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Why does this current U.K. Government hate rail so much.

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Railways form part of the Common Good that makes up any current civilised Society, so of course slash-and-let-it-all-burn Tories have no interest in that concept, nor "conserving" it as part of the necessary structure of the nation.

Whether or not they can summon actual "hatred" only arises when they can be bothered to look at the budget for Rail.
 
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Adrian1980uk

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One of the big issues for government at the moment is they no longer have the defence budget to raid for cash for the 2 budgets sucking the country dry, NHS and benefits, so everywhere else has to reduce spending because in general the political views of the UK is wanting US levels of tax and European levels of public services... No government can balance that.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think many have an understanding on what Conservatism (large and possible small C's here) and quite frankly there will be some colourful adjectives for sure.
Marples didn't just have a passing interest he was directly responsible for this conflict of interest tragedy. The US and her patsy the UK always hate anything to do with any forms of Hoi Polloi and it is reflected in years of media gaslighting.

The present Conservative Party isn't a conservative party, nor does it follow Tory principles. It's a weird self serving populist mess.
 

tbtc

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I don’t think that the conspiracy theory stuff helps anything here, nor does digging up Marples or trying to pretend that Tories are some kind of “bogeyman”

But it felt inevitable that putting the railway in Government control would mean paralysis and penny pinching, just like every other decade when the government controlled the railway.

It’s not a “Red” or “Blue” thing, it’s just the natural result of Nationalisation. Need to accept this.


Possibly because the railways don't help themselves?

To an outsider, the railways seem to be both a bottomless money-pit and a perpetual source of bad news stories.

Agreed, I can see why outsiders will think that railways are a bottomless pit, Network Rail seems to have had no incentive to control costs, hence racking up billions of debt, it seems to cost millions of pounds just to move a signal or extend a platform, nothing is “cheap”

Things “functioned” in the boom era when TOCs were increasing passenger numbers each year and could afford above-inflation pay rises, increasing staff numbers, new trains etc. So it’s hard to adapt to a government controlled “new normal”
 

Bletchleyite

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I don’t think that the conspiracy theory stuff helps anything here, nor does digging up Marples or trying to pretend that Tories are some kind of “bogeyman”

But it felt inevitable that putting the railway in Government control would mean paralysis and penny pinching, just like every other decade when the government controlled the railway.

It’s not a “Red” or “Blue” thing, it’s just the natural result of Nationalisation. Need to accept this.

BR had a lot of freedom. This mess doesn't.
 

Master29

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One of the big issues for government at the moment is they no longer have the defence budget to raid for cash for the 2 budgets sucking the country dry, NHS and benefits, so everywhere else has to reduce spending because in general the political views of the UK is wanting US levels of tax and European levels of public services... No government can balance that.
Here we go. The MoD are huge wasters of taxpayers money so the Usual "Mail" and "Express" logic of "sucking the country dry is quite frankly callous and typical of both of these poor excuses of journalism. Charging in with this sort of talk has been more responsible for dragging this nation into the sewer than any vast budget overspending.
 

Edsmith

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Ok so we can all agree that this government hates rail and post covid we are seeing them strangle the railways to death.

And I know that seems dumb but can people give reasoning as to why they hate rail so much? I’ve seen points here and there but never seen a thread , so I thought I’d start one.

I just want to (and I’m sure others want to) create a full image of why the current government hates railways so much.
No we can't all agree on that at all, as mentioned there is the small matter of HS2 that seems to have escaped your attention and whether we like it or not there has been a considerable drop in usage post pandemic. I'm not suggesting everything is perfect but I doubt it would be any better under any other government.
 

Master29

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I don’t think that the conspiracy theory stuff helps anything here, nor does digging up Marples or trying to pretend that Tories are some kind of “bogeyman”

But it felt inevitable that putting the railway in Government control would mean paralysis and penny pinching, just like every other decade when the government controlled the railway.

It’s not a “Red” or “Blue” thing, it’s just the natural result of Nationalisation. Need to accept this.

Except I don't because it isn't true. Who are responsible for running the railways? The government (red or blue) whether privatised or nationalised.
 

Bletchleyite

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No we can't all agree on that at all, as mentioned there is the small matter of HS2 that seems to have escaped your attention and whether we like it or not there has been a considerable drop in usage post pandemic. I'm not suggesting everything is perfect but I doubt it would be any better under any other government.

There has been a drop, yes, but nowhere near down to levels it has been in recent years e.g. the early 2000s.
 

Master29

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The present Conservative Party isn't a conservative party, nor does it follow Tory principles. It's a weird self serving populist mess.
Indeed, but there are many, myself included who think this goes much further in different forms perhaps than this current shower.
 

tbtc

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BR had a lot of freedom. This mess doesn't.

Yes, BR had the freedom to cut lines, BR had the freedom to withdraw evening/ Sunday services are relatively short notice, BR had the freedom to introduce multiple increases to ticket prices each year, BRc had the freedom to chop 155s into single coach units… Is that what you want the railway to have the freedom to have?

Except I don't because it isn't true. Who are responsible for running the railways? The government (red or blue) whether privatised or nationalised.

…But the government is a lot more in control now than it was five years ago, and things are significantly worse
 

Harpers Tate

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For as long as I can remember, all Governments of all (both) colours have mistreated railways (and, indeed, public transport generally) whilst supporting ever increasing car use and associated tarmac use to a greater or lesser degree. Let us not forget: Harold Wilson (Lab) continued apace with the Beeching plan despite manifesto promises to halt the closures. I think I'm right in saying that Barbara Castle (as the minister with final approval of rail closures) was responsible for the loss of more rail miles than anyone else. Absolutely none of them have ever given non-car use the level of encouragement (= support) that it (IMO) ought to have. I seriously doubt anything will change after the next GE, irrespective of who sits in #10.
 

GWVillager

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It’s not a “Red” or “Blue” thing, it’s just the natural result of Nationalisation. Need to accept this.
I don't think it is at all. I'm definitely not the most pro-Nationalisation person on this forum, but what we're seeing now is far more to do with the railways being directly controlled by the DfT and, thus, people who don't really know what they're doing. If they were controlled by a separate body, Nationalised or not, they would be more likely to apply real, functional and long term solutions to costs with that very much being their job, in an industry they understand. At present, we have civil servants/elected politicians looking at the railway from an outside (and heavily frugal) perspective and ordering cuts that are going to prove to be poor ideas in 10 years, after all they don't know any better.

This is precisely why 'cancelling' (or at least severely watering down) GBR is a counter intuitive idea, reorganisation is what will really get the railways on track, if you'll excuse the pun. I have no doubt the government know this, and it feels like a symptom of an attitude prevalent in other areas, that they know their time is up and are making very short term decisions with little vision for what they want the future to actually look like.
 

Master29

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Yes, BR had the freedom to cut lines, BR had the freedom to withdraw evening/ Sunday services are relatively short notice, BR had the freedom to introduce multiple increases to ticket prices each year, BRc had the freedom to chop 155s into single coach units… Is that what you want the railway to have the freedom to have?



…But the government is a lot more in control now than it was five years ago, and things are significantly worse
I think "in control" would be the very loosest terminology.
 

eldomtom2

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Yes, BR had the freedom to cut lines, BR had the freedom to withdraw evening/ Sunday services are relatively short notice, BR had the freedom to introduce multiple increases to ticket prices each year, BRc had the freedom to chop 155s into single coach units… Is that what you want the railway to have the freedom to have?
What freedoms do you want the private operators to have?
…But the government is a lot more in control now than it was five years ago, and things are significantly worse
Yes, because there were no significant world events that happened during the past five years.
 

nw1

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Yes, BR had the freedom to cut lines, BR had the freedom to withdraw evening/ Sunday services are relatively short notice, BR had the freedom to introduce multiple increases to ticket prices each year, BRc had the freedom to chop 155s into single coach units… Is that what you want the railway to have the freedom to have?
Having used BR in its latter years (1982-95) I'd say the railway, or at least the parts of it I travelled on (Southern Region/NSE and occasionally IC routes out of London, XC and Regional Railways) didn't seem as bad as now.

The 1987-90 period in particular - the early NSE years, essentially - seemed a period of progress before the recession forced things somewhat backward for a time in 1991.

"Chopping 155s into single-coach units" isn't necessarily 100% bad anyhow, as a single-car unit can offer more flexibility in train lengths. For example a 158+153 combo is arguably better on a busy service than a single 158, if a second 158 is not available.
 
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david1212

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If rail was 100% private and was making a profit so bringing income in to the treasury I am sure this government would like rail. Regardless of if private, public or some combination if it broke even then they would still probably be happy. If it made them look good so gained votes then again logically they would like it. If a small loss / cost but was keeping a significant number employed and overall the tax income from the employees and supporting private businesses was greater than the cost again logically they would like it.

Right now it is a cost, little use directly to them and not a vote winner hence given the choice they would be happy to dump it. As this is not an option all they can do is cut the cost / subsidy.

The fact that rail ticks a few Pollution saving green boxes is irrelevant to this government now while longer term electrification, greener trains again is a cost.

Regarding HS2 Boris Johnson pressed the 'green button' to start construction just as Covid struck. I wonder if privately he thinks he made a mistake? If the decision was being made now and he was still PM would he do so now? Would Sunak press the 'green button' now to start construction? I think not.
 

GWVillager

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Regarding HS2 Boris Johnson pressed the 'green button' to start construction just as Covid struck. I wonder if privately he thinks he made a mistake? If the decision was being made now and he was still PM would he do so now? Would Sunak press the 'green button' now to start construction? I think not.
Yes, I think this is a key thing a lot of people fail to properly portray when arguing that HS2 proves government support for rail. It's well past the point of no return, and what isn't has been cut.
 

stj

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Possibly because the railways don't help themselves?

To an outsider, the railways seem to be both a bottomless money-pit and a perpetual source of bad news stories.
Very true and there are plenty of outsiders as the majority of people never use a Train.Many dont even live near a station.
 

GoneSouth

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… Many other public services have been cut to the bone over the past 13 years while the TOCs escaped due to being under the franchised system. Not that I’m in favour of the cuts of course.
I wish they’d tell us where they’ve spent the record tax burden we are experiencing at the moment, they can’t have spent it all on PPE, parties and speeding fines!
 

Master29

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Regarding HS2 Boris Johnson pressed the 'green button' to start construction just as Covid struck. I wonder if privately he thinks he made a mistake? If the decision was being made now and he was still PM would he do so now? Would Sunak press the 'green button' now to start construction? I think not.
I doubt privately whether Boris Johnson ever worried about past mistakes judging by his way of living unless it failed to put him in the limelight. The death of the Queen springs to mind as he missed the nations outpouring of grief by days.
Very true and there are plenty of outsiders as the majority of people never use a Train.Many dont even live near a station.
Disliking the railways is an objective opinion whatever the situation but living near a station or not has little to do with how the railways are run unless we think of closures of course.
 

deltic

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Ok so we can all agree that this government hates rail and post covid we are seeing them strangle the railways to death.

And I know that seems dumb but can people give reasoning as to why they hate rail so much? I’ve seen points here and there but never seen a thread , so I thought I’d start one.

I just want to (and I’m sure others want to) create a full image of why the current government hates railways so much.
No we dont all agree. The present government have pumped £billions into the railways and its not always clear what the taxpayer is getting for that money. There is no love/hate that comes into it, purely politics.
 

philosopher

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Yes, I think this is a key thing a lot of people fail to properly portray when arguing that HS2 proves government support for rail. It's well past the point of no return, and what isn't has been cut.
I think if the current government could cut HS2 in its entirety it would. However it has progressed too far to the cancelled without incurring significant costs such as having to pay significant contractually agreed costs to contractors and clean up costs.
 

GoneSouth

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Indeed, self evidently that definition excludes the personal freedom to use public transport for one's individual needs!
Agreed, ask those without the ability or funds to drive about personal freedom to access education, employment, health and social needs without public transport provision. It would be a pretty hateful government to dismantle those freedoms. Hold tight, we’re nearly there!
 

HSTEd

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The railway hardly inspires confidence that many spent on it is money well spent.
 

GoneSouth

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Is that why they're wasting so much money on HS2?
No, they’re wasting so much money on HS2 because of their incompetence at managing large projects, however they will be saving plenty in the future (at the same time as showing their true colours when it comes to rail investment) by killing half the project in the midlands and north of England
 

HSTEd

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It’s not a “Red” or “Blue” thing, it’s just the natural result of Nationalisation. Need to accept this.
I don't think it is.

I think it's the natural result of three decades of incompetent management in the railway
With coronavirus and the arrival of electric cars the two things the railway could hide behind (commuters and environmentalism) have fallen away.

The political consensus for throwing money at the railway has collapsed and was collapsing before the current model was established.

I don't think you can reasonably make the argument that the railway could keep spending unlimited money if not for that.

The government was already getting leery on railway spending before Corona!
 

urbophile

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I think I'm right in saying that Barbara Castle (as the minister with final approval of rail closures) was responsible for the loss of more rail miles than anyone else.
I think you are. But while not defending Wilson's government for backtracking on its manifesto, possibly many of these closures had been set in motion before the change of government, and it was too late to stop them. Possibly. Rather like Margaret Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was responsible for closing more grammar schools than her Labour predecessors.
 
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