Future of Third Rail

[MarkyT]

Or we could stop messing about and just put the third rail down with some better fencing and trespass measure and maybe some more granular isolation for trackside staff. Job done. o messing with the stock, or coming up with byzantine failsafe switching mechanisms to de-energise sections sections track when trains are present.

That's one reason to prefer an arrangement with some moderate battery capability onboard, able to bridge (say) a ten-mile gap in extremis but normally only needing to cover a mile or two around a station. The battery can also harvest braking energy for later reuse.

 

[tomuk]

That's one reason to prefer an arrangement with some moderate battery capability onboard, able to bridge (say) a ten-mile gap in extremis but normally only needing to cover a mile or two around a station. The battery can also harvest braking energy for later reuse.

Why complicate things with batteries? Who's paying for them and the maintenance? Regenerative braking works on third rail and there is always the option of locating batteries at substations or fitting more sophisticated transmission equipment to feed excess power into the grid.

 

[MarkyT]

Have you ever had an experienced third rail maintenance colleague electrocuted right next to you, fundamentally because of awkward isolation and earthing procedures?

I have. It's not nice. Especially within a few weeks of attending the Coroner's inquest into the electrocution of nine-year-old schoolboy who had got onto the track through a gap in the fence created by rail staff to create a short cut to a depot.

This is why any new installations if approved, need to be extremely carefully specified and designed to eliminate or mitigate as many risks as possible. It's completely unacceptable to simply roll out using the standards and practices of half a century ago. I only occasionally used to go out from the office onto third rail infrastructure for project site visits and signal equipment condition assessments, maybe a few times a month at most, and thank goodness was never involved in or witnessed any incidents, but I invariably had a healthily uneasy feeling when anywhere near the power rail, imagining consequenced if I was to fall, say, and I always exercised extreme care. There are few working environments where the personal consequences of a small mistake could be so high.

 

[zwk500]

Why complicate things with batteries? Who's paying for them and the maintenance? Regenerative braking works on third rail and there is always the option of locating batteries at substations or fitting more sophisticated transmission equipment to feed excess power into the grid.

Because having batteries allows the regenerative braking power to be fed back at a more optimal rate, if needed. And it means if something causes the breakers to trip, every train can still make it to a station before going into hotel mode.
Batteries are coming down in price all the time and don't take very much maintenance at all.

 

[MarkyT]

Why complicate things with batteries? Who's paying for them and the maintenance? Regenerative braking works on third rail and there is always the option of locating batteries at substations or fitting more sophisticated transmission equipment to feed excess power into the grid.

I would locate storage onboard AND at substations. Batteries and other storage techniques are quickly becoming completely mainstream in all kinds of applications. On trains a traction battery can provide an emergency source for 'hotel power' and get passengers at least to the next station potentially in event of power failure. Substations aren't always receptive to regenerated power if there aren't sufficient other trains in the immediate area, and being able to dump any excess into a battery avoids wasting power burning it off in resistor banks or defaulting to wholly friction braking. Even with wider grids being able to receive surplus power from regen, there's no guarantee they will be able to accept and use it at all times on demand.

 

[D365]

Take a look at the overlapping interlocks required for VivaRail's rapid charging rails to make it safe. This is in the context of a pair of rails a couple of feet long in the four foot the train making it difficult to touch them when live.

I was (very briefly) involved with this system, a fundamental reason is that the Vivarail fast charge introduces exposed live rails to regions where traction supplies are otherwise not found at ground level.

 

[eldomtom2]

Have you ever had an experienced third rail maintenance colleague electrocuted right next to you, fundamentally because of awkward isolation and earthing procedures?

I have. It's not nice. Especially within a few weeks of attending the Coroner's inquest into the electrocution of nine-year-old schoolboy who had got onto the track through a gap in the fence created by rail staff to create a short cut to a depot.

Of course the flip side is all the deaths due to air pollution etc...

 

[tomuk]

Of course the flip side is all the deaths due to air pollution etc...

Or road accidents from people not using the train if it isn't attractive enough proposition or what about industrial accidents and disease due to the higher and dirtier maintenance of the diesel trains.

 

[Mikey C]

A line which needs 8*20m trains at least at rush hour needs electrification, not batteries or any such fudge. It's not a 2 car shuttle service

One thing which I imagine won't be allowed are pedestrian crossings over a 3rd rail railway. The existing ones may have grandfather rights, but new ones would surely be banned, requiring a few bridges or path diversions.

 

[zwk500]

A line which needs 8*20m trains at least at rush hour needs electrification, not batteries or any such fudge. It's not a 2 car shuttle service

Batteries need to stop being seen as a fudge, but as a genuine part of the electric railway strategy.

One thing which I imagine won't be allowed are pedestrian crossings over a 3rd rail railway. The existing ones may have grandfather rights, but new ones would surely be banned, requiring a few bridges or path diversions.

That'll be an awful lot of bridges for 1tph.

 

[Snow1964]

Not sure if it is for electrification of gaps, or replacement of existing, but Network Rail has issued a tender for rails which includes about £61m of conductor rail

Conductor Rail Package

• Value: £61M

Network Rail will appoint up to 4 Suppliers to a framework. The Supplier shall provide Conductor Rail in lengths of either 18.288m or 91.44m. The minimum manufacturing batch call-off is 1,000 tonnes. The Supplier shall manufacture the batch within 90 calendar days of Network Rail request. The batch will be utilised solely to fulfil Network Rail’s requirements. Following manufacture, and until consumption of the batch, the minimum order quantity shall be 1 rail. The Supplier shall deliver Network Rail’s 18.288m requirements within a 7 calendar day lead time. The Supplier shall deliver Network Rail’s 91.44m requirements within a 30 calendar day lead time. The Supplier shall hold the batch at its own expense and risk, for a maximum of 12 months.

Steel Rail and Ancillary Services [Tender Notice]

The Supply of Steel Rail and ancillary services to Network Rail (NR) for a period of up to 8 years. ... A Tender Notice by Network Rail Infrastructure. Value £649M.

bidstats.uk

 

[AzureOtsu]

There are some cases where converting to OHLE is viable. but I believe as northern is doing in the north with its metro services, the remaining third rail should stay as is as an outer suburban metro style network, the class 700 is a reflection of this

 

[zwk500]

Not sure if it is for electrification of gaps, or replacement of existing, but Network Rail has issued a tender for rails which includes about £61m of conductor rail

That looks strongly like provision of supplies for maintenance and renewals needs.

There are some cases where converting to OHLE is viable.

Not many.

but I believe as northern is doing in the north with its metro services, the remaining third rail should stay as is as an outer suburban metro style network, the class 700 is a reflection of this

Really, where is Northern doing this? Having both systems at the same time on the same track is a nightmare, or are you saying just only convert some lines not the whole third rail network?

 

[AM9]

That looks strongly like provision of supplies for maintenance and renewals needs.

Agree, all this optimism about NR setting up a supply for conductor rail is wishful thinking by those who advocate continuing expansion of the network as if the safety issue has gone away. With the volatile nature of the steel industry, it is a wise move for NR to put in place an ongoing source of conductor rail to ensure that the existing network can be maintained. I don't think that the announcement should be regarded as an indicator of any forthcoming expansion of 3rd rail track.

 

[zwk500]

Agree, all this optimism about NR setting up a supply for conductor rail is wishful thinking by those who advocate continuing expansion of the network as if the safety issue has gone away. With the volatile nature of the steel industry, it is a wise move for NR to put in place an ongoing source of conductor rail to ensure that the existing network can be maintained. I don't think that the announcement should be regarded as an indicator of any forthcoming expansion of 3rd rail track.

In particular, the 7-day lead time for short lengths and the requirement to store the materials for 12 months. If this was for an expansion programme, it'd have a specific project in mind and would be tendered for delivery specifically for those times.

 

[AM9]

In particular, the 7-day lead time for short lengths and the requirement to store the materials for 12 months. If this was for an expansion programme, it'd have a specific project in mind and would be tendered for delivery specifically for those times.

I presume that there would also be a recycling arrangement to return worn track to the steel industry.

 

[Bryson]

This is normal activity, Network rail place long term contracts (5 years, sometimes with extensions) with suppliers to ensure short lead-times on demand.

It also helps with planning & budgeting as the pricing formula is known.

Here is the story relating to the extension of the last contract:

Contract extension with Network Rail | British Steel

We're continuing to supply high-quality rails to Network Rail with lengths up to 216m. We've agreed a 2-year contract extension to provide 200,000 tonnes of rail.

britishsteel.co.uk

On the same site you will find stories relating to similar contracts with TFL, Belgian, Italian and Irish railways.

 

[tomuk]

Agree, all this optimism about NR setting up a supply for conductor rail is wishful thinking by those who advocate continuing expansion of the network as if the safety issue has gone away.

There is no safety issue all the third rail trains operating in the south east and Merseyside right now are evidence thereof.

 

[AM9]

There is no safety issue all the third rail trains operating in the south east and Merseyside right now are evidence thereof.

I can't find any online definitive figures of electrocution on the railway (OLE or 3rd rail) but there have been plenty of posts by members who clearly do have information here on RUK highlighting the higher number of deaths and injuries per mile of track on 3rd rail compared to OLE routes. Evidence of trains running under grandfather rights does not obviate the safety issues that exposed conductors at ground level present. No significant 3rd rail electrification has been authorised since the ORR declared its change of policy.
Maybe you should read this thread with many entries from rail workers.

 

[tomuk]

I can't find any online definitive figures of electrocution on the railway (OLE or 3rd rail) but there have been plenty of posts by members who clearly do have information here on RUK highlighting the higher number of deaths and injuries per mile of track on 3rd rail compared to OLE routes. Evidence of trains running under grandfather rights does not obviate the safety issues that exposed conductors at ground level present. No significant 3rd rail electrification has been authorised since the ORR declared its change of policy.
Maybe you should read this thread with many entries from rail workers.

That is just incorrect and the ORR are wrong.

 

[skyhigh]

but I believe as northern is doing in the north with its metro services, the remaining third rail should stay as is

Northern have no units that run on 3rd rail, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

(Yes they do have 319s, but they never run on 3rd rail).

 

[Wolfie]

Northern have no units that run on 3rd rail, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

(Yes they do have 319s, but they never run on 3rd rail).

Methinks that someone thinks that Merseyrail is part of Northern.

 

[AM9]

That is just incorrect and the ORR are wrong.

Did you bother to read the linked thread? Or are you so self-assured in your own opinion that everybody else including fellow RUK members and the ORR are wrong? No point in discussing it then.

 

[tomuk]

Did you bother to read the linked thread? Or are you so self-assured in your own opinion that everybody else including fellow RUK members and the ORR are wrong? No point in discussing it then.

I've read the thread and it is just very anecdotal and if anything it supports the view that third rail should be respected and treated with caution but not fear.

It isn't my opinion against everybody else there are many other people who think the ORR are wrong, see the latest re-evaluation and loosening of the effective moratorium after pressure from within the industry. The RSSB report that the ORR based their 'ban' on took no due account of the outcomes of the reported accidents. The report proffers that third rail is more dangerous purely based on the frequency of accident not severity. Putting it simply with 750V DC a number of the reported accidents result in minor or no injuries whereas 25kv accidents nearly all end in death or serious injury.

 

[Bald Rick]

Putting it simply with 750V DC a number of the reported accidents result in minor or no injuries whereas 25kv accidents nearly all end in death or serious injury.

Tell that to the family of the guy who died whilst trespassing last week

 

[tomuk]

Tell that to the family of the guy who died whilst trespassing last week

So we just ignore statistics then? What do you tell the family of the lad killed by OHL trespassing at Daventry? Sorry for your loss but OHL is safe?

 

[Dr Hoo]

So we just ignore statistics then? What do you tell the family of the lad killed by OHL trespassing at Daventry? Sorry for your loss but OHL is safe?

Have you ever attended a Coroner's Inquest into a third rail electrocution of a nine-year-old who wandered onto the line through a hole cut by rail staff as a short cut to a depot? I have, and can assure you that any glib words about 'never mind that, what about the air quality?' would not have gone down well.

This was within months of a very experienced 'ETM' track engineer getting electrocuted right next to me because of a procedural lapse.

Ever since then I have been very uncomfortable about third rails. This is despite me having worked around them in North London, on Merseyside and on the Southern earlier in my career.

 

[Bald Rick]

So we just ignore statistics then?

No we don’t. Compare the stats of trespassers being electrocuted on the third rail with those on the OLE, normalised by route mile of electrification.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Northern have no units that run on 3rd rail, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

(Yes they do have 319s, but they never run on 3rd rail).

Methinks that someone thinks that Merseyrail is part of Northern.

Sorry I worded that really poorly, I was referring to northern using domestic national rail services with metro branding as an integrated rapid transit network. with how dense the south east is it's likely the rolling stock used will reflect on this as well, with longer, more spacious fixed formation trains like the 700s, 707s and 701s reaching most parts of the 3rd rail network

Really, where is Northern doing this? Having both systems at the same time on the same track is a nightmare, or are you saying just only convert some lines not the whole third rail network?

I haven't been on northern that much, but the services around Leeds and Bradford are branded "M" on the stations keeping in line with their local bus networks

 

[tomuk]

No we don’t. Compare the stats of trespassers being electrocuted on the third rail with those on the OLE, normalised by route mile of electrification.

I would hazard a guess that third rail is slightly higher but still overall a small number. And I'm sure with suitably designed fencing and other passive anti trespass measures implemented on any third rail extensions it could be lowered further.