of adult age. Somehow, certain privileges have been granted to a section of the adult age span, the 60 - 65 age group, but not to the 18 to 59 age span, from 60 we receive free NHS prescriptions, free public transport travel privileges and probably a few more others may raise. In practical terms it is a form of age discrimination.
I find that hard to justify. If anyone needs a helping hand, it is the 30 to 40 age group, they are the group with the financial burdens, mortgages, children etc, why have our politicians created such a system of discrimination?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find that hard to justify. If anyone needs a helping hand, it is the 30 to 40 age group, they are the group with the financial burdens, mortgages, children etc, why have our politicians created such a system of discrimination?

It's an alternative to paying a rate of State pension that is actually liveable, i.e. at least the full time (35-40 hour) minimum wage.

 

[E27007]

It's an alternative to paying a rate of State pension that is actually liveable, i.e. at least the full time (35-40 hour) minimum wage.

State pension age is 66 years, eligibility for free travel / NHS prescriptions do not coincide with state pension age , eligibility is 6 years in advance of state pension age