Severe weather Saturday 7th October, some ScotRail services suspended.

[Wivenswold]

How many football matches in Scotland will fall into the "big event" category today? Most matches in Scotland will be attended by locals who don't travel by train.

Every match is an away fixture for one of the teams and it would be wrong to assume that football fans support their local team. Most associate with the club that was local to them as a youngster or one of the more successful teams when they were growing up.
While some games may on paper seem to be somewhat irrelevant, just putting on a football match in the lower leagues means travel for 50-75 people including players, officials, coaching staff, security, police, stadium staff. Then add anywhere between 50 and 2,000 away supporters criss-crossing the country for 40 league games........add a disrupted road and rail network.

 

[Deepgreen]

Having posted yesterday that rail services are suspended for this sort of weather but roads remain open, now the BBC is now reporting that several roads are impassable and ten motorists have been airlifted out. Perhaps the rail/road playing field should be more level in the face of this sort of circumstance and roads should also be closed in advance?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-67038965

Extract from the BBC text below:

1. The persistent rain has already caused landslips, train cancellations and road closures
2. A Coastguard helicopter airlifts 10 people whose cars were stuck on flooded and muddy roads in Argyll and Bute
3. The Met Office said areas of the Highlands and central Scotland could see up to a month's worth of rain

 

[Falcon1200]

To the extent that everyone is forced onto the roads at such times ...

Used to be that rail was the bad weather alternative to rely on. Now the opposite.

Roads are now seriously affected too, and (so far) no-one has had to be airlifted from a stranded train.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-67038965

Ten people have been airlifted from their vehicles after landslides closed two roads in Scotland.

A number of vehicles were stuck on the A83 and A815 in Argyll and Bute and an HM Coastguard helicopter was used to remove them to safety.

 

[greyman42]

Engineering works for East Coast rail journeys today between Newcastle and Edinburgh (via Morpeth/Berwick) been planned for weeks, I believe.

Rail replacement buses are running.

 

[skyhigh]

Embarrassing. I would be ashamed to wear a railway uniform

At least the passengers know they tried if they actually do get stuck. It’s the thought that counts

Pathetic, inept, useless, incompetent, crap. Rip up the rails and put more tarmac down.

Well these quotes aged well... I think given the evidence of motorists being airlifted, heavy flooding, landslides etc that in this case the decision was perfectly justified.

 

[Class83]

Having posted yesterday that rail services are suspended for this sort of weather but roads remain open, now the BBC is now reporting that several roads are impassable and ten motorists have been airlifted out. Perhaps the rail/road playing field should be more level in the face of this sort of circumstance and roads should also be closed in advance?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-67038965

Extract from the BBC text below:

1. The persistent rain has already caused landslips, train cancellations and road closures
2. A Coastguard helicopter airlifts 10 people whose cars were stuck on flooded and muddy roads in Argyll and Bute
3. The Met Office said areas of the Highlands and central Scotland could see up to a month's worth of rain

The roads closed seem to be predominantly in the area covered by the Amber weather warning, i.e. Argyll and Bute, Stiringshire, western parts of Perthshire and southern Highlands. Thus the decision to close the WHL and other routes in that area seems sensible and based on the Met Office warning. I haven't actually seen the Network Rail closure notices, but from the limited services being run, it looks like they may have called it right in terms of the lines to fully close, while other routes remain open with reduced speed limits.

What is harder to justify, and seems to have now been remedied by a limited service running at reduced speed near Glasgow, was the immediate announcements that all services North of Preston will be cancelled forthwith, this seems to be primarily for TOC convenience with little consideration for passengers going about their business in areas currently experiencing very pleasant weather for October.

Perhaps Network North could be extended to include investment in weather hardening core routes, i.e. WCML, Edinburgh to Glasgow (Winchburgh tunnel is getting silly now) and the ECML extending to Aberdeen.

 

[Huntergreed]

Well these quotes aged well... I think given the evidence of motorists being airlifted, heavy flooding, landslides etc that in this case the decision was perfectly justified.

Taken out of context, as you have done, yes…

These quotes were referring to the track from Carstairs to Carlisle (they are a thread of replies to an original post which mentions this)

They are not suggesting action shouldn’t have been taken in the areas where the weather warning was in place.

People are not frustrated about action being taken in the areas affected (or forecasted to be affected). This is sensible and ensuring safety, and 99% of posters I’m sure would agree.

People are frustrated that the weather in Glasgow and Stirling has stopped trains running between Preston and Carlisle (and many more, totally unaffected areas).

 

[3RDGEN]

Having posted yesterday that rail services are suspended for this sort of weather but roads remain open, now the BBC is now reporting that several roads are impassable and ten motorists have been airlifted out. Perhaps the rail/road playing field should be more level in the face of this sort of circumstance and roads should also be closed in advance?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-67038965

Extract from the BBC text below:

1. The persistent rain has already caused landslips, train cancellations and road closures
2. A Coastguard helicopter airlifts 10 people whose cars were stuck on flooded and muddy roads in Argyll and Bute
3. The Met Office said areas of the Highlands and central Scotland could see up to a month's worth of rain

They did announce part of the A83 was to close back on Thursday due to the forecast. What they didn't do is just blanket close routes on the East Coast of Scotland or south of Glasgow. The HML is closed to Sunday morning, Traffic Scotland are reporting no issues on the A9 route.

"https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23836262.a83-rest-thankful-shut-landslip-fears/"

"SCOTLAND's most notorious road is set to be out of action for three days for safety reasons.

Road maintenance workers are due to close the A83 at the Rest And Be Thankful which is vulnerable to landslides on Friday.

When the crucial Highland's artery is shut, motorists are sent onto a single track route, the Old Military Road (OMR), which runs through the centre of Glen Croe and acts as a diversion using a convoy system.

Scottish Government-appointed maintenance firm Bear Scotland has said that decisions taken were the result of continuing forecasts of rain and "high hillside saturation levels".

The road is expected to be out of action from 7pm on Friday to the end of Sunday, subject to outcomes of hillside inspections."

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A few photos have already been posted from Bowling, here's a video of it

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0hSxTWsfFb3GMbyaxhfD11ZfwxJ1potxJvx5KJPVAdcHeg6Fui4r8soEZNwtdU3GRl&id=100064480008321

Is that down to the River Clyde flooding?

 

[Unstoppable]

Well these quotes aged well... I think given the evidence of motorists being airlifted, heavy flooding, landslides etc that in this case the decision was perfectly justified.

Motorists are not professional drivers. The vast majority run into danger and look no further than their bonnet. A few land slips on a road network is completely different from the railway which should be maintained and inspected to military precision to prevent a service disruption. Comment disregarded

 

[josh-j]

Convince the government to properly fund maintenance and inspection then.

 

[Unstoppable]

Convince the government to properly fund maintenance and inspection then.

Do you see the government funding every other business that cries wolf? If you’re all too willing to reap the success of a company then you should be willing to embrace the downfalls too. The railway has ran for hundreds of years in adverse weather yet as soon as the Carmont fatalities occur everyone is seen as mindless and wreckless. Something doesn’t add up

 

[Hellzapoppin]

So your suggestions for dealing with adverse weather such as experienced today are?

 

[londonmidland]

Unfortunately more events like this could repeat itself over the coming weeks up and down the country.

A stubborn area of high pressure is sat to the east of us, with several low pressure systems forecast to make landfall from the Atlantic. Rather than zipping through from the west and exiting to the east, the low pressure systems get stuck over the UK, delivering high amounts of rainfall.

One to watch.

 

[Horizon22]

Do you see the government funding every other business that cries wolf? If you’re all too willing to reap the success of a company then you should be willing to embrace the downfalls too. The railway has ran for hundreds of years in adverse weather yet as soon as the Carmont fatalities occur everyone is seen as mindless and wreckless. Something doesn’t add up

Maybe the weather is getting more adverse, extreme and unpredictable than it has been for the past hundreds of years? Perhaps that will help with the "adding up"

Society is also much less likely to tolerant services being stranded and god forbid injuiries and casualties than they were even decades ago as "just one of those things".

 

[Unstoppable]

Maybe the weather is getting more adverse, extreme and unpredictable than it has been for the past hundreds of years? Perhaps that will help with the "adding up"

Society is also much less likely to tolerant services being stranded and god forbid injuiries and casualties than they were even decades ago as "just one of those things".

Sounds to me the railway isn’t fit for purpose if it can’t adapt to the world we live in today? Time to adjust and adapt or lift those rails and replace them with tarmac

 

[Huntergreed]

Sounds to me the railway isn’t fit for purpose if it can’t adapt to the world we live in today? Time to adjust and adapt or lift those rails and replace them with tarmac

Do you realise how ludicrous this sounds?

We have the oldest railway in the world.

We can’t just “adapt” our infrastructure overnight to deal with significantly more inclement weather in the face of climate change which we never predicted 100 years ago.

 

[21C101]

Carmont was not long ago, folks! If we want a railway that works in our new extremes of weather then we need money to improve the infrastructure, not trains heading out with drivers braced to die in collisions with landslips...

That was a freak and tragic accident (although I am astonished the train wasn't cautioned given it was returning to base due to the weather blocking the line).

The result of turning tragedies like this into crimes, monstering the people involved and fining them millions (and attempting to imprison them for years on corporate manslaughter charges) is the shutting of stable doors after horses departure. Expect major precautionary disruption every time it is a bit rainy or windy henceforth.

The safest railway is a closed railway.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Maybe the weather is getting more adverse, extreme and unpredictable than it has been for the past hundreds of years?

Could be. Or, in parts of the U.K., just decidedly wetter.

Society is also much less likely to tolerant services being stranded and god forbid injuiries and casualties than they were even decades ago as "just one of those things".

Perhaps modern day weather forecasting has become more accurate / predictive. Fairly sure that in the past, a spell of adverse weather was sometimes only determined / confirmed after the event.

 

[josh-j]

Sounds to me the railway isn’t fit for purpose if it can’t adapt to the world we live in today? Time to adjust and adapt or lift those rails and replace them with tarmac

It is an underfunded public service. The railway as a whole is not a business. The way to adapt it is to fund it properly. It won't just happen by itself. That's why I say the government needs to fund it properly.

Ripping up the rails and replacing with tarmac would just reduce the carrying capacity and lengthen journey times, and still need public funding for all the maintenance - and still be prone to flooding anyway.

Not sure why you're on here, a railway forum, if you just want all the railways turned into roads.

 

[Unstoppable]

Do you realise how ludicrous this sounds?

We have the oldest railway in the world.

We can’t just “adapt” our infrastructure overnight to deal with significantly more inclement weather in the face of climate change which we never predicted 100 years ago.

So instead we just sit here and mourn what could be? That is an excellent plan for the future

It is an underfunded public service. The railway as a whole is not a business. The way to adapt it is to fund it properly. It won't just happen by itself. That's why I say the government needs to fund it properly.

Ripping up the rails and replacing with tarmac would just reduce the carrying capacity and lengthen journey times, and still need public funding for all the maintenance - and still be prone to flooding anyway.

Not sure why you're on here, a railway forum, if you just want all the railways turned into roads.

There was me thinking a business sold products

 

[josh-j]

So instead we just sit here and mourn what could be? That is an excellent plan for the future


There was me thinking a business sold products

Yes, well who is selling what? Revenue goes to the government, who also fund the services in the first place. There are private companies there in the middle but the railway as a whole is not a business, it is an (overly) complex mix of entities. Buying a ticket isn't the same as buying a product which then lets the company make more products; ticket revenue doesn't fund services - it just goes to government and then they decide on top of that what services need to run. So what the railway can or can't do is directly dependent on what the government sees fit to fund.

Railways are a key part of public transport infrastructure. Most other countries have no problem treating them as such and funding them accordingly, but here we seem obsessed with everything having to "make money". Except that if you used the same criteria they'd all be left to fall apart because maintaining them doesn't directly gain revenue. Same goes for railways yet we get all the government lines about profits and such.

You don't call a public park a business, and demand that admission fees are such that the park can make a profit otherwise it has to close. You don't say parks have to adapt and change with the times if they start looking badly maintained and struggling to stay open - you spend the money needed to make them work, because they're a public good. What you're saying is not that much different to if I said that roads should be closed if they can't adapt to changing weather conditions, because some of them got flooded and people had to be airlifted out. Roads aren't a business, they're funded by the government. So are railways.

Anyway this is all off topic

 

[Unstoppable]

Yes, well who is selling what? Revenue goes to the government, who also fund the services in the first place. There are private companies there in the middle but the railway as a whole is not a business, it is an (overly) complex mix of entities. Buying a ticket isn't the same as buying a product which then lets the company make more products; ticket revenue doesn't fund services - it just goes to government and then they decide on top of that what services need to run. So what the railway can or can't do is directly dependent on what the government sees fit to fund.

Railways are a key part of public transport infrastructure. Most other countries have no problem treating them as such and funding them accordingly, but here we seem obsessed with everything having to "make money". Except that if you used the same criteria they'd all be left to fall apart because maintaining them doesn't directly gain revenue. Same goes for railways yet we get all the government lines about profits and such.

You don't call a public park a business, and demand that admission fees are such that the park can make a profit otherwise it has to close. You don't say parks have to adapt and change with the times if they start looking badly maintained and struggling to stay open - you spend the money needed to make them work, because they're a public good. What you're saying is not that much different to if I said that roads should be closed if they can't adapt to changing weather conditions, because some of them got flooded and people had to be airlifted out. Roads aren't a business, they're funded by the government. So are railways.

Anyway this is all off topic

The railway call travellers customers and a customer is a person who buys goods or services from a shop or business.

 

[Falcon1200]

People are frustrated that the weather in Glasgow and Stirling has stopped trains running between Preston and Carlisle (and many more, totally unaffected areas).

I do wonder whether a reason for closing the WCML in Scotland was concern over high river levels resulting in bridges being closed; Such as, for example, the infamous structure at Lamington. It is a major issue elsewhere, such as Dalguise Viaduct on the Highland Main Line; Heavy rain results in the flow from dams being greatly increased to avoid overtopping, something beyond the railway's control.

 

[Taunton]

Engineering works for East Coast rail journeys today between Newcastle and Edinburgh (via Morpeth/Berwick) been planned for weeks, I believe.

Surprising how the weather can be too bad to run trains but not bad enough to go out and do engineering works.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Surprising how the weather can be too bad to run trains but not bad enough to go out and do engineering works.

Not sure what your point is. Was the weather in the Northumberland area forecast to be that bad today?

 

[Falcon1200]

Surprising how the weather can be too bad to run trains but not bad enough to go out and do engineering works.

The engineering work is not in the area covered by either of the Amber Weather Warnings.

 

[chiltern trev]

It looks like the pumps at Dalmuir are overwhelmed:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailSCOT/status/1710641120286233019

Is there any equipment, like signalling cabinets etc, in this water which needs drying out or is all such equipment at a higher level?

Presumably anything to do with the pumps is fully waterproofed and can withstand total flooding so the pumps keep going until all the water is gone.

 

[43096]

The engineering work is not in the area covered by either of the Amber Weather Warnings.

Some of the service abandonment was not in the area covered by the weather warnings, either. That is what is annoying people.

 

[Some guy]

Regardless of the atrocious weather in Scotland, I think that Avanti's decision not to run anything North of Preston needs to be reviewed.

I agree it seems to be because wolves or Euston can be staffed onto the services if they get turned around at Preston as that’s the furthest they sign