East Midlands Railway overcrowding issues

[liamf656]

East Midlands Railway services have really been suffering on both their Intercity and Regional services over the past 24 hours, due to the planned closure of the WCML, causing a significant amount of extra passengers onto their services.

Caverswall signal box was down for most of the afternoon rendering the Stoke to Derby route pretty much unusable too.

You’d be surprised but even the Oxford-Didcot closure seemed to have played a small part in this too, as it’s put huge pressure on Chiltern, to the point some of their passengers even made their way to St Pancras!! There were quite a few on my London-Sheffield train wanting places such as (but not limited to):
Manchester
Liverpool
North Wales
Shrewsbury
Leamington Spa
Solihull

I have created a thread to focus on overcrowding as a whole this weekend, where we can talk more on the Chiltern lines and even the ECML/GWML if they suffer too

 

[Class 170101]

Caverswall signal box was down for most of the afternoon rendering the Stoke to Derby route pretty much unusable too.

You’d be surprised but even the Oxford-Didcot closure seemed to have played a small part in this too, as it’s put huge pressure on Chiltern, to the point some of their passengers even made their way to St Pancras!! There were quite a few on my London-Sheffield train wanting places such as (but not limited to):
Manchester
Liverpool
North Wales
Shrewsbury
Leamington Spa
Solihull

I have created a thread to focus on overcrowding as a whole this weekend, where we can talk more on the Chiltern lines and even the ECML/GWML if they suffer too

Not even sure how Leamington and Solihull would be considered by someone from St Pancras never mind a valid route. I would have thought even Shrewsbury is pushing it.

 

[yorksrob]

Removing the flagship HST fleet without adequate replacement was a disastrous decision.

 

[43074]

Not even sure how Leamington and Solihull would be considered by someone from St Pancras never mind a valid route. I would have thought even Shrewsbury is pushing it.

If the railway is daft enough to schedule engineering works which result in an all line closure of the West Coast Main Line on one of the busiest weekends of the year for travel I don't think it's in any position to quibble about valid routings.

 

[liamf656]

Not even sure how Leamington and Solihull would be considered by someone from St Pancras never mind a valid route. I would have thought even Shrewsbury is pushing it.

It did seem to be a bit of a free for all and mostly “national rail says to go this way so I did”, but it baffles me too! There was also one who went from London to Boston (Lincolnshire), but via Derby!!

In addition today seems to be a lot better southbound, but still very crowded northbound. I reckon the closure of Sheffield-Manchester has a part to play, and unfortunately the Derby-Crewe service is leaving unbelievable amounts of people behind

 

[Llandudno]

It did seem to be a bit of a free for all and mostly “national rail says to go this way so I did”, but it baffles me too! There was also one who went from London to Boston (Lincolnshire), but via Derby!!

In addition today seems to be a lot better southbound, but still very crowded northbound. I reckon the closure of Sheffield-Manchester has a part to play, and unfortunately the Derby-Crewe service is leaving unbelievable amounts of people behind

How many coaches did they allocate to Crewe-Derby as there were 4 car Class 170s on the Matlock branch today

 

[Class 170101]

How many coaches did they allocate to Crewe-Derby as there were 4 car Class 170s on the Matlock branch today

Realtime Trains | Departures from Uttoxeter between 0200 and 0159 on 08/04/2023

Train information at Uttoxeter between 0200 and 0159 on 08/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

RTT says either two or four. However the line now appears to be closed due to a fatality

 

[LowLevel]

Realtime Trains | Departures from Uttoxeter between 0200 and 0159 on 08/04/2023

Train information at Uttoxeter between 0200 and 0159 on 08/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

RTT says either two or four. However the line now appears to be closed due to a fatality

Complicated fatality at Longport with no diversionary routes or replacement transport available. Completely stuffed.

 

[43055]

How many coaches did they allocate to Crewe-Derby as there were 4 car Class 170s on the Matlock branch today

1 4 car diagram with the other 3 the normal 2 coaches. In other blocks on the hope valley most of the diagrams would of been strengthened to 4 car. Would of thought the 4 car on the Matlock's would be better use on the Crewe - Newark's today.

 

[Class 170101]

Woulod have thought EMR would have plenty of units today as they wouldn't be heading west of Sheffield, with which to strengthen other services.

 

[liamf656]

1 4 car diagram with the other 3 the normal 2 coaches. In other blocks on the hope valley most of the diagrams would of been strengthened to 4 car. Would of thought the 4 car on the Matlock's would be better use on the Crewe - Newark's today.

I am very surprised we didn’t see and more 4/5/6 coach trains to Crewe. In the past they’ve been able to resource every service for strengthening, even if that meant some splitting/joining at Nottingham. On the other hand I’m also surprised to see services to Matlock being strengthened when it would have been easier to keep them as 2 car and any overcrowding could have been managed by road transport

The advice was for passengers to go to Bedford and change for a bus to Milton Keynes to continue onwards. In reality, it looked like very few followed that and got caught up in disruption at both Sheffield (Hope Valley shut) and Derby (Crewe service suspended due to fatality). Obviously these things aren’t always foreseen and difficult to manage however I think there should have been a bit more encouragement to get pax to Bedford. There was even one guy that went from London to Milton Keynes… via Leicester and Nuneaton!!

 

[Mugby]

I think a lot of London to Manchester passengers were travelling up from St. Pancras to Derby thinking they would change there for Stoke without checking the times beforehand. EMR did double up quite a few Sheffield trains on Saturday, I was waiting at Derby for the 1128 to Sheffield and it disgorged a large number of people when it arrived, both 5-car sets were very full.
However, many people perhaps didn't realise there a 2 hour gap in the Crewe services between 1048 and 1248 so some would have a very long wait.
Both the 1048 and the 1248 were just 2-car units and, not forgetting, they also attract a lot of Alton Towers visitors on Saturdays.

 

[MKJai]

I am very surprised we didn’t see and more 4/5/6 coach trains to Crewe. In the past they’ve been able to resource every service for strengthening, even if that meant some splitting/joining at Nottingham. On the other hand I’m also surprised to see services to Matlock being strengthened when it would have been easier to keep them as 2 car and any overcrowding could have been managed by road transport

The advice was for passengers to go to Bedford and change for a bus to Milton Keynes to continue onwards. In reality, it looked like very few followed that and got caught up in disruption at both Sheffield (Hope Valley shut) and Derby (Crewe service suspended due to fatality). Obviously these things aren’t always foreseen and difficult to manage however I think there should have been a bit more encouragement to get pax to Bedford. There was even one guy that went from London to Milton Keynes… via Leicester and Nuneaton!!

I think in passengers' point of view, the advice of using rail replacement bus to Milton Keynes is ridiculous enough. They would just look for their own alternative like what we have seen today or even get rid of railway instead.

It is very clear that the current way of planning engineer works does not cope with the trend of having less commuters but much much more leisurers and the whole industry must carefully review this.

 

[miklcct]

I think in passengers' point of view, the advice of using rail replacement bus to Milton Keynes is ridiculous enough. They would just look for their own alternative like what we have seen today or even get rid of railway instead.

It is very clear that the current way of planning engineer works does not cope with the trend of having less commuters but much much more leisurers and the whole industry must carefully review this.

I considered using the RRB or Sheffield - Manchester - Lancaster route for my journey. I ended up using the RRB because I had no confidence in the TPE service given the 2-hour gap. The RRB only had 2 passengers on board, one is me and one is a railway staff.

It turned out that if I actually used the railway all the way I would have been eligible for Delay Repay!

 

[STINT47]

I think this week's experience shows that passengers will do almost anything to avoid replacement buses and take the train even if it's via a longer route and or against TOC advice to take a bus

I can understand this army own experience of replacement buses is poor. It seems that TOCs often puck thd cheapest option leading to old tired vehicles and the driver has got lost on more than one occasion.

Alsi if I'm paying for rail I want a train. If I'm going by road I might as well save a chunk of money by using the coach and they'll usually offer a much nicer/higher quality experience compared to the rail replacement bus.

 

[miklcct]

I think this week's experience shows that passengers will do almost anything to avoid replacement buses and take the train even if it's via a longer route and or against TOC advice to take a bus

I can understand this army own experience of replacement buses is poor. It seems that TOCs often puck thd cheapest option leading to old tired vehicles and the driver has got lost on more than one occasion.

Alsi if I'm paying for rail I want a train. If I'm going by road I might as well save a chunk of money by using the coach and they'll usually offer a much nicer/higher quality experience compared to the rail replacement bus.

I'll do almost anything to avoid RRBs which stop everywhere along the route adding hours to my journey, but the one from Bedford to MK isn't one of these.

I have checked the coaches but travelling on a coach all the way from London to Lancaster seems a very poor option. If my destination is Birmingham instead I'll definitely use a coach when the line closure is known.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think this week's experience shows that passengers will do almost anything to avoid replacement buses and take the train even if it's via a longer route and or against TOC advice to take a bus

I can understand this army own experience of replacement buses is poor. It seems that TOCs often puck thd cheapest option leading to old tired vehicles and the driver has got lost on more than one occasion.

Alsi if I'm paying for rail I want a train. If I'm going by road I might as well save a chunk of money by using the coach and they'll usually offer a much nicer/higher quality experience compared to the rail replacement bus.

We have had a couple of situations recently where GTR have stated they can’t source enough buses. This happened as recently as last week on the Southern Midland Mainline blockage. But also recall it happening on the ECML blockage. Granted this is a different area, but I certainly wouldn’t use rail replacement buses for that reason. I would either drive or in this case if I was doing London - Liverpool (as an example) Travel via Leeds even if it meant splitting tickets. However with the current state of TPE - driving is the only safe option (in terms of getting to your destination at predictable time).

The GTR issues did leave 90 minute gaps between buses on some routes, they looked very empty as I suspect people just drove to the nearest ECML / MML station depending on where they were going.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

I'm about to catch a Derby bound train at Tutbury & Hatton and this thread has got me panicking I won't be able to board! Luckily The Railway pub is adjacent - currently only two customers (including me) and blasting out music in the beer garden for some reason.

 

[Rob F]

Removing the flagship HST fleet without adequate replacement was a disastrous decision.

Agreed. ++++++

 

[QSK19]

Removing the flagship HST fleet without adequate replacement was a disastrous decision.

And then the sorry ex-LNER HST fiasco made it a very, very sad end to the chapter of HSTs serving the MML. IC services are still suffering to this day because of the careless HST withdrawal and I fear that the 810s, despite there being 33 of them versus the 27 Meridians, won’t solve overcrowding issues.

 

[Mugby]

Bearing in mind what was said when the 810s were first ordered; that they would "Almost always run in pairs". was the quantity of 33 sets thought to be sufficient to cover that claim?

If they had been ordered as, let's say, 7-car sets with 2 Firsts and 5 Standards to each set, they wouldn't run in pairs and surely the number of sets ordered could have been reduced?

It's a pity the clowns at the DfT are stuck in their ways of ordering trains of insufficient capacity and then issuing empty promises about doubling up regularly wherever needed.

 

[STINT47]

Bearing in mind what was said when the 810s were first ordered; that they would "Almost always run in pairs". was the quantity of 33 sets thought to be sufficient to cover that claim?

If they had been ordered as, let's say, 7-car sets with 2 Firsts and 5 Standards to each set, they wouldn't run in pairs and surely the number of sets ordered could have been reduced?

It's a pity the clowns at the DfT are stuck in their ways of ordering trains of insufficient capacity and then issuing empty promises about doubling up regularly wherever needed.

I think they said that they would frequently run as pairs. Frequently is open to interpretation, doubling up a few services a day could meet the description of frequently.

 

[Snow1964]

I think they said that they would frequently run as pairs. Frequently is open to interpretation, doubling up a few services a day could meet the description of frequently.

It also depends if those trains are used as double on busy services, or if for operational simplicity tend to stay doubled up all day. The return leg of the same working is not always busy too.

St Pancras doesn't really have a sufficient EMR platforms to detach a unit, leave it parked 2 hours, then couple it to an incoming 5car to form another busy train going out. And I can't see it happening at Sheffield either.

Take Good Friday as an example, if you had run the double sets at commuter times to London, then sent them straight back as double, wouldn't have had sufficient double sets for the 10-11am leisure rush out of London.

I don't think DfT understands this basic concept.

 

[cactustwirly]

It also depends if those trains are used as double on busy services, or if for operational simplicity tend to stay doubled up all day. The return leg of the same working is not always busy too.

St Pancras doesn't really have a sufficient EMR platforms to detach a unit, leave it parked 2 hours, then couple it to an incoming 5car to form another busy train going out. And I can't see it happening at Sheffield either.

Take Good Friday as an example, if you had run the double sets at commuter times to London, then sent them straight back as double, wouldn't have had sufficient double sets for the 10-11am leisure rush out of London.

I don't think DfT understands this basic concept.

They would run empty to Cricklewood rather than sit at STP

 

[JamesT]

It also depends if those trains are used as double on busy services, or if for operational simplicity tend to stay doubled up all day. The return leg of the same working is not always busy too.

St Pancras doesn't really have a sufficient EMR platforms to detach a unit, leave it parked 2 hours, then couple it to an incoming 5car to form another busy train going out. And I can't see it happening at Sheffield either.

Take Good Friday as an example, if you had run the double sets at commuter times to London, then sent them straight back as double, wouldn't have had sufficient double sets for the 10-11am leisure rush out of London.

I don't think DfT understands this basic concept.

Isn’t the issue with the current setup that trains do have to sit in St Pancras for ages because they’re not interchangeable? A long train comes in, but the next departure for such a train is in 5 minutes which isn’t enough time to turn it around, so it sits for 65 minutes.
Whereas if EMR is made up of 5-cars then half the train can be sent to a destination that only requires that much capacity and the next double set is made up by coupling.

 

[TheBigD]

Isn’t the issue with the current setup that trains do have to sit in St Pancras for ages because they’re not interchangeable? A long train comes in, but the next departure for such a train is in 5 minutes which isn’t enough time to turn it around, so it sits for 65 minutes.
Whereas if EMR is made up of 5-cars then half the train can be sent to a destination that only requires that much capacity and the next double set is made up by coupling.

The 65 minute turnarounds ended when the HSTs were withdrawn. Usual set up is now 25 minutes for the Corby service, and between 25 and 40 minutes for the Nottingham and Sheffield services. You do get some workings that come in as a double and then split (and vv) and some services that are ECS to/from Cricklewood.

 

[Failed Unit]

It will be interesting to see what happens one they have all the stock that is planned for them.

On the Inter-City side it would be possible to send the 360s further north on days that mega-crowd busters are needed.

The regional side is more interesting. I didn’t realise how many stations can’t take 3 car 170s (Newark Castle can only take 2.5). It is also odd they ask people at Market Rasen to move to the front 2 when 3 fit there (as they did in CT days). But doubling up 170s to cover peak loads could cause problems.

However it seems that all Leicester - Lincoln / Grimsby could be 3 coaches. If the full timetable is re-introduced then Nottingham - Mansfield may not be such a problem, and the 5 coach 158s on Norwich - Liverpool may work for now. Grimsby - Lincoln on Saturdays is much better now it is 3 car (what does it need to do to move to hourly). Can’t comment on Crewe - Nottingham and Matlock - Nottingham. Skegness is always a pain as the sun has a massive influence on its loadings.

 

[TheBigD]

...Skegness is always a pain as the sun has a massive influence on its loadings.

Last year EMR got the Skeggy provision largely right.
Monday to Friday, of the 5 diagrams only 1 was a 2 car, 3 were 3 car, and 1 was 2 x 2 car.
Summer Saturday, of the 5 diagrams, 1 was a 3 car, and the other 4 were 2 x 2 car. The 180s were at 0825 and 0940 of Nottingham, returning at 1140 and 1335.

With the 180s leaving I expect buses on standby will be their replacement for this summer, along with less 4 cars to free up units to replace their extra workings. Time will tell...

 

[QSK19]

On the Inter-City side it would be possible to send the 360s further north on days that mega-crowd busters are needed.

It would have to be loco-hauled like a 57-390 sort of setup. Mind you, given that some services are 4-car even with the 360 remit being just STP-Corby, not sure they’d have spare stock to run said crowd buster services (unless they’re currently not being worked hard/efficiently enough).

 

[43066]

It would have to be loco-hauled like a 57-390 sort of setup. Mind you, given that some services are 4-car even with the 360 remit being just STP-Corby, not sure they’d have spare stock to run said crowd buster services (unless they’re currently not being worked hard/efficiently enough).

Loco hauled 360s .

Presumably they’re referring to when the wiring is complete to Market Harborough and eventually Leicester, and beyond.