TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Dai Corner]

The T2/T3/T1 saga simply illustrates that an integrated transport network is not on the WG agenda, nor is it likely to be in the future as responsibility is being passed down to a series of Regional Bodies.

This is the WG which apparently wants to take control of all bus services by franchising them, but perhaps that's a subject for a different thread. Do we know who sits on the Service Delivery Group and Strategy Board and what relevant knowledge and experience they have?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the WG which apparently wants to take control of all bus services by franchising them, but perhaps that's a subject for a different thread. Do we know who sits on the Service Delivery Group and Strategy Board and what relevant knowledge and experience they have?

Other than around Cardiff/Newport/Swansea and along the North Wales Coast most of it is tendered anyway, is it not?

I do recall Traws is deliberately not primarily integrated with the railway, which I think is bad.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have been patiently biting my lip and trying not to respond to ANY threads particularly. However, the current discourse is worthy of breaking that particular resolution. @markymark2000 hit the nail on the head when saying a laugh emoji should be employed

First of all, I have "no dog in the fight". I'm not a Welsh taxpayer. I also fully accept that the Welsh Government and TrawsCymru have done a number of things that are good, some that are bad, and some that don't seem to have logic. I neither wholeheartedly support nor castigate them. I have stated from the off that the T10 seemed an arbitrary route to introduce. The T9 to Cardiff Airport had no justification except a political need to show they were supporting the Airport. Such political considerations are, of course, nothing new. The saving of the Heart of Wales rail line in the 1960s is testament to that.

However, there is cherry picking and selective interpretation of facts that simply are not borne out by simply analysis.

If the Heart of Wales Line is struggling to attract passengers I cannot see that the answer is to attract walkers and cyclists by putting on more services with bike storage facilities. The train passenger statistics for the Heart of Wales Line make interesting reading.
https://www.gov.wales/sites/default...l-station-usage-april-2018-march-2019-672.pdf

In 2018-2019 2.78 million passengers were carried of which 2.6 million were through Swansea or Llanelli stations . The footfall through the rest of the stations on the line is 180,000 . The next highest passenger numbers are Llandrindod (population 5,309) with 40,672 passengers which outstrips by a long way Ammanford (population 5,411) with 19,934. This would appear to suggest that (a) the bulk of the passengers are commuters through Swansea/Llanelli stations and that (b) the link between the train and the Trawscymru T4 at Llandrindod is successful in increasing train passenger numbers through Llandrindod station.

This is manifest misrepresentation of statistics.

Consider why Llandrindod might have a busier station than Ammanford despite a similar population? That the T4 is instrumental in this? No. How about the fact that Ammanford station is located half a mile from the town centre, and is tucked away? It has no parking, has no facilities, isn't served by bus, and is peripheral. Llandrindod Wells is located in the centre of the town, has parking, and has the bus station next to it. Moreover, Ammanford has something that LW doesn't - it has a frequent X13 bus service to Pontardulais and Swansea (arguably the two main traffic objectives other than Llanelli) that goes from the centre of the town. THAT is why Ammanford's rail usage is so poor - a badly located station and fast, convenient alternatives.

Such poor and selective interpretation of the statistics is highlighted by two other towns - Llandeilo and Llandovery. Places with c.1800 and c.2000 inhabitants respectively, not on a TC route. The former, despite having one third of the population, has half of LW's passengers. Therefore, the argument simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

However the low footfall through the rest of the stations on the line of 180,000 does illustrate that providing 3 extra train services per day at a cost of £20 million would not provide massive increases in passenger numbers. The walkers could be provided for by a bus service interspersed between the rail services to provide more timed options throughout the day along with combined Trawscymru/train tickets. .

To put the objective of increasing the number of walkers on the train into context, the number using the Sugar Loaf train station (the station used mainly by trekkers and cyclists), in 2018-2019 was 708 . Not exactly a big number at 2 per day. As a cyclist myself I would not fancy dealing with a bike breakdown without the assurance of an accessible car to pick up the brokendown bike and carrying a broken bike to the nearest train station would not be an option..


How much would be charged for train transport for the bike and how many passenger spaces would be sacrificed for the bikes ?. The whole argument smacks of lack of research and lack of understanding of what passengers want. Passengers want to go from A to B and when they get to B have the option of onward travel if they need to. Whether this is by bus or train is irrelevent.

First of all, how much of the £20m is capital expenditure (e.g. signalling, passing loops, etc)? This level of detail needs to be understood in the first instance, before even thinking of how it would measure against the investment case for additional buses.

Again, the choice of Sugar Loaf is telling. Choosing Wales' least used station! Perhaps Prof Cole might have been thinking that it would be places like Llandovery, Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod that would be attractive as hubs where people might disembark from. Trains already have cycle spaces and it may be that 4-6 seats would be lost in order to accommodate cycles. Much the same as on buses although I have never seen cycle stowage on buses used in any way the same levels as on trains.

A Trawscymru service between Carmarthen and Brecon would in my mind be more use than a Carmarthen to Llandridod service paralleling the rail line . A Carmarthen to Brecon Trawscymru service could link Carmarthen rail station with the Heart of Wales line , plus link the Trawscymru T1 service with the Trawscymru T4 (Cardiff or Newtown) and the T14 (Hereford/Cardiff) in Brecon . It would also allow walkers to have more timing choices and joint ticketing where the service did parallel the Heart of Wales train line.

Carmarthen already has a link with the Heart of Wales line. The 280/281 runs every 90 mins using two vehicles. With low headways on the routes, timings could be improved. I have certainly ventured the view before that establishing an hourly headway would be advantageous, and it could be regarded as a TrawsCymruConnect route. However, as with many services, it has to provide both an interurban link, as well as local facilities (which require double runs to serve villages etc).

The idea of running it north, which drew @markymark2000's mirth, doesn't hold up to any real analysis. Correcting an earlier poster, there was a "bustitution" service that ran from Brecon to Tenby until 1970. This was reduced to short workings to Llandovery and they subsequently went about 40+ years ago (c.1980?). Powys CC did support a service from Llandovery to Brecon, using a 16 seater that was invariably empty. There are very few places en route (Trecastle and Sennybridge) - the latter is already well served with the T6 from Swansea and at an enhanced frequency compared to the past .

For years I persevered with the T2/T1 last service of the day through Dolgellau and through Aberystwyth. The normal situation was for the T2 to wait 10 minutes in Dolgellau for the T3 to arrive from Wrexham. No T3 arrives therefore the T2 waits another 5 minutes. The T3 may or may not turn up but the T2 would then more often than not visit the depot for a driver change, something that could have been done while the T2 was stood in Eldon Square for 15 minutes. The departure from Dolgellau almost always failed to meet the Traffic Commissioners requirement that it should be no more than 5 minutes beyond the advertised departure time. On 50% of occassions the T2 still connected with the T1 in Aberystwyth, which could have been improved by applying a 5 minute delayed departure of the T1 just like the T2 in Dolgellau. The Lloyds T2 drivers were brilliant in achieving 50% of connections despite the waits in Dolgellau. The WG maintained that the T2/T1 were not connecting services in Aberystwyth although they arrived and departed at the same time.

You may say persevered. You have spent the last SEVEN years complaining about a connection issue. An issue that has appeared in the local press on numerous occasions.... raised by you.

The interchange at Dolgellau is long standing - it predates TrawsCymru and the earlier TrawsCambria. From the 1960s, it has provided the interchange between what was the 2 and 94, and the 94/94A before that. Those are much longer established links from Crosville days, and it is that they wish to protect. It is difficult with the Eldon Square stop and clearly drivers do use their judgement in going to/from the depot. It was ever thus, and the "window" to try to ensure connections is always difficult - too much and it becomes a bind, but too little and it isn't robust.

The T2/T1 "issue" wasn't an issue before 2006 as simply there weren't the connections there anyway. Consulting reference timetables from the late 1990s/early 2000s, the 94A ran from Mach at 1655 and 1955 arriving in Aber 1736/2036 - the connections you have referred to so often were never in place in the past. That is historical fact.



As I said, I have no investment in TrawsCymru; I use it occasionally but, since the mother in law passed away, I have less reason to visit the area. WG and TC have clearly made mistakes and they continue to do so. The Conwy Valley situation is a bit of a farce, and I really cannot understand the rush for electric vehicles wandering through the countryside when their impact would be greater in the urban centres; crazy they have no electric buses in Swansea but will have in Blaenau, as an example. They have embarked in various studies by people like Winckler and Cole - some things get implemented and some don't. Not everything listed in an academic paper is truly workable; for every good opportunity for Bwcabus, there are many others that simply aren't cost effective. Yes, it would be great to avoid all diversions on TC routes to achieve/close some unscientific disparity between car and bus times but sometimes, the cost effective thing is to divert a bus to serve a village.

Note to @Bletchleyite - TrawsCymru doesn't compete with rail but it compliments it. The T1 has always extended into Carmarthen station, and the T5 runs through Haverfordwest to the station there. Through ticketing and marketing could be better - it can always be better. However, they don't compete - they just don't connect as well as they could but invariably, they do link into rail stations.

 

[Bwsbro]

One of the new green liveried electric Yutongs has been spotted today on the T7 at Cribbs Causeway - Currently tracking as Spare Ticket Machine. Unfortunately the photo on Facebook failed to show any identifiable information about the bus

 

[Dai Corner]

One of the new green liveried electric Yutongs has been spotted today on the T7 at Cribbs Causeway - Currently tracking as Spare Ticket Machine. Unfortunately the photo on Facebook failed to show any identifiable information about the bus

There are photos of Newport Transport 354 (CE72 YRM) on the T7 at Chepstow in the South East Wales and Valleys Bus Enthusiasts Facebook Group.

Edit: corrected typo in reg.

Edit 2: 355 CE72 YRL has been photographed at Newport this afternoon.

Newport Transport has announced that the T7 will use Bristol bus station from 22 Jan instead of the bus stop across the road. Presumably somebody has found the budget to pay the fees?

 

[johntrawscymru]

Do we know who sits on the Service Delivery Group and Strategy Board and what relevant knowledge and experience they have?

The Service Delivery Groups for each individual Trawscymru Service are chaired by the Trawscymru Network Manager (TNM, a Welsh Government/WG Official) and comprise of representatives from the Bus Companies running the service, the Contract Managers (the County Council responsible for the service contract ), any Council through which the service runs and Bus Users Cymru (including the appropriate regional Bus Compliance Officer who monitors and reports statistics on Service Performance/passenger numbers).

The Trawscymru Service Delivery Groups are overarched by the Trawscymru Strategy Board. The TNM attends the Strategy Board and the technical input to the Strategy Board is from Professor Stuart Cole.
The minutes for the Service Delivery Groups and the Strategy Board are not open to the public – surprise, surprise. The statistics on punctuality and passenger numbers are also not open to the public.

Both the TNM and Professor Cole are experienced professionals with many years experience.

A resume for Professor Cole can be found below
https://www.cymmrodorion.org/the-society/whos-who/council-members/professor-stuart-cole/

Professor Stuart Cole is the author of the book “Applied Transport Economics: Policy, Management and Decision Making” first published in 1987 . Details of the recent publication in 2005 and its reviews can be found below:-
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7DLACP3DPzIC&pg=PA5&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Applied-Transport-Economics-Management-Decision/dp/0749439645

The Book reviews are not brilliant but worth looking at.
A good review of his work on the Trawscymru network can be found below
https://utrack.com/2018/_reflections-on-life_/trawscymru-welsh-bus-network-just-brilliant/

In June 2020 Professor Cole took over as Chairman of Wales International Cymru and in an interview outlined the work on Transport Projects he has undertaken Worldwide. Unfortunately the site cannot be safely accessed at the moment but it is an interesting read if the website is corrected and the link is shown below.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Meet+Our+New+Chair+-+Professor+Stuart+Cole+CBE+https://walesinternational.cymru ›+Home+›+blog-en&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB784GB784&sxsrf=AJOqlzWTDck_r8wzhE540DdWHfYOcnsjNA:1673976462862&ei=jtrGY-KqNNXkgAaF07aACg&ved=0ahUKEwjiqbmjkM_8AhVVMsAKHYWpDaAQ4dUDCA8&oq=Meet+Our+New+Chair+-+Professor+Stuart+Cole+CBE+https://walesinternational.cymru ›+Home+›+blog-en&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQDDoHCCMQ6gIQJzoHCC4Q6gIQJzoNCAAQjwEQ6gIQtAIYAUoECEEYAEoECEYYAVAAWKErYImBAWgBcAB4AIABnwGIAZ8BkgEDMC4xmAEAoAEBoAECsAEUwAEB2gEGCAEQARgK&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

selective interpretation of facts

This is manifest misrepresentation of statistics.

Well, I quoted the reported figures not statistics. If I misrepresented the figures I wonder whether the Welsh Government (WG) passenger figures regarding rail station usage are wrong ?
Excluding Swansea and Llanelli stations is the footfall through the rest of the stations on the Heart of Wales line 180,000 from a total of 2.78 Million? If we assume the figures are correct then the statistic is that only 6.7% of the footfall was through stations other than Swansea and Llanelli..

First of all, how much of the £20m is capital expenditure (e.g. signalling, passing loops, etc)? This level of detail needs to be understood in the first instance, before even thinking of how it would measure against the investment case for additional buses.

You would have to ask Professor Cole to answer that question. I would have thought the whole of the £20m would be capital expenditure including the extra trains. The whole of the £20m could be considered as a possible investment for additional buses/charging facilities as Professor Cole has in my view not provided a case for the necessity of the extra diesel train services nor has he provided the expected revenue return on the £20m investment. Since .Professor Cole is advocating 3 extra diesel services per day perhaps additional Trawscymru buses could be diesel not electric which would significantly reduce the cost of the buses.

Perhaps Prof Cole might have been thinking that it would be places like Llandovery, Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod that would be attractive as hubs where people might disembark from.

it may be that 4-6 seats would be lost in order to accommodate cycles

Perhaps Prof Cole did think that but we do not know. Prof Cole has not publicised by how much the 180,000 footfall could be improved on by attracting more walkers/cyclists. If he is jettisoning 6 passengers for bikes, what will be the fare paid for a bike and what will be the revenue implications of losing 6 passengers in favour of bikes?

I am a keen walker, cyclist and canoeist. When I do travel a distance to indulge in these activities I almost invariably go with a group. The standard technique is to load bikes or canoes plus bodies into several vehicles and travel to the start location of the walk/bike ride/river trip, where the bikes or canoes and bodies are deposited followed by 2 drivers taking 2 cars to the end location where 1 car is left and the 2 drivers return with 1 car to the start location. At the end of the trip the 1 car at the end location is used to ferry however many drivers to pick up the vehicles left at the start location and return them to the end location.

The whole idea of driving into Llandovery, unloading the bikes in the car park and catching a train to go to the start of a bike ride is just nonsense. The only people who would use the train from Llandovery to go on a bike ride are people who live in Llandovery.

It was ever thus, and the "window" to try to ensure connections is always difficult

The interchange at Dolgellau is long standing

Those are much longer established links from Crosville days

The T2/T1 "issue" wasn't an issue before 2006

It was “ever thus” that certain things are “long standing” and “long established” therefore it is OK to change nothing other than those things that the WG for their own reasons want to change.
It was “ever thus” and certainly “before 2006” that if you have 2 Trawscymru services arriving and departing at the same time the WG prefer to remove the possibility of the 2 services connecting rather than taking action to make them connect.
We are where we are now in terms of lack of integrated transport and leaving things unaltered because they were “ever thus” is not an option.

They have embarked in various studies by people like Winckler and Cole - some things get implemented and some don't.

The Winckler review was completely ignored and its main recommendation not implemented. The Prof Cole review was commissioned 3 years later in 2017 to consider the main recommendation of the 2014 Winckler review but Prof Cole did not do this. The main recommendation of the Winckler review has never been actioned.
The Winckler review was completed in January 2014 and was ignored for 2 years until it was revealed in 2016 in the Welsh Assembly that it had NOT been published. The Winckler review suggested that the Trawscymru T3 should go from Wrexham to Aberystwyth and not to Barmouth. By 2016 the T3 was already, by default, operational to Barmouth.
In 2016 the WG actually blamed the Trawscymru Strategy Board for not progressing the Winckler Review suggestion to route the T3 to Aberystwyth and told the press that the Trawscymru Strategy Board had been disbanded.
Welsh bus strategy board scrapped - The Transport Network https://www.transport-network.co.uk › Welsh-bus-strate...

29 Jan 2016 — The Welsh Government has admitted it effectively scrapped a bus strategy board, which it was advised to strengthen.

However the Trawscymru Strategy Board was not scrapped. In November 2017 the WG were forced into commissioning a review of running T3 services from Wrexham to Aberystwyth . This review was supposedly carried out by Prof Cole of the Trawscymru Strategy Board.

for every good opportunity for Bwcabus, there are many others that simply aren't cost effective.

It is just a great pity that nowhere will you find a cost/benefit analysis of Bwcabus versus divert a bus service through villages. Prof Cole said a cost/benefit analysis would be done on Bwcabus versus the T3 diversion along the Dee valley villages, but he has not been forthcoming with the analysis. Prof Cole wants the T3 to go down the Dee valley villages, as the bus service did from 1966 onwards. Therefore there is no need for Prof Cole to carry out a cost/benefit analysis.
If anybody knows of any published cost/benefit analysis for any Trawscymru service or for any Bwcabus service could they please place a link on this thread.

TrawsCymru doesn't compete with rail but it compliments it. The T1 has always extended into Carmarthen station, and the T5 runs through Haverfordwest to the station there. However, they don't compete - they just don't connect as well as they could but invariably, they do link into rail stations.

I do recall Traws is deliberately not primarily integrated with the railway, which I think is bad.

Sorry, not enough effort is being made to link the Trawscymru network with the wider rail network, for example Wrexham General and Chester rail stations. Then there are the so called T3 “links” at Ruabon Station and the relaxed attitude to the T2 links with the London train in Machynleth. No integration means no long distance travel opportunities and complete reliance on the car.

Wheres the crying laughing emoji for this forum? You've got to be joking right?

@markymark2000 hit the nail on the head when saying a laugh emoji should be employed

It surprises me that there is no bus link between Llandovery and Brecon: I had to do it by taxi once, which cost £40, in order to get a T4 from Brecon to Cardiff but I would have used the bus if there had been one.

I suggested initially that Prof Cole should consider the cheaper alternative of a bus service parallelling the Heart of Wales Train Line instead of 3 extra diesel train services (75% increase) costing 20£Million. No it was not a joke.

Then after looking at the rail station figures I realised that there was no real case at all for a 75% increase in train provision anyway and therefore no need to have a alternative bus service parallelling the train and going Northwards.
I suggested that instead of the £20M rail investment that a Trawscymru service from Carmarthen to Brecon would be more appropriate instead of parallelling the rail line.
No this was not a joke either and was based on another forum member suggesting a link between Llandovery and Brecon would be useful.

As I said, I have no investment in TrawsCymru

I would disagree there. Everyone contributing to this thread has an investment in time, experience and knowledge in the views they put forward. Of all the contributors you are the one who has provided the most posts by far and you have a detailed knowledge of the history of bus services throughout Wales and the UK.

First of all, I have "no dog in the fight".

I would disagree there. I think you covered some of the "dogs in the fight" in your last post.

The T2/T1 "issue" wasn't an issue before 2006

You have spent the last SEVEN years complaining about a connection issue.

the connections you have referred to so often were never in place in the past. That is historical fact.

I have to correct your above statements.
My first post to the Forum was less than 5 years ago on 22/06/2018 regarding the proposed T10 Oswestry/Chirk to Bangor route .

I also at the same time covered a complaint made to the Traffic Commissioner previously in 2016, (before I joined the Forum), which resulted in the WG being forced to reduce delayed departures of the T2 in Dolgellau to 5 minutes as the 10 minute delayed departure in use was illegal. This is a historical fact that the WG were forced to reduce the total wait time in Dolgellau from 15 minutes to 10 minutes (5 minute connection window and 5 minute delayed departure).

It is also a historical fact that the WG subsequently returned to a total wait time in Dolgellau of 15 minutes by using a 10 minute connection window and 5 minute delayed departure , which removed T2 connections with 3 services in Aberystwyth.
All this has been covered in great detail in posts across the thread. The T3/T2/T1 connections in Dolgellau/Aberystwyth referred to in my complaints were in place in the past and have been removed in recent times by the WG.
I have complained of many issues on the thread in the last 5 years not just the a T2/T1 "issue" referred to by you .
My only interest on the Forum is this particular Trawscymru thread, as a result of my experiences as a passenger. My interest as a passenger is a practical not an academic interest. There are a lot of different practical issues with the Trawscymru Network that have not been addressed by the WG and that situation is getting worse not better.

Carl - I am a transport graduate and I can assure you that the issues of forced transition were well covered on my course.

I have been patiently biting my lip and trying not to respond to ANY threads particularly.

I do not think you needed to bite your lip. We all have opinions which should be aired otherwise there will not be any progress in getting the WG to provide an integrated Transport Network.

I appreciate that you are well versed in Transport as an Academic subject. I appreciate also that you have an encyclopaedic knowledge of Bus/Rail transport. I hope that your knowledge can be used to good effect on this thread to persuade the WG to provide an integrated Transport System that we all deserve.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Allow me to respond to these statements and I will take issue with further misrepresentations from yourself within...

I have to correct your above statements.
My first post to the Forum was less than 5 years ago on 22/06/2018 regarding the proposed T10 Oswestry/Chirk to Bangor route .

I also at the same time covered a complaint made to the Traffic Commissioner previously in 2016, (before I joined the Forum), which resulted in the WG being forced to reduce delayed departures of the T2 in Dolgellau to 5 minutes as the 10 minute delayed departure in use was illegal. This is a historical fact that the WG were forced to reduce the total wait time in Dolgellau from 15 minutes to 10 minutes (5 minute connection window and 5 minute delayed departure).

It is also a historical fact that the WG subsequently returned to a total wait time in Dolgellau of 15 minutes by using a 10 minute connection window and 5 minute delayed departure , which removed T2 connections with 3 services in Aberystwyth.
All this has been covered in great detail in posts across the thread. The T3/T2/T1 connections in Dolgellau/Aberystwyth referred to in my complaints were in place in the past and have been removed in recent times by the WG.
I have complained of many issues on the thread in the last 5 years not just the a T2/T1 "issue" referred to by you .
My only interest on the Forum is this particular Trawscymru thread, as a result of my experiences as a passenger. My interest as a passenger is a practical not an academic interest. There are a lot of different practical issues with the Trawscymru Network that have not been addressed by the WG and that situation is getting worse not better.

I did not specify this forum. I said that you had spent SEVEN years complaining about this issue and indeed, as stated in the Information Commissioners statement and your later unsuccessful appeal, you first complained to the Welsh Government in January 2016.

You have spent seven years complaining about that issue. That is the reality, and I don't know what you've achieved by that.

Well, I quoted the reported figures not statistics. If I misrepresented the figures I wonder whether the Welsh Government (WG) passenger figures regarding rail station usage are wrong ?

This is a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't question the voracity of the figures. I questioned your application of those figures in supporting your opinion.

You stated that if two places of equal population have differing rail usage, the difference must be the provision of the T4 bus service. Not once did you think to consider other factors, like the location and facilities at the stations or, more importantly, the provision of alternative public transport.

Perhaps Prof Cole did think that but we do not know. Prof Cole has not publicised by how much the 180,000 footfall could be improved on by attracting more walkers/cyclists. If he is jettisoning 6 passengers for bikes, what will be the fare paid for a bike and what will be the revenue implications of losing 6 passengers in favour of bikes?

Bikes are invariably carried free of charge, and if there is sufficient existing capacity (or even more with additional trains), then there is no loss of revenue. Professor Cole is suggesting that there is a sufficiently low load factor so that you can use that fresh air for cycles.

It does reduce your potential available revenue but the argument is whether that can be accommodated, be more attractive and still not overly constrain potential revenue loss. That's the same on ANY train and arguably when you put a luggage pen or a table in a bus.

I am a keen walker, cyclist and canoeist. When I do travel a distance to indulge in these activities I almost invariably go with a group. The standard technique is to load bikes or canoes plus bodies into several vehicles and travel to the start location of the walk/bike ride/river trip, where the bikes or canoes and bodies are deposited followed by 2 drivers taking 2 cars to the end location where 1 car is left and the 2 drivers return with 1 car to the start location. At the end of the trip the 1 car at the end location is used to ferry however many drivers to pick up the vehicles left at the start location and return them to the end location.

The whole idea of driving into Llandovery, unloading the bikes in the car park and catching a train to go to the start of a bike ride is just nonsense. The only people who would use the train from Llandovery to go on a bike ride are people who live in Llandovery.

This is a another misrepresentation of what I wrote. I clearly said that Llandovery, Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod were places that could be a hub where people would disembark... to get off the train. Perhaps getting on at Swansea or Llanelli or Shrewsbury? Travelling from more populous places to commence walks or cycle rides etc.

The Winckler review was completely ignored and its main recommendation not implemented. The Prof Cole review was commissioned 3 years later in 2017 to consider the main recommendation of the 2014 Winckler review but Prof Cole did not do this. The main recommendation of the Winckler review has never been actioned.
The Winckler review was completed in January 2014 and was ignored for 2 years until it was revealed in 2016 in the Welsh Assembly that it had NOT been published. The Winckler review suggested that the Trawscymru T3 should go from Wrexham to Aberystwyth and not to Barmouth. By 2016 the T3 was already, by default, operational to Barmouth.
In 2016 the WG actually blamed the Trawscymru Strategy Board for not progressing the Winckler Review suggestion to route the T3 to Aberystwyth and told the press that the Trawscymru Strategy Board had been disbanded.
Welsh bus strategy board scrapped - The Transport Network https://www.transport-network.co.uk › Welsh-bus-strate.

Again, this simply isn't true. Let me provide the summary of the recommendations of the Winckler report, verbatim:

The Strategic case for longer-distance bus / coach services:

• There is a strong case in favour of a network of medium- to long-distance, strategically important bus services that connect key towns in Wales and which complement the rail network. The network may comprise commercial or supported services. This is broader than the concept which informs TrawsCymru at present and its predecessor Traws Cambria.
• There is a strong case for the five corridors which comprise the current TrawsCymru network. The new Cardiff airport service should be explicitly included in the network. It is likely that the number of corridors in the network will increase, perhaps to 10-12 corridors, to meet its broader objective.
• The implementation of existing corridors and the inclusion of any new corridors should be based on robust business plans which demonstrate demand and provide for a package of measures to improve the passenger journey.

Key service quality features and integration

• TrawsCymru services should serve intermediate bus stops as well as main towns, but should avoid detours.
• The impact of intermediate stops should increase the journey duration by no more than 50% longer than by car, and ideally less.
• Reliability is paramount. Frequency and timetabling of services should be based on what passengers demand.
• Connections with rail services should be made where there is passenger demand for them but should not override the wider purpose of TrawsCymru. Where connections are offered, rail and bus should be closely integrated.
• TrawsCymru should promote and accept CymruConnect through-tickets, and action should be taken to improve the profile and performance of CymruConnect. Concessionary fares should be available on TrawsCymru routes.
• The use of low-floor buses with high spec interiors is a necessary compromise to ensure disabled access whilst maintaining comfort. The specification of vehicles procured in future should be based on market requirements, and the procurement process should be rigorous.
• TrawsCymru services need to address passenger facilities at bus stations and passenger information, which are part of responding to passenger need

Options for management, delivery and monitoring, and responsiveness to passenger expectations:

• TrawsCymru services should be delivered, in the short term:
  
  • a. On a route by route basis rather than as a whole network franchise;
  • b. Using tendered services where commercial services are not viable;
  • c. Including commercial services within Statutory Quality Bus Partnerships where such services operate. Welsh Government commitment and support will be needed to take Quality Bus Partnerships forward.
• The focus of effort in the short term should be on implementation of the five core TrawsCymru routes rather than expansion of the network as follows:
  
  • a. Service T5 (Aberystwyth – Cardigan – Haverfordwest) should be implemented as a tendered service as soon as possible;
  • b. Service T2 (Bangor – Aberystwyth) should be progressed through a mix of commercial and tendered services within a Quality Bus Partnership, ready for full implementation in November 2014;
  • c. Service T1 (Aberystwyth – Carmarthen) should be progressed through a Quality Bus Partnership with back-up tendering should commercial services fail;
  • d. Service T3 (Wrexham – Barmouth) should be progressed through a Quality Bus Partnership.
• Welsh Government funding for TrawsCymru services should be provided through a management agreement with the relevant local authority. Funding should be based on the business plan prepared by the local authority and other partners and could include support for passenger facilities, bus priority measures, marketing and information and customer care / complaints handling as well as the tendered service itself. The agreement should include performance measures for which local authorities would be accountable
• The TrawsCymru strategic board should focus on strategic issues with corridor delivery groups dealing with operational matters, on a formal basis. Both groups should have strengthened user representation.
• In the longer term, delivery via a franchise, either part of the new rail franchise or a freestanding bus franchise, may be desirable. Discussions about this option need to begin now.

I've left out the financial statements for brevity alone as they aren't actually recommendations.

However, I have highlighted those measures that were actually implemented - hardly being completely ignored. To be honest, the core network was simply the rebranding of the existing TrawsCambria network as was. Your statement that The Winckler review suggested that the Trawscymru T3 should go from Wrexham to Aberystwyth and not to Barmouth is also untrue - the statement is "I have concluded that there is sufficient evidence to support the continued inclusion of all five corridors in the TrawsCymru network. However I recommend that further work be done in advance of the introduction of the proposed T3 service on the feasibility of its operation to Aberystwyth rather than Barmouth."

She simply didn't say what you claimed she said. She didn't say it should go to Aber - she recommended a feasibility study be undertaken.

It is just a great pity that nowhere will you find a cost/benefit analysis of Bwcabus versus divert a bus service through villages. Prof Cole said a cost/benefit analysis would be done on Bwcabus versus the T3 diversion along the Dee valley villages, but he has not been forthcoming with the analysis. Prof Cole wants the T3 to go down the Dee valley villages, as the bus service did from 1966 onwards. Therefore there is no need for Prof Cole to carry out a cost/benefit analysis.
If anybody knows of any published cost/benefit analysis for any Trawscymru service or for any Bwcabus service could they please place a link on this thread.

I'm not aware of a CBA having been done. That the cost of Bwcabus would be £100k p.a. and the benefits rather minimal is pretty evident.

I would disagree there. Everyone contributing to this thread has an investment in time, experience and knowledge in the views they put forward. Of all the contributors you are the one who has provided the most posts by far and you have a detailed knowledge of the history of bus services throughout Wales and the UK.

When I say I have no dog in the fight, it means I have no vested interest. As I say, I used to visit mid Wales regularly but since the Mother in Law died, that has diminished. I do have a detailed interest in the area as a consequence, along with many other places. That I think the T10 to Corwen is daft is a matter of record but I don't feel the need to lose sleep about it.

I appreciate that you are well versed in Transport as an Academic subject. I appreciate also that you have an encyclopaedic knowledge of Bus/Rail transport. I hope that your knowledge can be used to good effect on this thread to persuade the WG to provide an integrated Transport System that we all deserve.

Now, you did find a statement of mine that does show that I am a transport graduate. That is true. I am also a transport professional, so having applied that learning and also discovering the commercial and operational realities of both passenger and freight transport operations.

However, I do not see how continued raking over a subject that has bedevilled you for the last seven years (T1/T2) or the routing of the T3 is doing anyone any good, particularly you.

 

[Llandudno]

Hmm..

I tweeted TrawsCymru this morning asking whether the £5.50 T19 bus ticket could be used on the train.
They didn’t know so they said they would contact Transport for Wales.

Transport for Wales then confirmed that the £5.50 T19 bus ticket is NOT valid on Conwy Valley trains!

What hope have the passengers and staff got!

Update…!

I have just received another tweet from TrawsCymru apologising for giving me incorrect information a couple of days ago!

£5.50 T19 bus day tickets can be used on the train between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog after all!

Interestingly the day return train fare is £9.30, whereas the bus ticket is just £5.50

So train out and bus back is £9.30
Bus out and train back £5.50

Let’s hope the TfW guards, RPIs and Llew Jones bus drivers know about the interchangeably!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of the experience, I would do train out, bus back, and would consider it well worth the extra four quid. But this is nuts - it really should be the same fare on both.

 

[markymark2000]

What has to also be remembered in this ridiculous scenario is that not only the link between the T2 and the T1 to Carmarthen in Aberystwyth was at stake but also the link to the London train in Machynleth..

Are you just making up passenger flows as you go along? People are not using the T2 and T1 go to Carmarthen for London services, nor are they using the T1 to Aber then T2 to Mach to catch the train. They will go via Shrewsbury and Birmingham.

These timetable changes are in the hands of a WG Official who chairs all of the individual Trawscymru Service Delivery Group Meetings. Lloyds simply bow to the WG wishes and provide a Trawscymru bus and a driver to operate the service which matches the connection requirements of the WG Trawscymru Service Delivery Group.

Are they though? Some of the commercial routes won't work like this and I certainly can't see the service delivery group permitting the recent T4 changes which mean passengers from Brecon now have a 20 minute layover in Merthyr. If they are permitting it, they shouldnt be in a job as they clearly aren't passenger focussed.

Other than around Cardiff/Newport/Swansea and along the North Wales Coast most of it is tendered anyway, is it not?

I do recall Traws is deliberately not primarily integrated with the railway, which I think is bad.

More is commercial than you think.
Lloyds have a few commercial routes (including parts of the T2 and T3 I believe) as well as a few routes from companies around Pwllheli.
Of course youve mentioned Newport, Cardiff and Swansea but a fair bit of stuff in the Valleys is commercial including Harris Coaches and Phil Anslow.
I think that some of Richard Bros and Taf Valley is commercial as well as First services in Pembrokeshire.
I'm sure Gwynfor stuff in Caernarfon was commercial until COVID.

There's going to be more but on a smaller scale.

Update…!

I have just received another tweet from TrawsCymru apologising for giving me incorrect information a couple of days ago!

£5.50 T19 bus day tickets can be used on the train between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog after all!

Interestingly the day return train fare is £9.30, whereas the bus ticket is just £5.50

So train out and bus back is £9.30
Bus out and train back £5.50

Let’s hope the TfW guards, RPIs and Llew Jones bus drivers know about the interchangeably!

Welcome to a world where it's 2 government run agencies and they still can't organise a Christmas party in a brewery. When will people see that Labour Run Public Transport is a complete failure. This is living proof of what will happen if more nationalisation comes in. Incompetent prats running things with no clue what they are doing. A flaming monkey could do a better job than these twits at TrawsCymru. Just a shed load of greed's sods leaching off taxpayers while providing nothing in return.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Welcome to a world where it's 2 government ran agencies and they still can't organise a Christmas party in a brewery. When will people see that Labour Ran Public Transport is a complete failure. This is living proof of what will happen if more nationalisation comes in. Incompetent prats running things with no clue what they are doing. A flaming monkey could do a better job than these twits at TrawsCymru. Just a shed load of greed's sods leaching off taxpayers while providing nothing in return.

Don't mince your words there!

Though I'd agree with you that politicians running the shop directly doesn't work. What does work is arm's length organisations staffed by transport professionals, i.e. QuANGOs*, which are often maligned but in fact very often good!

* Quasi autonomous non-governmental organisations - in essence an arms length company wholly owned by the Government.

 

[markymark2000]

Don't mince your words there!

Though I'd agree with you that politicians running the shop directly doesn't work. What does work is arm's length organisations staffed by transport professionals, i.e. QuANGOs*, which are often maligned but in fact very often good!

* Quasi autonomous non-governmental organisations - in essence an arms length company wholly owned by the Government.

Is that not what TrawsCymru basically is though. Arms length supposedly ran by professionals and the government just gives it the money to do it.

Same for incompetent prats at Traveling Cymru who can't update timetables on the national journey planner despite someone literally pointing out the errors to them and consistently pointing out the faults.

There's no accountability and no care for passengers. Every time I have brought it up with Welsh ministers, they say they have no plans to sort it as they believe everything is working. Incompetent Labour ministers propping up failing arms lengths companies because they don't want to admit that they are too incompetent to run things.

 

[WAB]

Lloyds have a few commercial routes (including parts of the T2 and T3 I believe) as well as a few routes from companies around Pwllheli.

I'd be interested to know which routes are commercial around Pwllheli? AFAIK the obvious candidates to Porthmadog and Caernarfon receive subsidies?

 

[markymark2000]

I'd be interested to know which routes are commercial around Pwllheli? AFAIK the obvious candidates to Porthmadog and Caernarfon receive subsidies?

Caelloi 3. Only Sundays are funded.
C&T/Berwyn 12 and Nefyn 8 are mostly commercial with some funding for evenings, Sundays and maybe some extensions.

Common sense has finally prevailed for the T7, it will now go from Bristol Bus Station rather than the obscure stop over the road.

Service Changes From Sunday, January 22nd

Bus stop change for T7 TrawsCymru and new schedule and operator for Sainsbury's shuttle

www.newportbus.co.uk

From Sunday, 22nd January, we will be introducing the following changes:

Traws Cymru T7 Chepstow - Bristol: all journeys on route T7 will now start and finish at Bristol Bus Station (Stand 17). The bus stop at Stokes Croft will no longer be served. Bristol Bus Station is located on the opposite side of the road to the current stop at Stokes Croft and offers a comfortable waiting area with access to toilets and refreshments.

 

[Bwsbro]

Llew Jones have announced on their Facebook page their intentions to pull the T19 service from the 11th of Feb
Termination of T19 Bus Service

Llew Jones is proud to serve travellers throughout the Conwy valley and are extremely grateful for the support shown to us by all users of the T19 (Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno) service.


However, due to a huge reduction in passengers since the COVID-19 pandemic, and no indications that the numbers will recover any further, the T19 has becoming increasingly financially unviable, and we have been left with no option but to terminate the service from 11.02.2023 to prevent further losses.


The decision to withdraw the service has not been taken lightly as we appreciate the impact that this may have on local bus users. We have been working closely with Welsh Government, Traws Cymru and Conwy County Borough Council to identify and develop a solution; unfortunately, this has not been possible at this point..


We remain committed to finding a solution that supports the best interests and needs of all parties concerned; however, if we cannot achieve this then the last day of operation for the T19 service will be Saturday 11.02.2023.


No other routes or services are affected by this unfortunate, yet very necessary, decision. The 19 service operating between Llandudno and Betws Y Coed is not affected.

Could we have a link to the source, please? Mod

 

[Llandudno]

Ah well, gets round the confusion of inter available tickets with the Conwy Valley line I suppose!

It would perhaps be better if Traws took on the 19 route which runs on the western side of the Conwy Valley and actually serves numerous villages en-route but extend certain journeys on the route to Blaenau Ffestiniog and offer onward connections to Porthmadog..?

 

[WAB]

Well that is quite the shock! Looks like there won't be any buses from Blaenau Ffestiniog to the north and the service north from Betws will be rather intermittent unless WelshGov intervenes...

I hear much wailing and gnashing of teeth coming from Bletchley




@Bletchleyite

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well there is the train, but I'll miss the ride back over the Crimea Pass.

I thought TfW had on order a set of electric buses to use on that route, the idea being to give an hourly service, two buses and a train in each 3 hour cycle? I guess if that plan is still there they'll just tender it. Passes are valid on the train so nobody will be stranded per se.

 

[WAB]

Ah well, gets round the confusion of inter available tickets with the Conwy Valley line I suppose!

It would perhaps be better if Traws took on the 19 route which runs on the western side of the Conwy Valley and actually serves numerous villages en-route but extend certain journeys on the route to Blaenau Ffestiniog and offer onward connections to Porthmadog..?

There's only 10-15 minutes difference in running time anyway, and it would be nice if they could combine with the train to form an hourly service. Pipe dream I guess.

Well there is the train, but I'll miss the ride back over the Crimea Pass.

I thought TfW had on order a set of electric buses to use on that route, the idea being to give an hourly service, two buses and a train in each 3 hour cycle? I guess if that plan is still there they'll just tender it. Passes are valid on the train so nobody will be stranded per se.

Not quite so helpful for the intermediate stations, and the service as a whole is fairly dire.

Have the charging points been built yet? If so, then you could persuade an operator from outside the area to take it on in return for subsidies on the routes to Porthmadog, Dolgellau and Llandudno. If not, dead runs from Bangor or Dolgellau will be the order of the day if Llew Jones won't play ball.

 

[Statto]

T19 is useless in it's current state anyway, 4 through journeys a day with no evening service, the service it replaced 84 was a evening & Sunday rail along the Conwy Valley when no trains ran

 

[Bletchleyite]

T19 is useless in it's current state anyway, 4 through journeys a day with no evening service, the service it replaced 84 was a evening & Sunday rail along the Conwy Valley when no trains ran

It (and the 19) quite effectively plug the gaps in the train timetable if you look at all three timetables together - put together they give you a service about every hour to hour and a half. It's ridiculous, and throwing away business, that they aren't run together like the 84 was. I suppose the issue there was perhaps the T19 being commercial - perhaps it will now be tendered and this will be improved?

 

[Statto]

T19 does not plug the gaps in between the trains, it runs when the trains run, & train starts earlier & finishes later than the T19 does, the only time it's useful is when the trains are off

 

[James H]

Staying in Betws-y-Coed in autumn 2021 we had a great ride to Blaenau Ffestiniog on the T19, a quick look round, then back north on the train.

 

[43055]

T19 is useless in it's current state anyway, 4 through journeys a day with no evening service, the service it replaced 84 was a evening & Sunday rail along the Conwy Valley when no trains ran

I thought the T19 (was X19) replaced the X1 when Express Motors went which ran daily and at least Monday to Saturday up to every hour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So a quick look.

Trains from Blaenau: 0624, 0835, 1137, 1457, 1735, 2027
T19 from Blaenau: 0720, 1025, 1320, 1650

Trains from Junction: 0530, 0728, 1032, 1337, 1629, 1923
T19 from Junction: 0913, 1159, 1453, 1818

That's a pretty good gap filler if you ask me. The 19 times are closer to some of the train times, but the 19 is a separate route serving the other side of the river, so it's only borderline-relevant as an extra connection to Betws itself and doesn't continue to Blaenau.

Yes, it could be neater (but then so could the train times) - but it's certainly complementary and not really competition (and the T19 provides both a more useful commuter journey into and out of Llandudno for retail workers doing the 9ish to 5:30ish). If only they bothered to show it in the railway timetable like the 84 once was, it would probably attract more passengers to both!

I thought the T19 (was X19) replaced the X1 when Express Motors went which ran daily and at least Monday to Saturday up to every hour.

The X1 stopped before Express failed, I believe it was killed by pass acceptance on the train.

Staying in Betws-y-Coed in autumn 2021 we had a great ride to Blaenau Ffestiniog on the T19, a quick look round, then back north on the train.

I'd always recommend the other way, as emerging into the Blaenau moonscape from the tunnel, and climbing steeply up to the Crimea Pass on the bus, are both pretty spectacular. Though either way it's a great route by whichever mode!

 

[Bwsbro]

The X1 stopped before Express failed, I believe it was killed by pass acceptance on the train.

The X1 ran until the end of Express Motors and was a good performing operation with a PVR of 4/5 in the summer. most Buses ran up to hourly between Llandudno and Betws y Coed with a more limited service to Blaenau Ffestiniog - There was a pass acceptance issue with the train however this was much more muted by the company’s closure in 2017

When LLew Jones took on the X19 they ran the service with a PVR of two with ambitions to extend some journeys through to Oakley Arms for T2 connections - However these were dropped

Just look at the T19 operation, buses are swapped mid joinery without any prior warning. The 11:50 from Llandudno & 13:20 has a bus change on a daily basis to cover driver breaks, why can’t the bus continue in service and the drivers swap?

Also journey times amongst the route is now much less desirable - Under Express Motors the first bus left Blaenau at 07:40 and arrived 08:50, The T19 on schooldays leaves at 07:20 and doesn’t arrive until 08:55 as it has to travel via Coleg Llandrillo - 25 minutes extra on a communitng journey

Same with the late journey back to Blaenau now not leaving until 18:10, not practical for those on office hours either working in Llandudno or at the WAG offices at the Junction having to wait over a hour for their journey home

 

[Russel]

It's a shame about the T19, but not surprising.

I've used it a fair few times, this is only my personal experience but the loadings have always been light and the time keeping sloppy.

That said, I don't think sloppy time keeping is unique to the T19, from experience, it seems to be a general theme when it comes to public transport in North Wales.

 

[markymark2000]

Just look at the T19 operation, buses are swapped mid joinery without any prior warning. The 11:50 from Llandudno & 13:20 has a bus change on a daily basis to cover driver breaks, why can’t the bus continue in service and the drivers swap?

During COVID, there was TrawsCymru rules that drivers couldn't go into the cab if another driver had just been in there making traditional driver swaps more impossible. Instead passengers had to swap buses. The same was happening at Lloyds.

It's a shame about the T19, but not surprising.

I've used it a fair few times, this is only my personal experience but the loadings have always been light and the time keeping sloppy.

That said, I don't think sloppy time keeping is unique to the T19, from experience, it seems to be a general theme when it comes to public transport in North Wales.

That's just Llew Jones really. It's not widespread from my experience in North Wales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same with the late journey back to Blaenau now not leaving until 18:10, not practical for those on office hours either working in Llandudno or at the WAG offices at the Junction having to wait over a hour for their journey home

Seems OK to me. Not a massive rush if you finish at 1730-1745 (as a lot of traditional small retailers will) or if you finish at 1700 time to pop into a supermarket for stuff to take home before the bus. If you're only going to have one evening peak departure on a particular infrequent route, somewhere between 1800 and 1830 is when you want it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's a shame about North Wales. Llew Jones was always a decent coach operator though their bus operations are perfunctory at best. However, after three scandalous collapses (Express, GHA and Padarn), an apathetic Arriva, and a raft of "not brilliant" indies (e.g. Johns Travel, Goodsir), you wonder whether there will ever be conditions for some decent investment and service provision.

(Note: I will say Lloyds are ok, whilst Caelloi and Clynnog used to be functional though it's some years since I sampled them).

The Conwy Valley provision between bus and rail really needs sorting out