Longer Distance Service You Didn't Expect Without Changing

[Andy873]

1M95 ran for the last time in 1962. It followed the old Midland route via Mansfield, calling at most stations to Elmton and Cresswell. It then went via Clowne and Barlborough to join the Sheffield "Old Road" at Foxlow Junction.

I'm interested in the route of 1M95 between Cudworth and Hebden Bridge, which way would it go? Actually, what I'm really interested in is the route of 1M89 Sheffield-Blackpool between Cudworth and Hebden Bridge!

The 1M95 in the 1962 WTT only ran for four Saturdays and as such it may or may not have appeared in BR's public timetable? As for the route, it's a bit out of my area but I can trace the route (going eastward from Hebden Bridge) until just after Sowerby Bridge, there (as you'll know) the line splits and I have no Idea which way it would have gone?

 

[PeterC]

In BR days there were some curious overnight runs with psssenger coaches attached to mail trains.

With a perfectly normal route but a unique stopping pattern was the early morning (from memory about 4AM) run from Liverpool Street to Norwich. It gave places like Romford and Ingatestone their only through service.

One which I used for the occasional local trip in aroung 1970 was the early evening departure from Aberystwyth to York. My memory of the timetable is that the balancing arrival was only shown from Crewe. The vans and passenger coach would stand in Aberystwyth station for the day.

 

[jfollows]

In BR days there were some curious overnight runs with psssenger coaches attached to mail trains.

With a perfectly normal route but a unique stopping pattern was the early morning (from memory about 4AM) run from Liverpool Street to Norwich. It gave places like Romford and Ingatestone their only through service.

From my 1974 WTT I see 1N38 04:30 Postal Liverpool Street to Norwich, calling at Stratford, Ilford, Romford, Brentwood, Ingatestone, Chelmsford, Witham, Colchester, Ipswich (06:35-07:32), Stowmarket, Diss & Norwich (08:29). The following "normal" train is 1N18 08:30 Liverpool Street to Norwich (10:42) so if you happen to be at Liverpool Street in the early hours it was certainly an option.

One which I used for the occasional local trip in aroung 1970 was the early evening departure from Aberystwyth to York. My memory of the timetable is that the balancing arrival was only shown from Crewe. The vans and passenger coach would stand in Aberystwyth station for the day.

The balancing arrival came from York, with a locomotive change at both Stockport and Crewe (electric between the two) and with a portion for Manchester Victoria detached at Stalybridge which didn't feature in the reverse direction.

 

[Dai Corner]

One oddity I remember getting while on an All-Line Rover about forty years ago was the Euston-Barrow-in-Furness sleeper. I presume it ran in case Navy or MoD personnel wanted to get from London to the submarine facilities there?

 

[nw1]

I remember noticing that the NE-SW HST service from Newcastle was more regularised in 1987.

The two Newcastle-Cardiffs were withdrawn, the Newcastle-Penzance loco-hauled became an HST again (having been made LHCS in the 1984 shake-up). Newcastle-Plymouth then became a regular interval two-hourly service on odd-hours at XX:25 with the Penzance being the 0925 service.

The pattern was muddled a bit in 1988 and the Cardiff returned, so it seems to have been a bit of an experiment in 1987.

I always though the Newcastle-Cardiff was one of the more interesting HST services. In 2002 it became a two-hourly Dundee-Cardiff service, one of Operation Princess' five core routes. Originally it was to have been Darlington-Cardiff, with Dundee having the not actually introduced hourly Poole service.

I realise this is going a bit OT but I'd be interested to know what year the "typical 90s pattern" on the SE and NW routes came in. i.e xx06 southbound from New Street to Reading, xx17 (I think) southbound from Piccadilly. and xx20 from Bournemouth / xx50 from Southampton Central , not all hours (but irregular from Reading).

 

[30907]

The 1M95 in the 1962 WTT only ran for four Saturdays and as such it may or may not have appeared in BR's public timetable? As for the route, it's a bit out of my area but I can trace the route (going eastward from Hebden Bridge) until just after Sowerby Bridge, there (as you'll know) the line splits and I have no Idea which way it would have gone?

From Cudworth it might have gone via the ex MR Royston Jn-Thornhill Midland Jn route IF that was still open, otherwise via Wakefield Kirkgate.
Crigglestone Jn-Horbury Station Jn was a route used by Sheffield-Blackpool trains into the late 70s but that wasn't accessible from Cudworth.

 

[jfollows]

I realise this is going a bit OT but I'd be interested to know what year the "typical 90s pattern" on the SE and NW routes came in. i.e xx06 southbound from New Street to Reading, xx17 (I think) southbound from Piccadilly. and xx20 from Bournemouth / xx50 from Southampton Central , not all hours (but irregular from Reading).

My guess would be 1987-88 based on the departure times from Manchester Piccadilly I can see in old WTTs. Not in the 1985-86 public timetable I have but similar to your description in the 1992-93 public timetable I have. If you can find a public timetable inbetween the ones I have you might be able to verify, correct or narrow it down further.

 

[hexagon789]

I realise this is going a bit OT but I'd be interested to know what year the "typical 90s pattern" on the SE and NW routes came in. i.e xx06 southbound from New Street to Reading, xx17 (I think) southbound from Piccadilly. and xx20 from Bournemouth / xx50 from Southampton Central , not all hours (but irregular from Reading).

I'll flick through my GBTTs again this afternoon.

 

[Ken H]

I'll flick through my GBTTs again this afternoon.

Scan of timetable world may help...?

 

[MotCO]

With some of these strange routes, would a driver have sufficient route knowledge for the whole trip, or would drivers change on route, always assuming that the traction was common enough for traction knowledge to be widely available.

 

[jfollows]

With some of these strange routes, would a driver have sufficient route knowledge for the whole trip, or would drivers change on route, always assuming that the traction was common enough for traction knowledge to be widely available.

Drivers would change en route, which is the reason - for example - for things such as unadvertised calls at places like Bristol Temple Meads, where it is likely that drivers and guards would change over.

 

[nw1]

My guess would be 1987-88 based on the departure times from Manchester Piccadilly I can see in old WTTs. Not in the 1985-86 public timetable I have but similar to your description in the 1992-93 public timetable I have. If you can find a public timetable inbetween the ones I have you might be able to verify, correct or narrow it down further.

Ah ok, thanks (and to @hexagon789 too)

In BR days there were some curious overnight runs with psssenger coaches attached to mail trains.

With a perfectly normal route but a unique stopping pattern was the early morning (from memory about 4AM) run from Liverpool Street to Norwich. It gave places like Romford and Ingatestone their only through service.

That reminds me of the (late lamented?) 0105 from Waterloo to Southampton Central, which was generally semi-fast but nonetheless stopped not only at Wimbledon and Surbiton but also Vauxhall - thus giving a perhaps unique direct link between Vauxhall and SWML main stations.

Used it a few times in the 00s - 8CIG formerly and 8 450 latterly. On one occasion the Waterloo-Woking section was substituted by a London bus.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Nottingham to Carlisle under the current Northern, once a week on a Sunday is probably a pleasantly surprising one for many.

As was the old Arriva Trains Northern Leeds-Glasgow Central service via Carlisle in the brief time it ran.

It's no longer Nottingham to Carlisle - starts at Sheffield now.

The return working does terminate at Nottingham, even if it stops everywhere on the S&C.

 

[Magdalia]

From Cudworth it might have gone via the ex MR Royston Jn-Thornhill Midland Jn route IF that was still open, otherwise via Wakefield Kirkgate.
Crigglestone Jn-Horbury Station Jn was a route used by Sheffield-Blackpool trains into the late 70s but that wasn't accessible from Cudworth.

The history of the ex MR Royston Jn-Thornhill Midland Jn route does seem a bit vague. This old thread is about that route, but not very enlightening:

Middlestown station

Does anyone have any information on this station that was situated between Huddersfield and Wakefield. and what services, passengers and goods, may have used it ?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[30907]

The history of the ex MR Royston Jn-Thornhill Midland Jn route does seem a bit vague. This old thread is about that route, but not very enlightening:

...though it does give a closure date in 1968, so leaving the possibility open.

 

[hexagon789]

Scan of timetable world may help...?

They don't have much beyond the 1982 GBTT for free though, whereas I can look at my personal collection for nothing...

 

[WesternLancer]

All you need to know is here http://www.1s76.com, in particular for 1990-1991.

Simple answer is probably that Derby was a carriage sidings for CrossCountry services.

Thanks - did not occur to me it would be on that excellent site! V helpful.

In the 14/5/90 to 12/5/91 timetable there was 1O66 11:17 Derby-Brighton, 12p41h from Birmingham New Street and 14/24 at Wolvercot Junction via Worcester. D315, D280 from Reading, air-conditioned 100mph stock.
There's nothing like it in the 1993/4 public timetable.
It's also not in a 1991/92 WTT for the Brighton Line.

p - advertised 1 minute earlier
/ - passing time
h - half a minute

Thanks for this detail - helpful to see. It was clearly short lived, wish I'd used it more when I was doing that journey.

This train from Lincoln isn't the only curiosity, also on the same page (attached) is a train going from Radford (Nottingham) to Blackpool North (1M95). Firstly I was confused about this one, thought it was a misprint, thought it should have said Bradford. But no, Radford it was. This one train was of interest to me as it was diverted down my old branch (North Lancs loop) to avoid Accrington.

This Radford one is a strange one, I have no idea why the train didn't start at Nottingham? it probably would have gone past (stopped at) Radford anyway?

See attached.

This is indeed interesting. Radford Station was v close to both the large Raleigh Cycle Factories and the large John Player Cigarettes / Tobacco factories, and many who worked in them would have lived close by, as well as communities along the route towards Mansfield, so maybe that provided plenty of passengers without needing to start in Nottingham.

 

[Magdalia]

From Cudworth it might have gone via the ex MR Royston Jn-Thornhill Midland Jn route IF that was still open, otherwise via Wakefield Kirkgate.

It occurred to me to consult Passenger Services Over Unusual Lines (PSUL), which started in 1963.

This shows the Sheffield-Blackpool and return as the only passenger services booked over the Royston Jn-Thornhill Midland Jn route, finishing at the end of the 1967 summer.

From 1968 the Sheffield-Blackpool went via Hare Park, Calder Bridge and Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[D1537]

I realise this is going a bit OT but I'd be interested to know what year the "typical 90s pattern" on the SE and NW routes came in. i.e xx06 southbound from New Street to Reading, xx17 (I think) southbound from Piccadilly. and xx20 from Bournemouth / xx50 from Southampton Central , not all hours (but irregular from Reading).

My guess would be 1987-88 based on the departure times from Manchester Piccadilly I can see in old WTTs. Not in the 1985-86 public timetable I have but similar to your description in the 1992-93 public timetable I have. If you can find a public timetable inbetween the ones I have you might be able to verify, correct or narrow it down further.

Not 87-88. Northbounds left Poole fairly randomly (1M88 0625 MAN, 1S39 0834 GLC, 1E63 1038 NCL, 1M07 1238 MAN, 1M23 1458 LIV, 1M40 1732 LIV) with equivalent southbounds. The first two northbounds were from Paddington (1M09 0550 LPL, 1M10 0703 MAN) as were the last two southbounds, and so on.

 

[nw1]

Not 87-88. Northbounds left Poole fairly randomly (1M88 0625 MAN, 1S39 0834 GLC, 1E63 1038 NCL, 1M07 1238 MAN, 1M23 1458 LIV, 1M40 1732 LIV) with equivalent southbounds. The first two northbounds were from Paddington (1M09 0550 LPL, 1M10 0703 MAN) as were the last two southbounds, and so on.

OK thanks. Sounds not dissimilar to 1986-87: the Pooles (that I remember) left Reading around 0830 (Liverpool or Manchester), 1035 (Wessex Scot - Glasgow), 1235 (Newcastle) and 1640 (Liverpool). Reading was about 2 hours from Poole. Thus the 1987-88 timetable appears largely unchanged, except for the new 1238 Manchester service. This likely took the path of the Portsmouth-Manchester from Reading northwards, as this was 1434 from Reading in 1986.

So perhaps they did away with the Portsmouth services partly in order to provide an additional service from Poole, though I'm not sure what took the path of the former 0805 Portsmouth-Liverpool, around 0940 from Reading.

The 0550 Paddington in 1987 is also another long-standing 80s service, existing in 1982 (from Ealing Broadway) and 1983 onwards (from Paddington), calling Reading at 0630.

They don't have much beyond the 1982 GBTT for free though, whereas I can look at my personal collection for nothing...

For the "NSE" area they also have full timetables for 1981 and 1996; these also have summaries of IC services from key stations.

Further back they have a lot of Southern Region timetables from the first half of the 60s.

 

[Andy873]

It occurred to me to consult Passenger Services Over Unusual Lines (PSUL), which started in 1963.

This shows the Sheffield-Blackpool and return as the only passenger services booked over the Royston Jn-Thornhill Midland Jn route, finishing at the end of the 1967 summer.

From 1968 the Sheffield-Blackpool went via Hare Park, Calder Bridge and Wakefield Kirkgate.

The Sheffield to Blackpool service was definitely running summer 1962 SO 8am departure (1M89), it's my 1962 WTT.

 

[hexagon789]

For the "NSE" area they also have full timetables for 1981 and 1996; these also have summaries of IC services from key stations.

I missed that, but in my defence the NSE area is outside my usual sphere of interest!

I have the 1981 GBTT anyway, though not 1996.

 

[D1537]

So perhaps they did away with the Portsmouth services partly in order to provide an additional service from Poole, though I'm not sure what took the path of the former 0805 Portsmouth-Liverpool, around 0940 from Reading.

The train that ran in the path of 1M03 was
1M20 0917 PAD-BHM, returned with 1V69 1310 BHM-PAD

There was also
1M17 1117 PAD-BHM, returned with 1V75 1440 BHM-PAD

Both diagrams were booked for 50s, but 47/4s were not unusual.

 

[70014IronDuke]

One oddity I remember getting while on an All-Line Rover about forty years ago was the Euston-Barrow-in-Furness sleeper. I presume it ran in case Navy or MoD personnel wanted to get from London to the submarine facilities there?

Wouldn't call it an 'oddity'. There were several (three, four?) a day through portions Euston - Barrow in the 60s.
The sleeper split at Preston.

One of today's exceptional journeys surely has to be IL98 06.24 Bristol TM to Stansted Airport - arr 11.41 - via Brum, Leicester and Peterboro'. 5 hr 17 min end-to-end. I imagine it could be done in 3.5 hours (?) via London.

 

[nw1]

The train that ran in the path of 1M03 was
1M20 0917 PAD-BHM, returned with 1V69 1310 BHM-PAD

There was also
1M17 1117 PAD-BHM, returned with 1V75 1440 BHM-PAD

Both diagrams were booked for 50s, but 47/4s were not unusual.

Ah ok, thanks, so they would have been approx 0950 and 1150 from Reading.

So an overall net gain of one from Reading in 1987, as there was I believe nothing in the 1130-1200 slot in 1986. (I did on one or two occasions see a Tyseley DMU operate an untimetabled 1140 Reading-Birmingham in summer 1986, but I have never got to the bottom of whether this train was ever semi-official; it's come up in previous threads but no-one has confirmed its existence).

Wonder if there was also a 15xx from Reading in 1987 as that was another "gap" in 1986.

(All this probably needs to be moved to another XC historical thread!)

 

[birchesgreen]

In the late 90s i travelled from Brighton to Birmingham direct, Class 47 hauled too. I think the train had to reverse at some point, unfortunately i can't remember where.

 

[swt_passenger]

In the late 90s i travelled from Brighton to Birmingham direct, Class 47 hauled too. I think the train had to reverse at some point, unfortunately i can't remember where.

Possibly Redhill if you went via Guildford.

 

[birchesgreen]

Possibly Redhill if you went via Guildford.

Yes may have been, come to think of it!

 

[Rob F]

In the late 80s there was an early evening train on Sundays from Leeds to Manchester Piccadilly via Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton. I think I have one of the window labels from it somewhere, complete with Swallow logo.

 

[Ken H]

There was a Carnforth - York DMU that went via Manchester Vic in the 80's. Dont know if Diggle or Calderdale route tho. Anyone know the years it ran? Think early mornings.