N0G83
Member
Article on Twitter #12DaysofASLEF suggesting the need to end Driver Only Operation and retain Safety Critical (guard/conductor) person in addition to Driver on all services!
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ASLEF (Scotland) wanting to do away with DOO.
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Falcon1200
Established Member
Given that DOO has been in operation in Scotland since 1986, rather a forlorn hope. And of course, ending DOO is not a question of retaining Safety Critical staff, it requires appointing, training and paying such staff, not to mention making all relevant stock operationally suitable. Nonsensical political grandstanding.
I'm up for that! 
However, does that necessarily mean that the second person should take over door control?...
However, does that necessarily mean that the second person should take over door control?...
Kite159
Veteran Member
Especially on the BR era EMUs which I suspect don't have door controls within the passenger area, only from within the cabs, so even if they went back to having a guard doing the doors, said guard will be pretty much tied to the cab due to the frequent stops along the Glasgow suburban routes.
I'm sure SNP Rail will be delighted in hiking the fares in the Glasgow suburban route area to pay for someone to sit in the back cab to do the doors, doing away with the Ticket Examiners.
dk1
Veteran Member
We got no more for taking on door responsibilities here so swings, roundabouts & all that.
HSTEd
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ASLEF has held this position for a very long time hasn't it?
It won't happen, obviously
It won't happen, obviously
the sniper
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I'm sure you'll be equally vocal about pay rises for drivers taking on more responsibilities going forwards...
Is that what is being suggested?
Kite159
Veteran Member
How else will it be paid for, as I would imagine a guard will be on more money than a ticket examiner. Unless you expect the Scottish taxpayer to fund the extra wages for someone to sit in the rear cab doing the doors when the locals enjoy free travel once more.
I am against this, how is this going to work on routes like the Argyle/North Clyde/Cathcart Circle which currently use DOO, 318/320 stock and have frequent stops? I can't imagine having guards work through the low levels.
bengley
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Works fine on Merseyrail
brad465
Established Member
Could this be ASLEF seeing an opportunity to exploit the SNP Government in Scotland, who ASLEF might think are more likely to do deals with unions in an attempt to show up the UK Government (going by the fact RMT have settled with Scotrail and negotiations with nurses are more advanced in Scotland)?
Could you link to the original post? The only thing I can see on twitter on this subject is from ASLEF (as in the wider union), nothing specific to Scotland?
Edit: I can see that all of their posts on that hashtag end with a sign-off from ASLEF Scotland. Slightly strange as they’re posted on the main account and only some of them are Scotland-specific.
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
I know this was a rhetorical question but for the sake of the thread some of the TOCs which have DOO work are amongst the lowest paying in the country. The reasons for this are as much to do with the pandemic affecting pay deals as anything else, but it highlights that at this point DOO (or lack thereof) barely registers when it comes to renumeration.
theageofthetra
On Moderation
Or to be more precise the company council responsible for them having one of the worst pay and conditions don't drive any DOO services?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I can't see a massive issue with Strathclyde Agreement ticket inspectors, Southern OBSs etc getting e.g. evacuation training and becoming mandatory. They're on almost all trains anyway.
However, if they want door control back I'd be surprised if it happened.
Merseyrail have guards on very similar services.
I don't think it's a "go-er" but I actually have more respect for this than ASLEF/RMT wanting no additional DOO but being happy for it to continue where it already exists. You either think DOO is adequately safe, in which case more of it is fine, or you think it's unsafe, in which case you should campaign for its total abolition.
Russel
Established Member
Are these unions actively looking for things to pick fights over now?
Falcon1200
Established Member
Surely one of Drivers' main objections to DOO is being responsible for not just opening but closing doors too, the latter would have to change if DOO was to be abolished.
Indeed, still fighting the DOO battle 40 years after it was lost is ridiculous! What, IMHO ASLEF and the RMT should be doing is ensuring that if any additional DOO operation is proposed, the following apply;
No staff affected should suffer any loss of employment, grade or income (costs would still reduce as the establishment declined through retirement, transfer, etc)
An independent analysis of the suitability of any such proposed route is undertaken (by RSSB, perhaps)
On-train and if applicable, on-station equipment must meet laid-down standards
Every train must still have a rostered second person on board, but can still run if that person is not available due to short-notice disruption
We will soon have the ridiculous situation, here in Scotland, of electric trains at Neilston having run DOO for over 30 years, whereas at Barrhead, less than 3 miles away, electric trains very likely formed of the same stock, running to the same terminus in Glasgow, and controlled entirely from the same Signalling Centre, cannot run without a Guard. How does that make any sense?
DanNCL
Established Member
ASLEF can get stuffed. This has been in use safely for over 40 years in some form in the UK, there’s no reason to ditch it now. What will their next mad demand be, the return of a secondman in every cab?
The RMT campaigning to save their member’s jobs and get a fair pay rise is a legitimate reason for an industrial relations dispute. ASLEF wanting to go back to the 1970s isn’t.
The Strathclyde setup works, and should be a model for elsewhere.
The RMT campaigning to save their member’s jobs and get a fair pay rise is a legitimate reason for an industrial relations dispute. ASLEF wanting to go back to the 1970s isn’t.
It doesn’t work fine on Merseyrail. One of their (now former) guards got jail time for manslaughter for the death of a passenger after not doing his job properly. How many drivers have been jailed for the death of a passenger trying to board a DOO service? I can’t think of a single one, and indeed the only such death on a DOO service I can think of was on a tightly curved LU platform where an on train guard wouldn’t have made any difference.
The Strathclyde setup works, and should be a model for elsewhere.
Crikey common sense, DOO and unions! No way!
Very sensible proposal however I wouldn't have a second person on board but instead demand extra station staff who are based along the route to help in an emergency as needed, plus provide visible customer support.
I hate how the union and union members wave the flag for safety for not having DOO, saying lives will be put at risk. I raised these two points to a union member:
- How many fatalities have there been each year as a result of DOO? I then wait for a murmur of not much.... Then, I share that 250 people commit suicide each year on the railways. What if we moved the guards to stations and high risk points on the network to save lives. Very quickly they go quiet or they may raise their importance of being on the train in an emergency.... (see point below)
- In the most serious incidents, like train accidents. Due to the fact that drivers are at the front of the train and guards are likely to be wondering along the train, these unfortunately are the least likely to survive a major accident on a train. Therefore, not much point having a guard on board who may not be able to help, thus having nearby staff at stations is far more important in these scenarios.
Bletchleyite
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Was on a reasonably longer distance DOO Scotrail train some time ago with two TIs on board, they did a check, then both got off with no relief staff, leaving just the driver. A few stops later a wheelchair user (put on by NR staff at a major station) almost got missed. As the driver was locking up, luckily someone pulled a passcom.
Simply too many stations to have staff at every one 24/7 but I do wonder what is the prevalence of missed disabled assists is on their DOO routes.
Simply too many stations to have staff at every one 24/7 but I do wonder what is the prevalence of missed disabled assists is on their DOO routes.
bengley
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So it doesn't work well because one guard didn't do a good job? (Although clearly the passenger wasn't blameless in this case either but that's another debate...)
It does work well. Very efficient and fast door operations on Merseyrail.
The thing is that Doo is not as safe as you think. You would only hear about death or serious injury. When I worked Doo there were regular ish not so serious instances of people or items getting trapped but as it was sometimes someone jamming an item or themselves in the door to board late , they wouldn't identify themselves due to embarrassment or thinking that they might be in trouble. You just don't hear about it.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm sorry, no they aren't. Merseyrail is glacially slow compared to DOO metros the world over.
Numerous platform staff can recite horror stories about dispatch incidents on both Guarded & DOO routes, neither is currently perfect, I’m unsure statistically which is safer, but do recall there’s not much in it, on the regular debates on here.
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DOO is simple.
Somebody is responsible for the dispatch of the train. It is one of:
Driver
‘Guard’
Station platform dispatch staff.
There can only be one person ultimately responsible for confirming the train is safe to depart the station, and it is one of these three people.
Drivers may well not want that responsibility, fair enough, that’s a valid opinion. But them having responsibility is no different to any other human being having the responsibility, so long as the process is safe and the training & competence satisfactory. Ultimately it is one pair of eyes, one brain, and one process that is responsible. Whether they are located in the front of the train, in the middle / back of the train, or on the platform is irrelevant.
The process is clearly safe. If it wasn’t it would not be permitted, as it is for 3/4 of all rail passenger journeys in this country. As many people will remember, event the RSSB have conducted independent research which demonstrated DOO was, actually, safer than guard dispatch. I happen to know who presented that report to the RMT, and happen to know that dispute huffing and puffing, RMT actually accepted the conclusions (although they didn’t like them).
Somebody is responsible for the dispatch of the train. It is one of:
Driver
‘Guard’
Station platform dispatch staff.
There can only be one person ultimately responsible for confirming the train is safe to depart the station, and it is one of these three people.
Drivers may well not want that responsibility, fair enough, that’s a valid opinion. But them having responsibility is no different to any other human being having the responsibility, so long as the process is safe and the training & competence satisfactory. Ultimately it is one pair of eyes, one brain, and one process that is responsible. Whether they are located in the front of the train, in the middle / back of the train, or on the platform is irrelevant.
The process is clearly safe. If it wasn’t it would not be permitted, as it is for 3/4 of all rail passenger journeys in this country. As many people will remember, event the RSSB have conducted independent research which demonstrated DOO was, actually, safer than guard dispatch. I happen to know who presented that report to the RMT, and happen to know that dispute huffing and puffing, RMT actually accepted the conclusions (although they didn’t like them).
alf
On Moderation
40 years experience in the UK & around the world proves trains staffed by a driver alone are just as safe as guarded trains & of course less of a burden on tax & fare payers.
But ASLEF & many other organisations know that the SNP are a soft touch.
SNP always back down. I bet they row back or even abolish Scot Rail DOO.
When abolishing DOO drives Scotrail to even bigger losses SNP will blame the UK for failing to fund Scotland properly.
And therefore reinforce the SNP case for separation, SNP’s only real objective.
But ASLEF & many other organisations know that the SNP are a soft touch.
SNP always back down. I bet they row back or even abolish Scot Rail DOO.
When abolishing DOO drives Scotrail to even bigger losses SNP will blame the UK for failing to fund Scotland properly.
And therefore reinforce the SNP case for separation, SNP’s only real objective.
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