The independent inquiry into allegations of sexual harassment and bullying within TSSA has now concluded.

[the sniper]

Its worse than a company doing such to a employee as at least they may have a ''Union'' to turn to for support, where can a Unions employee turn too, it's as if the bullies are aware that the victims have nowhere to turn for help as the usual avenue for help is themselves.

Fear not, union staff are usually in a union themselves or are at least entirely entitled to be.

 

[43066]

"A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one"

You started avoiding the point and started talking governments, police forces and armed forces. It isn't relevant to the matters at hand in this report. I don't think its anything to do with a "pile-on", but an honest appreciation of a specific report regarding what had occured at TSSA.

I do know what the straw man fallacy is, thanks! I wasn’t refuting an argument. In fact, if you read my first post, I agreed with @yorkie ‘s final two sentences expressing hope that these issues will be addressed!

I was simply pointing out that the issues in this report are common in many sectors which also “purport to stand up for various principles”, this is not something in any way exclusive to unions.

That's why it is regrettable- to put it mildly- that the usual suspects(ETA: for clarity, I'm not referring to anyone on this thread) are using this as an anti-union weapon. If anything, it is exactly the opposite, and shows good governance. Especially compared to, say, how the RMT management closed ranks around Steve Hedley.

I find it disingenuous how certain posters profess a concern members of unions (or their employees in this case), but only ever when framed in a way that allows them to attack the unions themselves: those same posters can often be found on other threads calling for unions to have their ability to take industrial action curtailed etc. which rather reveals their true feelings .

Personally I am disinclined to have much faith in the accuracy of a report that does things like treat men as the sole oppressor class (I am not claiming that sexual harassment by men is not more common), lists all allegations without any distinction made between their frequency, reliability, etc. , and especially not one that lists major issues like groping in the same list as something like a line manager being paid less than one of their subordinates.

The TSSA almost certainly does have a sexual harrassment problem - there seems to be enough evidence of that - but this report is not a good barometer of it.

The foreword, in particular, is written in a rather more floral and sensational way than you might expect from a supposedly independent and dispassionate report.

 

[Thirteen]

I do wonder if other unions may end up doing their own investigations in order to cover their own backs. I'm sure stuff does go on but hopefully not to the same extent as TSSA.

 

[Master29]

That's rather a straw man argument to make.



I'd agree and better than the RMT in my experience. But the RMT doesn't seem to have such a disconnect between the top leadership and rank-and-file reps. Some shocking details in the report.

"A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one"

You started avoiding the point and started talking governments, police forces and armed forces. It isn't relevant to the matters at hand in this report. I don't think its anything to do with a "pile-on", but an honest appreciation of a specific report regarding what had occured at TSSA.

Not really. Corruption is rife in the UK in most large organisations be it private or otherwise but you are correct that the point is concerning TSSA specifically.

 

[Bald Rick]

You have the floor... Fairly inevitable who would make the most of this news. More wood for the fire, heh.

Ive said what I think. For what it’s worth, the reps I have dealt with at the TSSA have been, with two exceptions, brilliant. Both the exceptions were there to look after themselves rather than their members.

And I also firmly believe that Trades Unions, when properly run in the interests of the people they represent (and when keeping out of politics) are a very good thing.

What IS new is that the TSSA are addressing them.

That's why it is regrettable- to put it mildly- that the usual suspects(ETA: for clarity, I'm not referring to anyone on this thread) are using this as an anti-union weapon. If anything, it is exactly the opposite, and shows good governance. Especially compared to, say, how the RMT management closed ranks around Steve Hedley.

Agreed.

 

[Dai Corner]

And I also firmly believe that Trades Unions, when properly run in the interests of the people they represent (and when keeping out of politics) are a very good thing.

The fact that they've settled with TfW without striking (and with minimal strings) speaks volumes politically.

 

[Thirteen]

And I also firmly believe that Trades Unions, when properly run in the interests of the people they represent (and when keeping out of politics) are a very good thing.

I've said this before but I've been impressed by Sharon Graham from Unite, getting things done and without sticking her oar in into political matters unlike her predecessor.

 

[Meerkat]

What IS new is that the TSSA are addressing them.

That's why it is regrettable- to put it mildly- that the usual suspects(ETA: for clarity, I'm not referring to anyone on this thread) are using this as an anti-union weapon. If anything, it is exactly the opposite, and shows good governance.

Aren't they only addressing them because after many years a victim went very public and wouldn't shut up? Even then it seems from the above that getting rid of the General Secretary was a PR exercise and didnt really happen.

Personally I am disinclined to have much faith in the accuracy of a report that does things like treat men as the sole oppressor class

I harrumphed a bit at some of her phrasing and I don't think she seemed the most impartial observer.
However the number and scale of the issues utterly overwhelmed any possible bias. What kind of culture must be accepted there if they were misbehaving in front of someone they knew was there to investigate harassment and poor management?!
And even if you excluded the harassment issues the management structure of the union is clearly ridiculous.
Be very interesting to see the auditors reports if they are called in. Getting drunk on work time on the work credit card isnt a good look and if I was a member I would want the GS's payoff clawed back from him or his mates who approved it.

 

[eldomtom2]

However the number and scale of the issues utterly overwhelmed any possible bias.

Well, my point was that the report makes it difficult to judge the actual scale.

And even if you excluded the harassment issues the management structure of the union is clearly ridiculous.

You misread my post. I am not defending the TSSA (or at least the parts of it relevant to the report, I'm sure there is much worthwhile work they do). They clearly have major issues.

 

[43066]

Getting drunk on work time on the work credit card isnt a good look

You’ve never worked in the legal profession, or in professional/financial services, have you?

It generally isn’t acceptable on the railway.

 

[Meerkat]

The fact that they've settled with TfW without striking (and with minimal strings) speaks volumes politically.

Maybe. But IF they were concentrating on politics then settling with the Labour run government and its effectively nationalised railway whilst fighting the Tory run Westminster and its slightly privatised railway would make sense.

You’ve never worked in the legal profession, or in financial services, have you?

Actually I have. But that's shareholders money not members' subs
And the TSSA read less like work piss ups and more like stereotype rugby club boorishness.

 

[Thirteen]

Why on earth was Manuel Cortes still on the TSSA payroll after he was to retire. To me that stinks of corruption at the top.

 

[godfreycomplex]

It’s telling that the first reaction of a lot of people is try and find as many holes in the argument as possible, rather than try and find the validity in the experiences of the people who have informed this report.

I don’t necessarily believe this is malicious, people don’t like to believe the worst about aspects of the society they live in (and a union’s no more than that in this case, an aspect of the society it’s in), and I don’t deny that’s difficult, it’s difficult for me too, but to do this rather than discuss the vile act and consequences of misogyny and all forms of discrimination is tantamount to refusing a bottle of water when you’re dying of thirst because you don’t like the colour of the label (or to use a railway analogy, continuing to insist everyone around you works 20 hour days because you didn’t like the font the Hidden report was printed in) . This is why a lot of these behaviours go unchallenged, if you’ve got to run the gauntlet of being shouted down, it becomes too daunting a prospect to raise an issue. Time and time and time again we’ve seen this, and it’s time for a change.

Also on the subject of the tone of the report all I will say is A - some of you must have been reading a very differently worded report to me because that’s not my view of it at all and B - again, the bottle of water point. And also most reports and tribunals don’t tend to start with a list of all the faux pas that the person writing those reports and tribunals have ever made, and it’s unreasonable to expect that they will.

When all’s said and done misogyny (and indeed other forms of discrimination) remain a disproportionately large problem for society in this country, we all suffer directly because of it, and anything that stamps it out should be welcomed and encouraged.

 

[eldomtom2]

Also on the subject of the tone of the report all I will say is A - some of you must have been reading a very differently worded report to me because that’s not my view of it at all and B - again, the bottle of water point. And also most reports and tribunals don’t tend to start with a list of all the faux pas that the person writing those reports and tribunals have ever made, and it’s unreasonable to expect that they will.

I don't object to the tone of the report - I'd prefer it if it took a more neutral tone, but this sort of report never does so it's foolish to expect it. I do object to comments that, in essence, deny women can sexually harass men.

When all’s said and done misogyny (and indeed other forms of discrimination) remain a disproportionately large problem for society in this country, we all suffer directly because of it, and anything that stamps it out should be welcomed and encouraged.

Well no, you shouldn't accept anything that claims to reduce discrimination. To make a deliberately extreme example, you wouldn't support assassinating everyone who makes an off-colour joke.

 

[Walter Whigham]

Why on earth was Manuel Cortes still on the TSSA payroll after he was to retire. To me that stinks of corruption at the top.

Indeed! It is probable that Baroness Kennedy was unaware that he was still on the payroll, possibly because she was unable to question him. Mr Cortes seems to have gone to ground in recent weeks. The BBC says that it has tried relentlessly to contact him for his side of these unfortunate events, but to no avail. If he is as innocent as he claims he is, one would have thought he would seize an opportunity to clear his name publicly.

It is interesting that until yesterday Manuel Cortes was actively using a Twitter address with a TSSA "handle", despite having "retired" in October last year.

 

[alistairlees]

It is interesting that until yesterday Manuel Cortes was actively using a Twitter address with a TSSA "handle", despite having "retired" in October last year.

Unbelievably his Twitter handle still has ‘TSSA’ in it

 

[Thirteen]

A lot of the right wing media must have been rubbing their hands with glee with this report because it shows that their stereotype of trade unions and so called barons wasn't totally false. Clearing out all those involved in the report and starting afresh is the only realistic option for TSSA.

Out of interest, have any of the other unions said anything about this? You would hope the likes of the RMT would be assuring both members and the media that they don't tolerate this behaviour.

 

[eldomtom2]

A lot of the right wing media must have been rubbing their hands with glee with this report because it shows that their stereotype of trade unions and so called barons wasn't totally false.

I'm not so sure. Sexual harassment isn't part of the "union baron" stereotype, and this report has nothing to do with things like calling strikes against union members' wishes.

 

[Thirteen]

I'm not so sure. Sexual harassment isn't part of the "union baron" stereotype, and this report has nothing to do with things like calling strikes against union members' wishes.

Sexual harrassment isn't but the mafia culture would be.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I don't object to the tone of the report - I'd prefer it if it took a more neutral tone, but this sort of report never does so it's foolish to expect it. I do object to comments that, in essence, deny women can sexually harass men.

And if any of those actually unequivocally appeared in the report that’d be reasonable. But they don’t.

Also as long as you have humans writing reports they’re going to have the perspective of the human writing it in them. There’s no way that that cannot be the case, that’s not how brains work.

Well no, you shouldn't accept anything that claims to reduce discrimination. To make a deliberately extreme example, you wouldn't support assassinating everyone who makes an off-colour joke.

I’m all for absurdism in arguments but obviously extreme arguments like this do nothing but enable discrimination by making every suggestion people make to tackle these issues seem extreme by association, when they really aren’t.

 

[eldomtom2]

And if any of those actually unequivocally appeared in the report that’d be reasonable. But they don’t.

When a report says "sexual harassment should be called out for what it is – an abuse of power derived from patriarchal systems - that harms not only the immediate victim, but all women" I consider it fair to say that the report's author views sexual harassment by women of men to be nonexistent on a fundamental level.

Also as long as you have humans writing reports they’re going to have the perspective of the human writing it in them. There’s no way that that cannot be the case, that’s not how brains work.

Do you deny that bias has degrees?

I’m all for absurdism in arguments but obviously extreme arguments like this do nothing but enable discrimination by making every suggestion people make to tackle these issues seem extreme by association, when they really aren’t.

This is a deliberate misreading of my argument. My point was that demanding support of every policy that claims to reduce discrimination is illogical.

 

[godfreycomplex]

When a report says "sexual harassment should be called out for what it is – an abuse of power derived from patriarchal systems - that harms not only the immediate victim, but all women" I consider it fair to say that the report's author views sexual harassment by women of men to be nonexistent on a fundamental level.

I don’t consider that fair. There’s no explicit statement to that effect. The inclusion of the word women at the end of the sentence is perhaps a little clumsy, but there isn’t any clear and obvious evidence, at all, that it’s anything more

Do you deny that bias has degrees?

I deny that there’s a reliable way to measure the degree of that bias. Actions which display that bias, such as the misogynists in the TSSA displayed, are a different matter.

This is a deliberate misreading of my argument. My point was that demanding support of every policy that claims to reduce discrimination is illogical.

Ok, fair enough

Out of interest what would you do to tackle misogyny?

 

[eldomtom2]

I don’t consider that fair. There’s no explicit statement to that effect. The inclusion of the word women at the end of the sentence is perhaps a little clumsy, but there isn’t any clear and obvious evidence, at all, that it’s anything more

You don't think consistently referring to sexual harassment as something solely done by men to women - in the foreword, when they are not discussing the TSSA in specific - says anything about someone's views?

 

[godfreycomplex]

You don't think consistently referring to sexual harassment as something solely done by men to women - in the foreword, when they are not discussing the TSSA in specific - says anything about someone's views?

Not enough to be conclusive, no

And I say again, I don’t see the statements made as having that meaning or inference, oblique or tacit

 

[eldomtom2]

Not enough to be conclusive, no

And I say again, I don’t see the statements made as having that meaning or inference, oblique or tacit

I would reread the foreward and note how sexual harassment etc. is described in a general - non-TSSA specific - sense.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I would reread the foreward and note how sexual harassment etc. is described in a general - non-TSSA specific - sense.

Thank you I’ve already done that, several times. Every time I do it however I cannot see any statement whatsoever, explicit or inferred, to the effect that Helena Kennedy holds the views you describe.

What I can see however is a disgusting, discriminatory environment in an organisation that society should expect more from. That’s more important than any nitpicking distraction, real or false.

 

[Dai Corner]

Thank you I’ve already done that, several times. Every time I do it however I cannot see any statement whatsoever, explicit or inferred, to the effect that Helena Kennedy holds the views you describe.

I've highlighted a couple of the references and suggested amendments

I took on this Inquiry in the knowledge that sexual harassment and assault
rarely exist in isolation. They occur in environments that tolerate, or
support, misogynistic or misandrist attitudes. They occur on a spectrum, where at one
end there is ‘banter;’ at the other end, the most egregious forms of male
violence, including rape and domestic abuse. In my mind, ‘banter’ can
never be harmless if it in any way denigrates, objectifies or humiliates
women people.

 

[Runningaround]

Fear not, union staff are usually in a union themselves or are at least entirely entitled to be.

The same one or a Unions Staff Union? Will we see USU picketing TSSA. That'll be fun to watch

 

[godfreycomplex]

I've highlighted a couple of the references and suggested amendments

Does anything said in the report as it stands actively state that the writer doesn’t hold that view?

 

[Dai Corner]

Does anything said in the report as it stands actively state that the writer doesn’t hold that view?

The fact that she worded that paragraph as she did?