Wrong Railway Facts

[Gloster]

The update to the goods stations item is on the Railway & Canal Historical Society site: I find it by doing a search for Clinker on their in-site search function. Quick’s Guide to passenger stations is also the site. Both are substantial pdfs.

Never knew about those corrections; thanks for the "heads up" on that ongoing work.

 

[Western Sunset]

The update to the goods stations item is on the Railway & Canal Historical Society site: I find it by doing a search for Clinker on their in-site search function. Quick’s Guide to passenger stations is also the site. Both are substantial pdfs.

Thanks Glos.

Just reading a 1928 book by WV Wood and J Stamp wth the simple title "Railways". Sometimes we forget there were books around before Ian Allan...

 

[Andy873]

However, the old 'facts' have become so embedded in the secondary literature

Yes, and we have to correct them even though it goes against conversional wisdom.

I mentioned about what is anyone doing about it, I have amassed the actual true facts about my old branch line.

Many of these facts you will not find in any books, some you will, but here are the true facts. I can back them up with credible sources of documentation too:

The Great Harwood Loop line:
Closure dates / facts 1963 onwards.

Padiham station yard become a coal depot only 7/10/1963 i.e. no general goods handled.

A closure meeting was held at Blackburn station 13/5/1964 (I have the minutes of the meeting).

Original closure date for Great Harwood & Simonstone was 7/9/1964 (letter).

Another letter 4/9/1964 postponed the closure until 2/11/1964.

The signal boxes at Great Harwood West & East plus the one at Simonstone close at the same time 2/11/1964.

Both stations and buildings demolished Oct-Dec 1965.

Same time as the demolition, the Down line was removed from Blackburn to just outside Padiham leaving 1 mile, 51 chains left.

Padiham station was demolished 19/8/1967.

August / Sept 1967, the Up line was removed from Blackburn to the western end of Padiham power station leaving 1 mile, 71 chains left.

Padiham junction (Rose Grove on the East Lancs line) to the power station remains at this point double track.

Padiham goods yard (already coal only) closes 17/6/1968.

The Down line from Padiham junction to the power station is removed over two weekends 22, 23, & 28, 29 June 1969 leaving just the Up line.

Padiham signal box closes 30/6/1969 (the day after).

After the closure of the power station the line remains extant until 20/5/2008 when the final section is lifted.

Official!

I can cite all of the facts, we just have to shout loud enough and long enough.

 

[Western Sunset]

Very good Andy.
But there needs to be a recognisable correct interpretation of dates too.
For example, in your very detailed comments above, did Padiham goods yard receive its final traffic on 16th June 1968 or was it still open on 17th and closed at the end of business that day? Likewise with the demolition of Padiham station; did demolition begin on 19th August 1967 and just took a day to complete, was demolition started on that date and completed at some point in the future, or was demolition completed by 19th August?

 

[Andy873]

Very good Andy.
But there needs to be a recognisable correct interpretation of dates too.
For example, in your very detailed comments above, did Padiham goods yard receive its final traffic on 16th June 1968 or was it still open on 17th and closed at the end of business that day? Likewise with the demolition of Padiham station; did demolition begin on 19th August 1967 and just took a day to complete, was demolition started on that date and completed at some point in the future, or was demolition completed by 19th August?

Thanks for that. it's very encouraging!

Yes, I need to make clear what exactly do the dates signify - thanks!!!

Regarding Padiham goods yard, it comes from a BR Western Region General Instructions Circular no. A2/62 of 9 Sep 1963. The actual last general goods delivery is not known.

Regarding Padiham station demolition 19/8/1867, that was the date the demolition was completed. As for the actual date they started is at the moment unknow. The date 19/8/1967 comes from a report by the Burnley express (Padiham edition) dated 17/8/2007 stating that the 19th was when the demolition was completed.

Yes, even now there are some details missing, but I spend most days searching for information and sources. When I find one I always want it backed up with real hard evidence / paperwork, if it's not, it's more often a pointer to the truth but I don't publish it as it could be taken as fact which is not proven.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Regarding Padiham station demolition 19/8/1867, that was the date the demolition was completed.

Oops! As you'll be aware, easy to mix up certain dates.

P.S. Are you intending on more widely publishing your research in due course?

 

[Gloster]

The date of closure is most likely to be the first (week)day that it was not supposed to receive goods: what day of the week was that? In practice, businesses and traders would normally have three working days to unload their incoming wagons. Even then, if one was a bit dilatory it is unlikely that they would be locked out after three days. And of course a wagon might be delayed in transit and, if it was only a day or two, might still be delivered. There would probably be some staff still around for a week or two and at some time a train would have to come in and collect the empty wagons, although if the yard was still handling one traffic they could be attached to that. It all depended on local habits, managerial attitudes and the importance of any customers affected.

 

[Magdalia]

I'm a university-based historian of ancient Egypt and modern naval history

I forgot to pick up on this! Does your modern naval history include the Royal Navy in the period after World War 2? That has some interesting common threads with the British Railways Modernisation Plan.

 

[pdeaves]

Regarding dates, could I encourage you to record with the month written in full? That will minimise transcription errors in the future. 10 Jan? Or was that 10 Jun? Or even 10 Jul? 10/01? Or did I read 01/10?

The date of closure is most likely to be the first (week)day that it was not supposed to receive goods

That is the exact reason I prefer to record the last day that activity actually happened. That way, the reader has no need to understand the intricacies of timetables and what trains ran on what days.

 

[Western Sunset]

In a previous life, I used to be the Senior Librarian for Local Studies in a large local authority; hence I may sound rather pedantic at times...

 

[Andy873]

Regarding Padiham station demolition 19/8/1867

Yes a typo! 1967! which is why I will be going over what I type with a fine combe and probably get you great people to case an eye over it first!

 

[Zamalek]

I forgot to pick up on this! Does your modern naval history include the Royal Navy in the period after World War 2? That has some interesting common threads with the British Railways Modernisation Plan.

No, I'm a late-Victorian to early 1920s man (UK and abroard), venturing into post WW2 only if a ship I'm dealing with survived that long (in the latest book, just the South American dreadnoughts, which made it into the 1950s).

In a previous life, I used to be the Senior Librarian for Local Studies in a large local authority; hence I may sound rather pedantic at times...

Nothing wrong with making sure facts are indeed facts, rather than near-facts ....

 

[py_megapixel]

Is there any truth in the often-quoted statement that any passenger train that uses the Stockport viaduct must stop in Stockport station? Did any kind of covenant saying this, or anything vaguely similar, ever exist, or is it just made up?

 

[Andy873]

Did any kind of covenant saying this, or anything vaguely similar, ever exist, or is it just made up?

Stockport is a little out of my area but there may be something in a sectional appendix?

For example, @Springs Branch was good enough to send over a part of a 1969 one.
In it, it states very clearly the process of delivering to / leaving Padiham power station, more precisely how to enter the exchange siding, who must het permission to move on etc.

It could be something like a sectional appendix might (just might) mention the process for going over the viaduct at Stockport.

I have had a look at my 1960 one but unfortunately it doesn't really cover the are of Stockport.

I wonder if anyone could have a look for you and let you know?

 

[Dai Corner]

Stockport is a little out of my area but there may be something in a sectional appendix?

For example, @Springs Branch was good enough to send over a part of a 1969 one.
In it, it states very clearly the process of delivering to / leaving Padiham power station, more precisely how to enter the exchange siding, who must het permission to move on etc.

It could be something like a sectional appendix might (just might) mention the process for going over the viaduct at Stockport.

I have had a look at my 1960 one but unfortunately it doesn't really cover the are of Stockport.

I wonder if anyone could have a look for you and let you know?

You'd probably need to look at the Act authorising construction of the line and any subsequent legislation for a definitive answer.

 

[pdeaves]

Stockport is a little out of my area but there may be something in a sectional appendix?

For example, @Springs Branch was good enough to send over a part of a 1969 one.
In it, it states very clearly the process of delivering to / leaving Padiham power station, more precisely how to enter the exchange siding, who must het permission to move on etc.

It could be something like a sectional appendix might (just might) mention the process for going over the viaduct at Stockport.

I have had a look at my 1960 one but unfortunately it doesn't really cover the are of Stockport.

I wonder if anyone could have a look for you and let you know?

If true, the solution would be in the timetable and having appropriate calls, rather than a 'rules and regulations' thing. Each passenger call would be treated in the same way as every other.

 

[Graham H]

Clearly a typo but this months Railway Magazine has the Queen being hauled by Jubilee Alberta in October 1968 ! Has to be 1967 as even I knew steam stopped in August of that year and looking it up, Alberta was already bean tins by then. Of course its an error as most people reading such magazines would know steam stopped following the 15 guinea special in August but had they stated it was, lets say 1965, then its not such an obvious error and I personally would be none the wiser. Of course I expect RM to add this to its error and correction column next month but I think the point is that RM is regarded as a long running professional magazine and used as a research tool on the basis of accuracy but sadly the standard of proof reading seems to have declined.
I should have added the journey was in connection with the Tyne tunnel opening so I would have got that date wrong too in a quiz if I believed RM as the tunnel opened in 1967. Even Wikipedia has the right date for that !

 

[jfollows]

Yes, RM neither responded to my email nor corrected their error when I brought something to their attention, so I simply no longer believe anything they print.
MR on the other hand sent me a detailed and polite response which explained why they were right (on a completely different subject), and published both my letter and their response in a subsequent edition.

 

[geoffk]

All too common now, with tight deadlines, the desire to be first on the shelves and lack of time for proof-reading.

 

[Graham H]

All too common now, with tight deadlines, the desire to be first on the shelves and lack of time for proof-reading.

I know but surely anyone that typed that in must have questioned it. After all August 1968 is one of the major dates known by even the most novice enthusiast ?

 

[30907]

August 1968 is one of the major dates known by even the most novice enthusiast ?

Not sure about that - steam enthusiast perhaps, but even then you have to be at least 60 for the date to have imprinted itself on your memory.

But I agree, the standard of prove reeding has slipped...

 

[Magdalia]

Clearly a typo but this months Railway Magazine has the Queen being hauled by Jubilee Alberta in October 1968 !

There's an underlying fact there overlaid by two errors.

45562 Alberta was the last steam loco to haul a Royal Train, but the date was 30 May 1967 and the train was for the Duke of Edinburgh, not HM the Queen. It was part of a tour of Yorkshire for engagements relating to the Duke of Edinburgh's Award Scheme.

The last steam loco to be involved with a Royal Train for HM the Queen was 62005, but only for night heat not haulage, the night before the 1967 Maundy service at Durham.

I should have added the journey was in connection with the Tyne tunnel opening so I would have got that date wrong too in a quiz if I believed RM as the tunnel opened in 1967. Even Wikipedia has the right date for that !

The Royal Train loco for the Tyne Tunnel opening was D1985. The wikipedia 19 October 1967 date is correct, though various other sources do have wrong dates.

 

[Bevan Price]

Is there any truth in the often-quoted statement that any passenger train that uses the Stockport viaduct must stop in Stockport station? Did any kind of covenant saying this, or anything vaguely similar, ever exist, or is it just made up?

Incorrect. I have been on trains that ran non-stop (as booked) between Macclesfield and Manchester Piccadilly in the early years post-electrification.
There were also a few Buxton line services booked non-stop through Stockport.

 

[Recessio]

I've heard a few times that upon privatisation the Waterloo & City was sold from BR to LT for £1 (allegedly the minimum price of a contract under English law), but have never actually been able to find a source confirming this.

 

[Andy873]

I've heard a few times that upon privatisation the Waterloo & City was sold from BR to LT for £1 (allegedly the minimum price of a contract under English law), but have never actually been able to find a source confirming this.

I have a similar example, Martholme viaduct, offered for sale by BR for just £1, and a grant of £70,000 to go with it - however it then becomes your responsibility! In this case it is cited in my L&Y society book about my old branch line - maybe there's a book quoting it for yours?

Back to wrong facts...

Only yesterday I found a newspaper article stating Padiham power station was closing on Thursday 30th September 1993, this confirms what someone else (who has a long record of events at the power station) told me earlier this year. All other sources state it closed 31st March 1993 - wrong!

The power station closure date is important because what was left of the branch line served it.

Andy.

 

[py_megapixel]

Incorrect. I have been on trains that ran non-stop (as booked) between Macclesfield and Manchester Piccadilly in the early years post-electrification.
There were also a few Buxton line services booked non-stop through Stockport.

Yes, in practice there have been non-stop services (even fairly recently, CrossCountry ran a few).

Is it that the rule is simply ignored in practice, or does it not exist at all?

 

[jfollows]

Yes, in practice there have been non-stop services (even fairly recently, CrossCountry ran a few).

Is it that the rule is simply ignored in practice, or does it not exist at all?

Agreed, this one is like the gopher, every time it gets bashed on the head it pops up again.
For example, immediately prior to Covid in the December 2019 timetable, 2H99 07:29 Alderley Edge to Piccadilly didn't stop at Stockport, column 40 below. There have been rush hour Buxton line trains which didn't call, and Cross Country used to have regular trains which didn't stop (xx.27 from Manchester if my memory is correct) which I had to know about because if I don't want to hang around at Piccadilly for the next Wilmslow train I sometimes hop on a fast train to Stockport to wait there instead.

The 2H99 one and a couple of others were just because of squeezing trains into the busy timetable following the 2018 timetable recast. A good while ago the Manchester Pullman didn't stop at Stockport on some of its runs and was sometimes booked to go through Stockport and other times booked to use the Styal line, it depended on the clash with the stopping service.
A couple of weeks ago I went Wilmslow-Manchester non-stop through Stockport on a booked service, albeit one of the additional services with a 90+Mark 3 stock, but anyway it was not booked to stop and didn't.
PS If column 37 above confuses you, don't worry, it's just a ramification of the software used to create the PDF working timetable and shows a time for 1B66 06:53 Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes in the up direction which it shouldn't.

Incorrect. I have been on trains that ran non-stop (as booked) between Macclesfield and Manchester Piccadilly in the early years post-electrification.
There were also a few Buxton line services booked non-stop through Stockport.

1H42 from the 6/5/68 to 4/5/69 timetable, 16:00 Euston-Manchester ran non-stop from Macclesfield to Manchester. Went past my house at the time in Poynton!
In that timetable, as well as some Pullman services, there was an up morning Manchester-Macclesfield non-stop (to Euston) and a good number of commuter services which didn't call at Stockport.

EDIT Also, in the timetable immediately before the 2018 recast, there was 2K70 07:32 Piccadilly-Macclesfield which ran non-stop (07:53 into Macclesfield) on a service which used to run as ECS (5H19 in the same times in 2014), and was booked to run non-stop through platform 1 at Stockport.

 

[matchmaker]

There's an underlying fact there overlaid by two errors.

45562 Alberta was the last steam loco to haul a Royal Train, but the date was 30 May 1967 and the train was for the Duke of Edinburgh, not HM the Queen. It was part of a tour of Yorkshire for engagements relating to the Duke of Edinburgh's Award Scheme.

The last steam loco to be involved with a Royal Train for HM the Queen was 62005, but only for night heat not haulage, the night before the 1967 Maundy service at Durham.




The Royal Train loco for the Tyne Tunnel opening was D1985. The wikipedia 19 October 1967 date is correct, though various other sources do have wrong dates.

Both Princess Elizabeth and Duchess of Sutherland have hauled the Royal Train in recent years.

 

[D6968]

Both Princess Elizabeth and Duchess of Sutherland have hauled the Royal Train in recent years.

As have 6024 and 70000.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I've heard a few times that upon privatisation the Waterloo & City was sold from BR to LT for £1 (allegedly the minimum price of a contract under English law), but have never actually been able to find a source confirming this.

The sale was mentioned at an Open Day at the depot at Waterloo, but I can't remember when said Open Day took place and Google isn't helping.

That said, a look at London Underground's Accounts for 1995 (available on the Companies House website) shows the transfer as having taken place with effect from 2nd April 1994. The relevant section is on page 20 of the PDF, but sadly I can't do a direct link.