Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[DanNCL]

Obviously it being pathed as that doesn't mean it will be that! I'd expect a Pendolino can do 80x timings easily enough.

Considering 91s have managed to keep to 80x timings before a 390 should have no issues doing so.

 

[Skie]

Considering 91s have managed to keep to 80x timings before a 390 should have no issues doing so.

It’s more nuanced than that. The 390s can keep to these timings because they can tilt, but put an 807 on one now and it couldn’t. The WCML line speeds for non-tilting stock need to be increased before they can enter service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s more nuanced than that. The 390s can keep to these timings because they can tilt, but put an 807 on one now and it couldn’t. The WCML line speeds for non-tilting stock need to be increased before they can enter service.

Interesting. So these 80x timings aren't actual 80x timings, but are proposed ones that will apply after infrastructure changes?

I was surprised only one minute was added to Euston-MKC - when they used to put the old Mk3 set out on Pendolino timings I seem to recall it lost 3 minutes, not one (and LNR's 110mph timing is 33).

 

[800001]

I thought the quicker acceleration away from corners helped to compensate for the none tilt of the 805/807? And that they would be able to maintain 390 timings?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Notionally, the Liverpool Pendolinos are needed on London-Scotland runs to replace the remaining Voyagers under the wires.
80x will not go north of Preston, supposedly.
Do the new 80x paths have current (110mph) 80x section running times, or do they reflect the future enhanced MU speeds?

The Chester/North Wales/Shrewsbury services are now shown as pathed as a diesel locomotive Euston-Crewe and a DMU beyond, both at 125mph, rather than specifically a 221.
You'd expect these services, operated by 805s and on electric south of Crewe/Wolverhampton, would be the first 80x to start running on the WCML.
I wonder where they found WCML SRTs for a 125mph diesel loco?

 

[krus_aragon]

I wonder where they found WCML SRTs for a 125mph diesel loco?

Maybe some documents related to the Class 67s?

 

[The Planner]

I thought the quicker acceleration away from corners helped to compensate for the none tilt of the 805/807? And that they would be able to maintain 390 timings?

No they won't.

Notionally, the Liverpool Pendolinos are needed on London-Scotland runs to replace the remaining Voyagers under the wires.
80x will not go north of Preston, supposedly.
Do the new 80x paths have current (110mph) 80x section running times, or do they reflect the future enhanced MU speeds?

The Chester/North Wales/Shrewsbury services are now shown as pathed as a diesel locomotive Euston-Crewe and a DMU beyond, both at 125mph, rather than specifically a 221.
You'd expect these services, operated by 805s and on electric south of Crewe/Wolverhampton, would be the first 80x to start running on the WCML.
I wonder where they found WCML SRTs for a 125mph diesel loco?

Not planned north of Weaver. They will be post MU speeds, no one has set up interim running times that I am aware of. The diesel loco bit is the data, they will be 800 SRTs I would bet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe some documents related to the Class 67s?

I'm not sure 67s are allowed 125mph, and even if they were, it would not have been more than 110mph on the WCML.
As The Planner says, they are probably 800 times (though they have never been used on the intended 805 routes).

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I'm not sure 67s are allowed 125mph, and even if they were, it would not have been more than 110mph on the WCML.
As The Planner says, they are probably 800 times (though they have never been used on the intended 805 routes).

67s are allowed to go to 125mph with certain stock, I believe when the 2 67s were with Colas, they were used as stand-ins for the NMT on fast running areas.

 

[tramdan]

67s are allowed to go to 125mph with certain stock, I believe when the 2 67s were with Colas, they were used as stand-ins for the NMT on fast running areas.

They were, but only at 100mph with mk1 and mk2 stock.

 

[47550]

You'd expect these services, operated by 805s and on electric south of Crewe/Wolverhampton, would be the first 80x to start running on the WCML.

TPE’s 802s seem to turn up on the WCML often enough these days presumably on MAN - EDB services

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TPE’s 802s seem to turn up on the WCML often enough these days presumably on MAN - EDB services

Yes, but they have never run south of Crewe or to Chester/Holyhead/Shrewsbury.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Bearing in mind as well that Pendolinos won’t be leaving Liverpool. They will operate the second train (XX:13) from Liverpool once the new fleet and other operational changes are made to support a half hourly service to Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bearing in mind as well that Pendolinos won’t be leaving Liverpool. They will operate the second train (XX:13) from Liverpool once the new fleet and other operational changes are made to support a half hourly service to Euston.

Ah, so the one that's operating now is the new one, but just omitting the South Parkway stop, while the "existing" one has been suspended? I guess it makes sense as it's serving MKC.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Ah, so the one that's operating now is the new one, but just omitting the South Parkway stop, while the "existing" one has been suspended? I guess it makes sense as it's serving MKC.

Essentially yes, until the 807s are introduced. I would expect Liverpool South Parkway to be a pick up and set down only location once trains call there.

 

[hexagon789]

Bearing in mind as well that Pendolinos won’t be leaving Liverpool. They will operate the second train (XX:13) from Liverpool once the new fleet and other operational changes are made to support a half hourly service to Euston.

I wondered if they had indeed essentially swapped the paths around. That essentially the current service is in the path of what will become the new 807-operated service with the second service when introduced being the 390 service.

 

[Watershed]

Ah, so the one that's operating now is the new one, but just omitting the South Parkway stop, while the "existing" one has been suspended? I guess it makes sense as it's serving MKC.

Yes, hence why the Liverpools no longer leave Euston at xx07.

The Liverpool South Parkway calls will be pick up only towards London/set down only from London.

 

[Railperf]

I believe that is the intention - I haven't seen anything to state that isn't the intention anymore.

I can think of several reasons behind the current use of 80x timings for the Liverpools, but I don't which if any would be the correct one.

Perhaps one of the forum members involved with planning may be able to cast some insight?

Here is the first, of a number, of posts re the Liverpools running to 80x timings from December -

December 2022 Timetable Changes

The Avantis to from Euston to Glasgow via West Midlands seem to be back at long last! But retimed slightly later south-bound, breaking the connection with the hourly XC services to Oxford/Reading/South Coast, which is rather annoying.

www.railforums.co.uk

I travelled Eus to LIV return on an 11-car running to 80x timings. Quite a few slowings for TSR's, so the 390 was driven at normal pace and just about managed to arrive on LIV on time. The return journey was disrupted by late running LNWR service delaying departure from Crewe by 4 mins - pathed SL to Stafford (not FL as booked) so 11 min late at some point, but managed to recoup a fair bit of time to approach Euston 3.5 min down but then frustratingly held at red signals outside Euston resulting in a 6 min late arrival.
Analysis of the sectional running times EUS to MKC is 28.5 mins vs 30.5 mins - so the planners expect the 805/7 to be 2 min slower than a 390 on that section alone! Hevn't yet analysed the remainder of the timings to Weaver Jn. Doesn't seem to be an efficient use of the track. Planners are going to have fun trying to path the tilt 125mph vs 125mph non-tilt and 110mph trains.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes, hence why the Liverpools no longer leave Euston at xx07.

The Liverpool South Parkway calls will be pick up only towards London/set down only from London.

There was a 19:07 Euston to Liverpool last night.

 

[hexagon789]

There was a 19:07 Euston to Liverpool last night.

The 1907 is run to Cl. 390 timings. One of the handful of Liverpool services that remain so.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 1907 is run to Cl. 390 timings. One of the handful of Liverpool services that remain so.

Last night nothing was running to anything! Everything has been delayed nearly every day this week on the WCML.

 

[Watershed]

There was a 19:07 Euston to Liverpool last night.

That's one of the peak extras. The standard hourly path is now at xx43.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I travelled Eus to LIV return on an 11-car running to 80x timings. Quite a few slowings for TSR's, so the 390 was driven at normal pace and just about managed to arrive on LIV on time. The return journey was disrupted by late running LNWR service delaying departure from Crewe by 4 mins - pathed SL to Stafford (not FL as booked) so 11 min late at some point, but managed to recoup a fair bit of time to approach Euston 3.5 min down but then frustratingly held at red signals outside Euston resulting in a 6 min late arrival.
Analysis of the sectional running times EUS to MKC is 28.5 mins vs 30.5 mins - so the planners expect the 805/7 to be 2 min slower than a 390 on that section alone! Hevn't yet analysed the remainder of the timings to Weaver Jn. Doesn't seem to be an efficient use of the track. Planners are going to have fun trying to path the tilt 125mph vs 125mph non-tilt and 110mph trains.

390s very, very rarely make the 30 minute public time at MKC northbound. A couple of minutes late is the norm and long has been.

 

[RailWonderer]

I know I risk playing a broken record here but why did Avanti not just go for tilting stock? Tilting trains are still being ordered and it would have been less of an operational issue to have all rolling stock at the same performance levels to keep the WCML reliable and efficient.

It's already problematic enough when a 350 is delayed. The GW fasts being all IET and the odd 110mph 387 have done wonders in increasing reliability and efficiency without a half hourly 90mph Turbo on the fasts. I thought it was a no brainer to keep the line with trains of like peformance.

 

[hexagon789]

390s very, very rarely make the 30 minute public time at MKC northbound. A couple of minutes late is the norm and long has been.

WTT is 30.5 mins, with 1 min recovery.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

I know I risk playing a broken record here but why did Avanti not just go for tilting stock? Tilting trains are still being ordered and it would have been less of an operational issue to have all rolling stock at the same performance levels to keep the WCML reliable and efficient.

It's already problematic enough when a 350 is delayed. The GW fasts being all IET and the odd 110mph 387 have done wonders in increasing reliability and efficiency without a half hourly 90mph Turbo on the fasts. I thought it was a no brainer to keep the line with trains of like peformance.

I recall reading somewhere that improvements in engineering over the last 20 years mean it is not necessary for tilting capability to be added in order to achieve speeds over 110mph

 

[hexagon789]

I know I risk playing a broken record here but why did Avanti not just go for tilting stock? Tilting trains are still being ordered and it would have been less of an operational issue to have all rolling stock at the same performance levels to keep the WCML reliable and efficient.

Cost is presumably one factor, but I assume the long-term thinking is because the HS2 Classic compatible stock won't tilt and tilt will be phased out once the main InterCity flows are covered by full or part-running over HS2.

I recall reading somewhere that improvements in engineering over the last 20 years mean it is not necessary for tilting capability to be added in order to achieve speeds over 110mph

It never was, it was always purely for comfort. The northern ECML gives an idea of the ride experience at those speeds without tilt - as it operates to a higher cant deficiency.

 

[Watershed]

WTT is 30.5 mins, with 1 min recovery.

Not quite. It's 29.5 mins for 390 timings (30.5 for 80x, which most Liverpool services are now timed for), which rounds to 30 and 31 minutes in the public timetable, respectively. However, there's no engineering allowance until after Milton Keynes, and it's very rare for trains to actually make it in 29.5 minutes.

The lack of engineering allowance before Milton Keynes really does seem "optimistic" to say the least; amongst regions where discrete engineering allowances are used (rather than an extra 10% being incorporated into the SRTs, as happens on the ex-SR regions) I don't think there are any other lines out of London where you can go over 50 miles without needing to incorporate an engineering allowance.

That being said, unlike trains on the Up Fast and Down Slow, trains on the Down Fast can't get held for conflicting trains at Watford Junction, Bourne End or Ledburn Jns.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Cost is presumably one factor, but I assume the long-term thinking is because the HS2 Classic compatible stock won't tilt and tilt will be phased out once the main InterCity flows are covered by full or part-running over HS2.

With the exeption of higher maximum speeds, I don't understand why tilt is even considered on UK rails, given it's impacts on our already very restrictive loading gauges

 

[Pumbaa]

Not quite. It's 29.5 mins for 390 timings (30.5 for 80x, which most Liverpool services are now timed for), which rounds to 30 and 31 minutes in the public timetable, respectively. However, there's no engineering allowance until after Milton Keynes, and it's very rare for trains to actually make it in 29.5 minutes.

The lack of engineering allowance before Milton Keynes really does seem "optimistic" to say the least; amongst regions where discrete engineering allowances are used (rather than an extra 10% being incorporated into the SRTs, as happens on the ex-SR regions) I don't think there are any other lines out of London where you can go over 50 miles without needing to incorporate an engineering allowance.

That being said, unlike trains on the Up Fast and Down Slow, trains on the Down Fast can't get held for conflicting trains at Watford Junction, Bourne End or Ledburn Jns.

Down Fast departures from St Pancras East Mids don’t get a minute until approaching Bedford Sth Jn, which to all intents and purposes is only about half a mile shy of MKC. Granted though Hanslope as the next mandatory timing point is further on.

I suspect operators argued at the time that adding [1] approaching MKC is redundant and would eat capacity. Far better to use the multi platform layout at MKC to get most capacity out of the network and apply the time after.