December 2022 Timetable Changes

[sammyg901]

Birmingham trains on Chiltern do often leave Marylebone full and standing by my observation. Late evening can be particularly bad e.g. 2208 2 coaches 2233 3 coaches often go out with people stood down the aisles. However as mentioned by others they're currently providing the faster services for surburban stations at off peak times and I suspect by Haddenham and Thame Parkway / Bicester at worst they've emptied out. But this doesn't offer a great option for someone travelling to Birmingham who potentially has to stand for the first hour or so.

However I suspect passengers travelling the full distance at that time of night are few in number and it's not ideal providing extra carriages to carry fresh air all that way. Ideally the Birminghams would be fast to Bicester North or Banbury and extra semi fast services added to follow to cover the intermediate stops. This was what happened in the original "Evergreen 3" timetable but was gradually eroded to best utilise very limited carriage capacity and accelerated post-COVID to reduce the numbers of services operating

 

[Peter0124]

Why can't they have cheaper Avanti only tickets towards Birmingham then? To take those who use Chiltern

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why can't they have cheaper Avanti only tickets towards Birmingham then? To take those who use Chiltern

Because:
1. They are the fare setter for the main flow, so aren't allowed to.
2. They are the premium offering anyway, so aren't going to undercut Chiltern.

 

[43066]

The current discussion on this thread reminds of the numerous times I've had to patiently explain to the public / local politicians why it's neither physically possible nor economically sensible to have buses that are exactly tailored to the number of passengers at all times of day and at all locations along a route.

Indeed. It also reminds me of the pointlessness of the regular complaints about eight vice twelve car class 360s over the past couple of years (albeit this is now changing, both in terms of passenger numbers and train lengths!).

What utter claptrap. The railway is currently supposed to be trying to attract people back to train travel and you want to remove low priced fares?

It depends whether the objective is to raise revenue/decrease subsidy or increase passenger numbers. The DfT seem more preoccupied with the former (although I agree that both need to be prioritised).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. It also reminds me of the pointlessness of the regular complaints about eight vice twelve car class 360s over the past couple of years (albeit this is now changing, both in terms of passenger numbers and train lengths!).

The argument for rail is different from that for bus, because you can, provided you have one, couple another unit on. LM's use of 4-car sets on busy Saturdays was inexcusable, and LNR have fixed it (almost all weekend trains are now 8-car), proving that there was no need for it.

 

[43066]

The argument for rail is different from that for bus, because you can, provided you have one, couple another unit on. LM's use of 4-car sets on busy Saturdays was inexcusable, and LNR have fixed it (almost all weekend trains are now 8-car), proving that there was no need for it.

It’s possibly a slightly different situation on EMR as the 8 car 360s have generally been busy (and getting busier), but not unreasonably so, so arguing for a more lightly loaded 12 car seems a little unreasonable.

4 cars have also run, and have been pretty unpleasant on occasion, but this has been down to reliability/availability rather than to avoid accruing mileage/save money, which (cynically) is perhaps LNR’s reason given the higher reliability of their fleet?

 

[Bletchleyite]

4 cars have also run, and have been pretty unpleasant on occasion, but this has been down to reliability/availability rather than to avoid accruing mileage/save money, which (cynically) is perhaps LNR’s reason given the higher reliability of their fleet?

LNR very rarely run 4-cars now. But it was LM's reason - getting the 350/2s out to play was too expensive.

 

[12LDA28C]

Indeed. It also reminds me of the pointlessness of the regular complaints about eight vice twelve car class 360s over the past couple of years (albeit this is now changing, both in terms of passenger numbers and train lengths!).



It depends whether the objective is to raise revenue/decrease subsidy or increase passenger numbers. The DfT seem more preoccupied with the former (although I agree that both need to be prioritised).

Are you saying that an increase in passenger numbers does not raise revenue? I don't believe the two things are mutually exclusive. Unless of course people are evading paying a fare.

 

[Bikeman78]

Chiltern is considerably worse than pre-Covid with each service picking up many more stops; most journeys are around 2 hours now. Presumably they’ve been prohibited from reinstating shorter workings to High Wycombe or Banbury or such (I don’t know what they ran) so the Birminghams have to pick up some of those stops.

If travelling across London, especially a day trip, it can be desirable to take a faster Avanti service to get there sooner and for the better connections at Euston. Chiltern and LNR services do not address that. Which is why it’s frustrating that a full timetable would not be reintroduced.

At least one of the Birmingham trains stop at Gerrards Cross and Wembley! I travelled on it from Princes Risborough. It was a three car 168 full and standing.

 

[43066]

Are you saying that an increase in passenger numbers does not raise revenue?

At the margins, it might not if you’re filling trains with cheap advance ticket holders, and this is deterring people from travelling on more lucrative tickets who will have to stand.

 

[12LDA28C]

At the margins, it might not if you’re filling trains with cheap advance ticket holders, and this is deterring people from travelling on more lucrative tickets who will have to stand.

It's always been my assumption that TOCs make cheap advance tickets available on trains that are generally less well patronised to get more 'bums on seats' at quieter times of the day. It wouldn't make much business sense selling X amount of cheap tickets when they could just as easily sell those same seats at a higher price, unless they've rather miscalculated demand.

 

[xotGD]

It's always been my assumption that TOCs make cheap advance tickets available on trains that are generally less well patronised to get more 'bums on seats' at quieter times of the day. It wouldn't make much business sense selling X amount of cheap tickets when they could just as easily sell those same seats at a higher price, unless they've rather miscalculated demand.

Not with Northern - I can get advances to commute in and out of Leeds at peak times.

 

[td97]

Not with Northern - I can get advances to commute in and out of Leeds at peak times.

Indeed, Northern sell cheap advances on severely overcrowded services. Including pre-10am Railcard discount too (no £12 minimum fare)!

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for the discussion of the December 2022 Timetable Changes.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread or find a relevant existing one.

thanks

 

[class717]

Just seen TL will stop direct Bedford to Littlehampton Services from January

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just seen TL will stop direct Bedford to Littlehampton Services from January

I’m not surprised; they added nothing to the plate for London - Littlehampton passengers that already have 2tph from Southern, and I’d be very surprised if many boarding north of the Thames sit on them all the way to Hove and/or beyond.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I’m not surprised; they added nothing to the plate for London - Littlehampton passengers that already have 2tph from Southern, and I’d be very surprised if many boarding north of the Thames sit on them all the way to Hove and/or beyond.

They were always designed around London Bridge to Littlehampton which was a long standing southern peak flow for city workers.

 

[Verulamius]

They were always designed around London Bridge to Littlehampton which was a long standing southern peak flow for city workers.

Connected/unconnected with that, the fast peak extras from St Albans in the morning are now at 03/33, rather than 18/48. (Pre covid there was all four). This used to fit into the East Grinstead flows, rather than Littlehampton.

This may be a resulting change from the introduction of the EMR Corby Connect trains, spreading out the faster trains from Bedford.

 

[JonathanH]

Just seen TL will stop direct Bedford to Littlehampton Services from January

It looks like the train runs to/from London Bridge bays.

5N92 0547 Littlehampton Shed to Littlehampton
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C14411/2023-02-08/detailed

9N92 0605 Littlehampton to London Bridge
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L46123/2023-02-08/detailed

5W93 0809 London Bridge to Three Bridges Tl Up Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C14413/2023-02-08/detailed

5N91 1555 Three Bridges Tl Up Depot to London Bridge
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C14410/2023-02-08/detailed

9N91 1733 London Bridge to Littlehampton
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L46122/2023-02-08/detailed

5N93 1932 Littlehampton to Littlehampton Shed
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C14412/2023-02-08/detailed

But the effort does seem rather profligate. I got the impression that this kind of off-pattern service is exactly what is meant to be withdrawn to reduce the railway's costs. There is plenty of capacity between East Croydon and London Bridge to the extent that trains run in throughout the peak with seats to spare.

 

[swt_passenger]

It looks like the train runs to/from London Bridge bays.

[…]

But the effort does seem rather profligate. I got the impression that this kind of off-pattern service is exactly what is meant to be withdrawn to reduce the railway's costs. There is plenty of capacity between East Croydon and London Bridge to the extent that trains run in throughout the peak with seats to spare.

If not going beyond London Bridge why is it even operated by Thameslink?

 

[class717]

If not going beyond London Bridge why is it even operated by Thameslink?

Exactly

Originally this was meant to contribute to the 24 tph peak core service, which is now off the cards completely with this change and no Ashford services

 

[JonathanH]

If not going beyond London Bridge why is it even operated by Thameslink?

I guess that finding a 12-car 700 for the service rather than three 377s is easier at the moment.

It can run presumably without an OBS if run by Thameslink and sometimes taking work from one driver establishment and giving it to another is frowned upon. I assume the driver comes by taxi from Brighton.

Originally this was meant to contribute to the 24 tph peak core service, which is now off the cards completely with this change and no Ashford services

Yes, but 24tph isn't in any sense needed now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If not going beyond London Bridge why is it even operated by Thameslink?

To save paying an OBS?

 

[swt_passenger]

I guess that finding a 12-car 700 for the service rather than three 377s is easier at the moment.

It can run presumably without an OBS if run by Thameslink and sometimes taking work from one driver establishment and giving it to another is frowned upon. I assume the driver comes by taxi from Brighton.


Yes, but 24tph isn't in any sense needed now.

Surely it’s only a short time ago they attempted to transfer it TO Thameslink, but the full service pattern never ran. It can’t really have a significant effect on traincrew numbers.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They were always designed around London Bridge to Littlehampton which was a long standing southern peak flow for city workers.

Yes, so cutting it back to London Bridge shouldn't be an enormous issue.

 

[berneyarms]

Timetable pdf files are now online for the following TOCs on their respective websites:

Avanti West Coast
CrossCountry
Gatwick Express
Grand Central
Great Northern
GWR
LNER
London Northwestern Railway
Northern
Southern
Southeastern
South Western Railway
TfL Elizabeth Line
West Midlands Railway

 

[Jturner98]

Does anyone know what the LNWR 319 diagrams be after the December TT?

 

[infobleep]

Just seen TL will stop direct Bedford to Littlehampton Services from January

It actually seems to be from the timetable change in December.

Given it was transferred from Southern to Thameslink, it could be transferred back if they really wanted to.

Still During engineering works you get trains only running from London Bridge, so it's just something similar. Just that it will happen regularly.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

If not going beyond London Bridge why is it even operated by Thameslink?

Thameslink driver depot at Littlehampton will be the biggest reason.

 

[JonathanH]

Thameslink driver depot at Littlehampton will be the biggest reason.

Is there one? It isn't listed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/different-driver-depot-route-and-traction-cards.205085/ suggesting that Brighton drivers do the Littlehampton services, but I appreciate you may know more - eg a subset of Brighton drivers at Littlehampton who specifically do these workings?