Appalling: Rules of travel for under 18s - TfL

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the seat one is intended to mean give up your seat to just anyone, I suspect they just omitted "who needs it more than you" - which is something anyone should do regardless of age. Though I could see a case, like rail staff travel, where a young person travelling free does have less claim to a seat than a paying passenger or older person who may need it more.

But that matter of slightly iffy wording aside, I can't see why anyone would have an issue with this unless they were themselves not complying to it, and it seems a reasonable list of requests for all passengers, not just young people. In Germany it might well be posted as "Hausregel" (house rules) at the door - lots of places do that. It's also a common Dutch thing, and I'm fairly sure at least one of the Abellio TOCs does it too.

I think on balance I would post it as "house rules" and have at the bottom that adults may be prosecuted if they don't comply but young people may lose their free travel. The law does mean the consequence needs to be different.

 

[43066]

The law does mean the consequence needs to be different.

Not really? There’s nothing to stop under 18s being prosecuted other than TOC policy.

EDIT: I would agree with a “house rules” type document aimed at all passengers, and rigorously enforced! Sadly it will never happen when, as we all know, BTP are so thinly stretched and TOCs can’t even enforce against ticketless travel properly.

 

[Jim the Jim]

These kinds of rules are posted all over the network and apply to people of all ages. If TfL have a reason to summarise the rules specifically for under-18s, they need to make it clear that they are subject to the same rules as everybody else, and that means not leaving out anything important.

 

[XAM2175]

The way you are referring to children does make you seem rather stern, intolerant and somewhat resentful - a bit of an "in my day" type. This paragraph itself speaks volumes of the attitude of some "old world" middle-aged people. I mean, the way you've referred to me taking issue with this as having "a tantrum" in itself is very condescending.

I haven't made any assumptions about you - rather, I've been very careful not to do just that as this whole thread comes from my dislike of stereotypes and assumptions ...

Did you not, earlier this year, describe the rail staff strikes as causing trains to be cancelled as a result of "tantrums in the messroom"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really? There’s nothing to stop under 18s being prosecuted other than TOC policy.

There is. Children under 10 cannot be prosecuted, they are under the age of criminal responsibility.

 

[43066]

There is. Children under 10 cannot be prosecuted, they are under the age of criminal responsibility.

Yes I’m aware of that, but there’s nothing other than policy to prevent people between ten and eighteen being prosecuted.

There will be vanishingly few under 10s travelling unaccompanied, and unaccompanied minors are who these guidelines are aimed at.

 

[norbitonflyer]

You're young, so you're expected to give up your seat for over 18s. Tosh. For an old lady or pregnant woman, sure, but not for just anyone purely because they're an adult and the child isn't.

What if you're a pregnant 17 year old?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if you're a pregnant 17 year old?

It's the youth version of the RUK Standard Minority again...

In all seriousness, de minimis non curat lex. If something like this doesn't quite fit the rules, reasonableness and common sense tend to solve it.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Geez some people think they're so entitled. I think the OP is overreacting somewhat. Free travel is a perk, not an entitlement. Who do you think is paying for your free travel?

Youngsters today

 

[Dave W]

It's the youth version of the RUK Standard Minority again...

But what if this pregnant 17 year old is deaf, in a wheelchair and can't go more than half an hour without wetting themselves eh? EH!?

Geez some people think they're so entitled. I think the OP is overreacting somewhat. Free travel is a perk, not an entitlement. Who do you think is paying for your free travel?

Youngsters today

Think this might be a bit too obvious to get any nibbles.

 

[zwk500]

Geez some people think they're so entitled. I think the OP is overreacting somewhat. Free travel is a perk, not an entitlement. Who do you think is paying for your free travel?

The rules are phrased such that they apply to any under-18 year old, not just those travelling on free passes. Or do non-resident U18s now get free travel on TfL?

Youngsters today

Under 18s don't know whats coming. Wait until they're in their 20s and they find out just how stacked the job market, housing market, political system is stacked against them.

 

[Domh245]

The rules are phrased such that they apply to any under-18 year old, not just those travelling on free passes. Or do non-resident U18s now get free travel on TfL?

They may be phrased that way, but the fact that these rules appear under the fares section of the TfL website, and refer to removal of concessions & Zip cards makes it fairly clear that it's only relevant if you're travelling using those products. If you're a hypothetical 12 year old out-of-towner without a Zip card, then there's no way to enforce (and thus, no need to follow) these rules. Real Mountain out of Molehill moment this..

Interestingly, I found the original press release that accompanied these rules and the introduction of Zip, clearly it was felt by one Mr B. Johnson that this would be solving some sort of problem...

All young people must now touch in on their journeys with a valid Oyster photocard to benefit from free travel.

["This measure will make enforcement of the free travel concession easier"
May of London [sic]
Boris Johnson]

This measure will make enforcement of the free travel concession easier

New rules on the use of free travel for young people on buses and trams came into force this weekend.
From yesterday everyone aged 11 and over who qualifies for concessionary travel must touch in with a valid Oyster photocard when boarding a bus or at a tram stop in order to travel for free.
The new measures mean that all young people aged 11 and over who want to benefit from free bus and tram travel must apply for an Oyster photocard.
Application forms are available at Post Offices across the Capital.
Mayor of London, Boris Johnson said: 'Most young people behave themselves on the buses, but it is important that those who don't realise that free travel is a privelege that has been paid for and is not their automatic right regardless of their actions.

Restoring civility​

'Making it compulsory for young people to carry a valid Oyster photocard and touch in for each journey, alongside our expansion of police numbers on the buses, is part of our effort to restore civility on our transport network, and halt the antisocial behaviour that can make travelling a misery for some passengers.
'This measure will make enforcement of the free travel concession easier and prepares the way for Payback London, which will see those young people who have their Oyster photocards withdrawn for bad behaviour given the opportunity to earn them back by engaging in Community Service.'
Steve Burton, Director of Community Safety, Policing and Enforcement at Transport for London, said: 'With these changes coming into effect, we hope that the thousands of young persons who enjoy free travel will continue to do so.
'I encourage the young people who have yet to apply to do so today.
'Application is easy and we will do our very best to process late applications as quickly as possible.'

Apply now​

Fourteen and 15 year-olds have been using Oyster photocards to qualify for free travel since the concession was first introduced in September 2005, and those who still hold valid photocard do not need to apply for a replacement.
The 11-15 Oyster photocard has been available since January.
Since then, posters about the Zip scheme have been displayed on the bus network and schools have been contacted to spread awareness of the changes to the free travel arrangements, which include mandatory validation of an Oyster photocard on every journey.
Anyone without a valid Oyster photocard will have to pay the adult cash single fare for their journey.
Anyone found travelling without a valid Oyster photocard which they have touched in or a ticket for their journey may be liable for a £20 penalty fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They may be phrased that way, but the fact that these rules appear under the fares section of the TfL website, and refer to removal of concessions & Zip cards makes it fairly clear that it's only relevant if you're travelling using those products. If you're a hypothetical 12 year old out-of-towner without a Zip card, then there's no way to enforce (and thus, no need to follow) these rules. Real Mountain out of Molehill moment this..

Interestingly, I found the original press release that accompanied these rules and the introduction of Zip, clearly it was felt by one Mr B. Johnson that this would be solving some sort of problem...

Just because the rules can't be enforced doesn't mean they should be ignored.

 

[43066]

Just because the rules can't be enforced doesn't mean they should be ignored.

Unfortunately to many it means precisely that!

 

[Starmill]

It's the youth version of the RUK Standard Minority again...

In all seriousness, de minimis non curat lex. If something like this doesn't quite fit the rules, reasonableness and common sense tend to solve it.

And it's not as if giving up a seat is a rule, unlike things like feet on seats which are bylaw offences. It's simply a polite request to let people who aren't able to stand sit down if they need to.

 

[306024]

View attachment 123154

Bit of an own goal by the OP there

But that matter of slightly iffy wording aside, I can't see why anyone would have an issue with this unless they were themselves not complying to it, and it seems a reasonable list of requests for all passengers, not just young people.
In Germany it might well be posted as "Hausregel" (house rules) at the door - lots of places do that. It's also a common Dutch thing, and I'm fairly sure at least one of the Abellio TOCs does it too.

Well yes, if it doesn't apply to you why get upset about it? I recall reading a long list of rules for train travel in Austria posted at a station once, many of which were about behaviour. Amused me that they felt the need to print it in English as well, but it didn't appal me.

 

[Falcon1200]

I wonder if this kind of thing is what is being encountered, rather than checks based on appearance as such (which I agree would be inappropriate).

I was challenged in the vestibule of a Voyager, ie not even in the First Class seating area! And the way I was spoken to made it clear the challenger thought I was not entitled to be there. But it has only ever happened once, and on XC at least catering staff do check tickets before serving anything, usually very soon into the journey, which is fine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was challenged in the vestibule of a Voyager, ie not even in the First Class seating area! And the way I was spoken to made it clear the challenger thought I was not entitled to be there. But it has only ever happened once, and on XC at least catering staff do check tickets before serving anything, usually very soon into the journey, which is fine.

I found it fun when people did that, as their reaction on being shown a valid First Class ticket was often amusing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Did you not, earlier this year, describe the rail staff strikes as causing trains to be cancelled as a result of "tantrums in the messroom"?

No, tantrums in the messroom referred to the reports of staff making other staff who didn’t want to strikes lives difficult, because that is childish playground behaviour. Speaking out about something I believe to be wrong isn’t.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Speaking out about something I believe to be wrong isn’t.

If you believe the polite request by Tfl to be wrong then write to them. Maybe they will take notice and reword it to not be as offensive (to you)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If you believe the polite request by Tfl to be wrong then write to them. Maybe they will take notice and reword it to not be as offensive (to you)

I'm not offended. I don't get offended very easily, and would have no right to take offence at something not even addressed to me. I'm just irritated by it.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'm not offended. I don't get offended very easily, and would have no right to take offence at something not even addressed to me. I'm just irritated by it.

Loads of things irritate me but unless they affect me directly or personally, I don't let them get to me

As my saying at work this week goes: "Let it go"

 

[CentralTrainer]

They got Vic & Bob in to do the first draft of the code:

Rule 1: No Arson - don’t be daft

Rule 2: No Perjury

Rule 3: Absolutely no Treason

Rule 4: If you’re going to thieve - no petty theft - just top crime thieves.
There’s a lot of arsonists about - not mentioning any names - but most of them are in’t The Cure

And - don’t dart about...

 

[Wolfie]

I've never seen such outrageous stereotyping in my life as on this page:

Rules of travel for under 18s

Young Person's Behaviour Code for travel on all TfL services

tfl.gov.uk

Let me quote it for you.



I don't think I can express how genuinely I angry I am having read this. Why on earth should these rules - don't swear or put your feet on seats, don't smoke or dodge fares - be dedicated in a list of rules specifically to Under 18s? That is genuinely the most stereotypical and anti-customer thing I've ever seen. Absolutely everything in this list should also apply to everyone else on the train, whether it's the 78 year old biddy popping to Gants Hill to see her sister, or the 35 year old business man travelling to Holborn.

Actually, the outlier there is "Give up your seat for others." What?? You're young, so you're expected to give up your seat for over 18s. Tosh. For an old lady or pregnant woman, sure, but not for just anyone purely because they're an adult and the child isn't.

I know a lot of you will think I'm overreacting, and a lot of you will comment on the tendency of teenage gangs to act in anti-social behaviour, but this has genuinely outraged me, and I will be writing to TfL to ask them why they think it is appropriate to list these rules as a specially designated list for Under 18s.

Shocked and appalled, frankly. These aren't the 1800s.

Re giving up your seat why should a non-fare payer sit on their ass while a paying adult stands up. Bloody accept it or walk - I'll happily pay less Council Tax. Fed up of entitled brats whinging.

It used to be common for bus companies' conditions of carriage to include a line like "children travelling on concessionary fares must not occupy a seat while full-fare paying passengers are standing", which from a certain point of view makes some sense.

Absolutely and so it should be.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Re giving up your seat why should a non-fare payer sit on their ass while a paying adult stands up. Bloody accept it or walk - I'll happily pay less Council Tax. Fed up of entitled brats whinging.

I won't respond with the same distasteful contempt as quoted, but I'll simply say that I never had an Oyster as an under 18 and paid my fares every time, as do most. The page is titled rules for Under 18s.

 

[Bikeman78]

It may seem like a major overreaction here, but what's really set me off is that this attitude is so common on the railway.
An example, I'm 19 now, but two or three years ago I tried to board a Voyager at Stockport, and the catering host just would not let me board at the first class door because he could not believe a teenager would have a first class ticket. He went bright red when I produced it - I hadn't produced it immediately because the stubbornness in me thought why the heck should I prove myself?

I used to have first class PRIV boxes when I was a kid. I enjoyed the look of disappointment on the face of many guards who were clearly looking forward to evicting me from the first class compartment.

 

[Wolfie]

It may seem like a major overreaction here, but what's really set me off is that this attitude is so common on the railway.
An example, I'm 19 now, but two or three years ago I tried to board a Voyager at Stockport, and the catering host just would not let me board at the first class door because he could not believe a teenager would have a first class ticket. He went bright red when I produced it - I hadn't produced it immediately because the stubbornness in me thought why the heck should I prove myself?

Now l agree with you there

That's shocking. Makes me think of that Victorian saying, "children should be seen and not heard."

Rubbish. There are way too many over-indulged under-disciplined vile little scrotes out there. Time that they get reminded of their responsibilities as well as rights.

 

[py_megapixel]

Re giving up your seat why should a non-fare payer sit on their ass while a paying adult stands up. Bloody accept it or walk - I'll happily pay less Council Tax.

Because convention with unreserved seats on trains is that they are first come, first served, except in the specific case that someone needs a seat because they can't safely travel while standing. You'll have to accept it or walk.

Fed up of entitled brats whinging.

Irony....!

 

[Wolfie]

The page is in the “Free and discounted travel” section of the website, it applies to those travelling for free and those that don’t follow the rules can/will have their free travel withdrawn

And so they should.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Now l agree with you there

Well this is the thing, I'm not for one minute disputing that courtesy and decency aren't essential, I simply see no reason to state that these are rules for under 18s when they apply to everyone. It's basically like them saying we're pointing it out to under 18s because they're most likely to be the ones complaining.

You will notice that among my many posts on this forum, I have never taken issue with wordings or similar situations because I tend to think doing so is petty. I mean, people take offence to anything this day. I had a mature member tell me he was offended because I told him a font was clearly not the font he thought it was. I can't stand people choosing to be offended with things that really don't matter or clearly have no ill-intent. But this just struck me as one of the many incidents where young people have been considered a nuisance or pests, and it bothers me.