Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[ThameslinkUser]

they are mainly fast services anyways

They are all shacks south of Gatwick.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HS2 construction should have started from Golborne and Leeds and worked South, rather than starting from London and working North.

At the point construction started, definitely not. The most important thing HS2 was going to do was relieve the south WCML and so that was the priority.

This is less pressing now post COVID (it's still an issue, but not anything like the issue it was), but construction has already started.

Very controversial, but Brighton to Bedford and Peterborough to Horsham should be classed as intercity, they are mainly fast services anyways, so why not transfer them to intercity

Because they're not. They're London commuter services that are connected to each other for the purpose of offering a wider choice of destination within London.

 

[Jimini]

Shall we go back to calling them "Thameslink CityFlyer" again?

 

[py_megapixel]

HS2 construction should have started from Golborne and Leeds and worked South, rather than starting from London and working North.

Yes, I'd agree with that. If it's meant to be a "levelling up" project for the north, then they should have put the money where their mouth is and built the bit in the north first (preferably including Northern Powerhouse Rail). That way when the money ran out we'd still have been left with excellent long-distance connectivity within the north (achieving the "levelling up" objective) rather than just another line from London to Birmingham.

 

[JamieL]

HS2 was misnamed and should be called IC (Increased Capacity) 1.

I don't think that would apply to Scotland though either if the rumours of trains splitting at Carlisle are true. It could mean less capacity for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[PGAT]

And it’s not misnamed! It’s a high speed project and the 2nd one we have done

 

[jfowkes]

Yes, I'd agree with that. If it's meant to be a "levelling up" project for the north, then they should have put the money where their mouth is and built the bit in the north first (preferably including Northern Powerhouse Rail). That way when the money ran out we'd still have been left with excellent long-distance connectivity within the north (achieving the "levelling up" objective) rather than just another line from London to Birmingham.

I agree with this. Regardless of the capacity needs on the WCML, the politically canny thing to do would have been to start Phase 2 first. It would be politically insanity to stop or pare back those builds once they'd started, given the promises to level up the Midlands and the North.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that would apply to Scotland though either if the rumours of trains splitting at Carlisle are true. It could mean less capacity for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

The "with Golborne" service provides 400m per hour from London to Glasgow (2 x 200m) which is an increase of about 135m of train. For Edinburgh it'd be a reduction if you removed ECML services but I'm not aware of a proposal to do that (though they might be slowed down a bit).

Without Golborne it's more or less as is. Glasgow gets a 200m train per hour (plus the classic line "via Brum") which is 65m shorter than an 11 car Pendolino, but with most stops removed so it will mostly only contain Glasgow passengers. A separate stopping train to Lancaster provides the capacity to the intermediate stations.

 

[eldomtom2]

I agree with this. Regardless of the capacity needs on the WCML, the politically canny thing to do would have been to start Phase 2 first. It would be politically insanity to stop or pare back those builds once they'd started, given the promises to level up the Midlands and the North.

Again, I would suggest looking at California - the Tories would have their knives out for a HS2 that started at Phase 2 first.

 

[Thirteen]

With the weather we're having at the point, the suggestion of bringing back the Pacers should be consigned to the bin!

 

[Krokodil]

He

Nah the name is fine but people just don't want actually understand the project because it has nothing to do with their cars.

Very aptly put.

At the point construction started, definitely not. The most important thing HS2 was going to do was relieve the south WCML and so that was the priority.

For political reasons though it should have been. It's a lot harder to descope if you leave the core until last. That said, Euston should have been built initially too, as that has been descoped and deferred.

I don't think that would apply to Scotland though either if the rumours of trains splitting at Carlisle are true. It could mean less capacity for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

390/1 has 589 seats. 807s (which I'm using as a convenient modern example of almost the 200m length) have 453 each which does mean a loss of capacity between Glasgow and Carlisle, but 1006 seats south thereof - reservations for Preston can be targeted into one portion or the other to maximise the use of seats.

There will be more frequent Glasgow-Birmingham trains than at present too, which will provide extra capacity for anyone wanting the intermediate stops. If you wanted to boost it further then lengthen the remaining platforms to 400m and combine the Brum - Glasgow/Edinburgh services into an hourly train serving both.

A Lancaster to Euston stopping service is also part of the plan, again taking the intermediate traffic away.

For Edinburgh it'd be a reduction if you removed ECML services but I'm not aware of a proposal to do that (though they might be slowed down a bit).

I do wonder why the (suspended) Eastern Leg trains were supposed to terminate at Newcastle, rather than continuing to Edinburgh. It would knock an extra ten minutes off of the London - Edinburgh timings and again provide extra capacity for a flow that appears to be booming. The existing ECML services can have stops added to serve more places once the need for fast timings has been usurped by the new route.

ECML north capacity (electrical as well as signalling) may need work to achieve this.

 

[jfowkes]

Again, I would suggest looking at California - the Tories would have their knives out for a HS2 that started at Phase 2

You'll have to be more specific with the Californian comparison, I know the project has had a lot of challenges but I'm not sure how it compares politically and economically to HS2 in detail.

 

[eldomtom2]

You'll have to be more specific with the Californian comparison, I know the project has had a lot of challenges but I'm not sure how it compares politically and economically to HS2 in detail.

The Californian high-speed rail project, intended to eventually connect Los Angeles with San Francisco over 520 miles, started construction with a 171-mile middle section in the economically deprived Central Valley, and thus far construction of other segments has not begun. "It's costing $X billion to only connect Merced (pop 86,000) with Bakersfield (pop 403,000)" is a common line of attack. Of course, whether or not it would have made more sense to start with one of the difficult mountain pass segments is certainly an open question, and investment in the deprived Central Valley helped to pass a public referendum to fund the project via bonds. I'm just pointing out that starting with the less populated and more economically deprived sections first opens one up to accusations of not building a useful railway.

 

[al78]

Very controversial, but Brighton to Bedford and Peterborough to Horsham should be classed as intercity, they are mainly fast services anyways, so why not transfer them to intercity

Peterborough to Horsham isn't a fast service. Nothing that stops at Coulsdon South, Merstham, Horley, Ifield, Faygate and Littlehaven as well as all the primary stations could be classed as a fast service.

He

Nah the name is fine but people just don't want actually understand the project because it has nothing to do with their cars.

It is because like Brexit, it has been framed by the media as something it isn't and the cost of the project has been emphasised.

 

[PacerTrain142]

With the weather we're having at the point, the suggestion of bringing back the Pacers should be consigned to the bin!

I’ve rode pacers in hot weather and felt fine because with all the opening windows you get a nice air. I once rode a 158 with broken aircon on a hot day and it was horrible as no opening windows.

Currently travelling back from Weston Super Mare on a lovely air conditioned GWR 166. But I wish it was a 143. I do miss the GWR 143’s.

 

[12LDA28C]

And it’s not misnamed! It’s a high speed project and the 2nd one we have done

Except that the average man in the street thinks HS2 is all about 'saving 20 minutes on a journey to London' when in reality it's not about that at all. It's funny that most of the anti-HS2 brigade haven't got a clue why it's actually being built.

 

[jfowkes]

It's funny that most of the anti-HS2 brigade haven't got a clue why it's actually being built.

Most of the media information about HS2 focusses on speed. Even a lot of output from HS2 Ltd itself is about journey time improvements.

Speed is easy-to-understand and is a "prestige" feature. Compare that to the rather mundane and slightly more complicated "more space for local trains and freight" and it's easy to see why speed is the thing that people talk about.

 

[renegademaster]

It's all relative though, isn't it? To the average person on a vastly inflated London salary, £10k a year is loose change!

My job title would only be few grand less in Manchester, it's not as dramatic as people think (outside of finance). The only reason I really stay here is family.

 

[OLJR]

A pair of kippers, served on the bone, is the only acceptable meal to be served on InterCity services departing before 11am.

 

[Ediswan]

A pair of kippers, served on the bone, is the only acceptable meal to be served on InterCity services departing before 11am.

They were nice, but sometimes too much to finish.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm just pointing out that starting with the less populated and more economically deprived sections first opens one up to accusations of not building a useful railway.

I think that the key thing is that the whole project should have gone through under one act, as originally intended.

California is a much bigger project, all-in.

 

[jfowkes]

'm just pointing out that starting with the less populated and more economically deprived sections first opens one up to accusations of not building a useful railway.

I can see that, though I think you'd be hard pressed to accuse Phase 2 of not being useful. If it were connecting Cambridge to Norwich or something they might have a point, but it's Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester, three of the biggest cities in the UK.

 

[Krokodil]

I can see that, though I think you'd be hard pressed to accuse Phase 2 of not being useful. If it were connecting Cambridge to Norwich or something they might have a point, but it's Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester, three of the biggest cities in the UK.

It's far less useful on its own than as part of the whole. In the same way that it would be far more useful if NPR were piggybacking onto it's infrastructure.

 

[JamieL]

390/1 has 589 seats. 807s (which I'm using as a convenient modern example of almost the 200m length) have 453 each which does mean a loss of capacity between Glasgow and Carlisle, but 1006 seats south thereof - reservations for Preston can be targeted into one portion or the other to maximise the use of seats.

There will be more frequent Glasgow-Birmingham trains than at present too, which will provide extra capacity for anyone wanting the intermediate stops. If you wanted to boost it further then lengthen the remaining platforms to 400m and combine the Brum - Glasgow/Edinburgh services into an hourly train serving both.

A Lancaster to Euston stopping service is also part of the plan, again taking the intermediate traffic away.

That is a pretty outrageous situation for Scotland. In my experience the trains leaving GLC can be fairly full so reducing the capacity by 100+ seats is intolerable.

Perhaps the controversial opinion for this thread then is to force HS2 services to terminate at the border and the Scottish Government fund ScotRail to provide a better express service to Carlisle.

 

[Krokodil]

That is a pretty outrageous situation for Scotland. In my experience the trains leaving GLC can be fairly full so reducing the capacity by 100+ seats is intolerable.

How many of those passengers are going to London, and how many are going to Carlisle/Lancaster/Preston/Wigan? If there are plenty of the latter then the number of seats available for them will increase considerably.

 

[JamieL]

How many of those passengers are going to London, and how many are going to Carlisle/Lancaster/Preston/Wigan? If there are plenty of the latter then the number of seats available for them will increase considerably.

I am not sure that matters? If the trains are fairly full now when leaving GLC, how is reducing 100+ seats from Glasgow to Carlisle going to improve the experience for passengers. 'Don't worry, you'll only have to stand for an hour' isn't the best marketing slogan to sell a brand new multi-£billion railway to its Scottish customers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not sure that matters?

It matters because the intermediate passengers won't be on that train and thus it'll be quieter.

 

[PacerTrain142]

I went on a GWR 166 between Bristol Temple Meeds and Weston Super Mare and quite enjoyed the ride. Cross Country 170 not bad either. Was lovely and cool on there yesterday.

Northern should swap their 156’s with GWR’s 166’s. Northern should swap their 195’s with Cross Country’s 170’s.

 

[xotGD]

You should be able to bank delays. So four 15+ minute delays equates to a one hour delay and you get a free return ticket.

 

[12LDA28C]

I went on a GWR 166 between Bristol Temple Meeds and Weston Super Mare and quite enjoyed the ride. Cross Country 170 not bad either. Was lovely and cool on there yesterday.

Northern should swap their 156’s with GWR’s 166’s. Northern should swap their 195’s with Cross Country’s 170’s.

Is this supposed to be controversial? Or just your own personal preference? Either way it's not going to happen.