TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[crablab]

however I think moving purely to the backoffice will be the long-term progress as getting a signal everywhere becomes possible.

From a resiliency perspective, I'm not sure that kind of centralisation would be desirable. There is a general trend, in my experience, to offloading processing to geographically proximate and independent edge locations to help with scaling and redundancy.

But I fear we're going off topic

 

[Haywain]

But I fear we're going off topic

You are, but as the thread is otherwise just going round in circles it may not matter!

 

[Bletchleyite]

From a resiliency perspective, I'm not sure that kind of centralisation would be desirable. There is a general trend, in my experience, to offloading processing to geographically proximate and independent edge locations to help with scaling and redundancy.

Which could mean each station downloads all e-tickets valid that day, and only makes a call up to the main backoffice if it sees one that hasn't yet downloaded, of course.

The downside of holding lots of data locally (be that Oyster or e-tickets) is that you need the whole thing to convey validity, not just a short code (PNRs typically being 6 characters) to identify it.

But I fear we're going off topic

Fair point

 

[miklcct]

Ever been to Istanbul? The Istanbulkart (their Oyster) is the only means of paying for public transport. You get one and use it, it's not a problem at all.

Is it the only mean? Last time I visited Istanbul there were still token tickets available at an inflated price.

Check the "electronic ticket" section on the website.

 

[CyrusWuff]

You are, but as the thread is otherwise just going round in circles it may not matter!

Given the current project, surely going round in ovals would be a better comparison? (I'll get my coat.)

 

[redreni]

Do that many people who rarely travel out of London have Network Railcards and buy paper tickets, though?

Merseyrail abolished Railcards for "internal" use by replacing their off peak day singles/returns with day tickets, and almost nobody complained. I don't agree with it (they could have discounted the day tickets) but it hasn't been controversial at all, really.

I'd be inclined to bet that the sales of the ticket you mention (off peak 1-6 Travelcard with NSE discount) is probably in the low tens per day if that. You hardly ever see anyone using a paper ticket at Tube gates these days, even at mainline stations.

3 million odd people live in zones 5 and 6.

There's no reason to believe either that they rarely travel outside London or that they don't want to travel into or via zone 1 at the weekend more than 6 times a year (which is all that's needed to recoup the layout on the Network Railcard even if you never go anywhere else).

If not many people buy this ticket it's due to a combination of factors, including that they've been misled by TfL into thinking PAYG is the cheapest way to travel and they don't know that they can buy this ticket, but also including the fact that large numbers of the exact people who should be buying this particular ticket will instead drive across London at weekends (not necessarily to zone 1 - though many do drive at least part of the way to zone 1 destinations - but to other parts of London that would be best reached on public transport via zone 1).

 

[Haywain]

Given the current project, surely going round in ovals would be a better comparison? (I'll get my coat.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

If not many people buy this ticket it's due to a combination of factors, including that they've been misled by TfL into thinking PAYG is the cheapest way to travel and they don't know that they can buy this ticket, but also including the fact that large numbers of the exact people who should be buying this particular ticket will instead drive across London at weekends (not necessarily to zone 1 - though many do drive at least part of the way to zone 1 destinations - but to other parts of London that would be best reached on public transport via zone 1).

A lot of people will use PAYG because it's more convenient. Faffing about buying a ticket is, well, faff.

TBH I've never understood why TfL accept Railcards outside of their National Rail services, anyway. No other non-National Rail urban metro does, nor any bus services.

 

[jon81uk]

3 million odd people live in zones 5 and 6.

There's no reason to believe either that they rarely travel outside London or that they don't want to travel into or via zone 1 at the weekend more than 6 times a year (which is all that's needed to recoup the layout on the Network Railcard even if you never go anywhere else).

If not many people buy this ticket it's due to a combination of factors, including that they've been misled by TfL into thinking PAYG is the cheapest way to travel and they don't know that they can buy this ticket, but also including the fact that large numbers of the exact people who should be buying this particular ticket will instead drive across London at weekends (not necessarily to zone 1 - though many do drive at least part of the way to zone 1 destinations - but to other parts of London that would be best reached on public transport via zone 1).

Don't think its just that TfL are misleading, the Network Railcard is not their product, its a National Rail one and not advertised well.

 

[redreni]

Don't think its just that TfL are misleading, the Network Railcard is not their product, its a National Rail one and not advertised well.

Well, yeah, it's not for TfL to promote railcards and I wouldn't object to them pushing contactless on the basis that the caps are cheaper than paper tickets if the availability (if any) of railcard discounts was the same with contactless as it is with day travelcards and other paper tickets.

I'm all for progress but you can't expect passengers to be happy about the rollout of contactless payments being used as a way of making discounts that were easy to get before more difficult, if not impossible, to get.

 

[MikeWM]

I also don't see a significant problem with the only methods of payment in London being Oyster or contactless. Most people will use the latter, the former is there mainly for those who prefer cash.

As I've previously mentioned in this thread, there's also the 'blank cheque' element of contactless. To some of us contactless (in the way TfL do it, as opposed to doing it at a point of sale terminal) is the modern equivalent of writing a blank cheque and trusting the relevant corporation to fill in the correct amount. No-one in their right mind would have done that in the 1980s or 1990s, yet for some reason many seem content with doing what is effectively the same idea today.

The same issue is there with Oyster but at least it feels limited to the amount you've put on the Oyster card, rather than your entire current account. Not ideal but a bit better.

(Yes, I prefer cash *anyway*, but this is a separate issue from that).

Personally if I'm buying a product or service I want to authorise how much I'm being charged beforehand, where I can decide to agree to the offered price or not. I'm very opposed to moving to any system where this is no longer an option - it is a massive change in how the basics of transactions are undertaken (and, as ever, a massive shift in power from the individual to the faceless corporations).

 

[redreni]

A lot of people will use PAYG because it's more convenient. Faffing about buying a ticket is, well, faff.

TBH I've never understood why TfL accept Railcards outside of their National Rail services, anyway. No other non-National Rail urban metro does, nor any bus services.

I'm going to Oxford twice next month and I fully intend to get a Network Railcard discount on my bus fare by means of a Plusbus ticket. I appreciate that's only available in conjunction with a train journey, but still.

 

[Haywain]

I wouldn't object to them pushing contactless on the basis that the caps are cheaper than paper tickets if the availability (if any) of railcard discounts was the same with contactless as it is with day travelcards and other paper tickets.

It appears that from January you will have your wish.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I've previously mentioned in this thread, there's also the 'blank cheque' element of contactless. To some of us contactless (in the way TfL do it, as opposed to doing it at a point of sale terminal) is the modern equivalent of writing a blank cheque and trusting the relevant corporation to fill in the correct amount. No-one in their right mind would have done that in the 1980s or 1990s, yet for some reason many seem content with doing what is effectively the same idea today.

The same issue is there with Oyster but at least it feels limited to the amount you've put on the Oyster card, rather than your entire current account. Not ideal but a bit better.

(Yes, I prefer cash *anyway*, but this is a separate issue from that).

Personally if I'm buying a product or service I want to authorise how much I'm being charged beforehand, where I can decide to agree to the offered price or not. I'm very opposed to moving to any system where this is no longer an option - it is a massive change in how the basics of transactions are undertaken (and, as ever, a massive shift in power from the individual to the faceless corporations).

And that's fine - you can use Oyster and load, using cash, the price of a one day cap onto it if you wish.

Yes, it'll cost you £7. Once.

It appears that from January you will have your wish.

Because there won't be any railcard discounts on Travelcards because there won't be any Travelcards?

 

[redreni]

As I've previously mentioned in this thread, there's also the 'blank cheque' element of contactless. To some of us contactless (in the way TfL do it, as opposed to doing it at a point of sale terminal) is the modern equivalent of writing a blank cheque and trusting the relevant corporation to fill in the correct amount. No-one in their right mind would have done that in the 1980s or 1990s, yet for some reason many seem content with doing what is effectively the same idea today.

The same issue is there with Oyster but at least it feels limited to the amount you've put on the Oyster card, rather than your entire current account. Not ideal but a bit better.

(Yes, I prefer cash *anyway*, but this is a separate issue from that).

Personally if I'm buying a product or service I want to authorise how much I'm being charged beforehand, where I can decide to agree to the offered price or not. I'm very opposed to moving to any system where this is no longer an option - it is a massive change in how the basics of transactions are undertaken (and, as ever, a massive shift in power from the individual to the faceless corporations).

I agree with every word of that and would add that, as contactless is rolled further and further out into the national rail network where the fare structure is, to say the least, nuanced, the likelihood of passengers knowing what they will be charged is diminishing all the time.

The level of resistance to putting price lists on display at stations baffles me.

Amazon has opened a chain of checkoutless convenience stores where you have to trust them to charge you the right amount. The blank cheque issue arises there too, but at least they have price tickets on the shelves so you know what you should be paying and can check later. Get on the Elizabeth Line at Burnham, say, and you've got to do online research to find out what the fare should have been if you want to check to make sure you were charged correctly. It's actually ridiculous.

It appears that from January you will have your wish.

There will still be through tickets. And there will be tickets to and from LU zones. I will not switch to contactless for my regular trip across London to Maidenhead, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Amazon has opened a chain of checkoutless convenience stores where you have to trust them to charge you the right amount. The blank cheque issue arises there too, but at least they have price tickets on the shelves so you know what you should be paying and can check later. Get on the Elizabeth Line at Burnham, say, and you've got to do online research to find out what the fare should have been if you want to check to make sure you were charged correctly. It's actually ridiculous.

I'm less of a fan of those because the technology is imperfect - it relies on detecting a load of different things using sensors or cameras. Working out that you tapped in at A and out at B isn't very hard (though even Oyster isn't perfect because it implements a zonal fare structure designed for paper tickets on a smartcard system, so there is the possibility of anomalies - the Dutch OV-Chipkaart system didn't do this and so will have fewer).

I'll be more trusting of this sort of store when they start using RFID tags to detect purchased items on exit, which is the equivalent of how Oyster works. However RFID tags are a bit expensive to do this on low value grocery items at present (they are used in Decathlon, where products tend to be more expensive, though - you simply drop the products in the box at a self checkout and they all ring up instantly).

 

[Richardr]

I realise there's a school of thought that the Mayor doesn't need to carry a majority of votes in the outer boroughs to win the election. That is utterly irrelevant because it's not a first past the post election. Every vote counts the same everywhere.

Minor point, but the election is first past the post. Based on last time, when the winner had 40% of first votes [when the electoral system was different], and recent opinion polls, it is likely that nobody will get anywhere near a majority, and 40% or so in total across London will win it.

 

[redreni]

Minor point, but the election is first past the post. Based on last time, when the winner had 40% of first votes [when the electoral system was different], and recent opinion polls, it is likely that nobody will get anywhere near a majority, and 40% or so in total across London will win it.

Yes, I expressed that poorly. It's a case of counting all the votes rather than counting how many Boroughs each candidate wins, is what I was trying to say.

So while the outer boroughs usually vote by a majority for the Tory candidate, that doesn't mean the margin by which they do so isn't important to the overall outcome. It is.

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note - we're starting to get off topic and move into speculative ideas. Can we keep this long standing thread on-topic which is to discuss the removal of One Day Travelcards and place speculative discussion in a separate thread.

Thanks.

 

[Starmill]

TBH I've never understood why TfL accept Railcards outside of their National Rail services, anyway. No other non-National Rail urban metro does, nor any bus services.

That's not the case. It's very common they do on combined products. The payg options are just keeping the benefits of that from the One Day Travelcard intact. Of course that is precisely why TfL don't like Network Railcards though.

 

[infobleep]

Minor point, but the election is first past the post. Based on last time, when the winner had 40% of first votes [when the electoral system was different], and recent opinion polls, it is likely that nobody will get anywhere near a majority, and 40% or so in total across London will win it.

Yes, I expressed that poorly. It's a case of counting all the votes rather than counting how many Boroughs each candidate wins, is what I was trying to say.

So while the outer boroughs usually vote by a majority for the Tory candidate, that doesn't mean the margin by which they do so isn't important to the overall outcome. It is.

If you are talking about the London Assembly elections then if I recall correctly, one votes for one or two local assembly members and then also votes for a pan-London assembly member.

They also get a second preference for the Mayor.

If I've got any of that wrong, I will learn the correct regulations next April / May in time for the next elections. I've worked as a poll clerk at every election or referendum in London for the last 9 to 10 years.

I'm going to Oxford twice next month and I fully intend to get a Network Railcard discount on my bus fare by means of a Plusbus ticket. I appreciate that's only available in conjunction with a train journey, but still

Interestingly enough, if staying overnight and only needing to use buses for 24 hours, the 24-hour bus pass is better value than the Plus Bus as Plus Bus is only valid for the date on the ticket and not 24 hours.

 

[AM9]

So to return to the actual title of this thread:

if "tfl proposes to withdraw day travelcards", then that means those currently available from TfL sale points, i.e. for in-boundary travel.​

if so, then NR stations can still sell travelcards that don't include validity LU, DLR, trams and buses, (i.e. still allowing travel on LO and the Lizzie, along with all NR services*).​

Is that the position?
* excluding SE HS1 and Avanti services

 

[JonathanH]

if so, then NR stations can still sell travelcards that don't include validity LU, DLR, trams and buses, (i.e. still allowing travel on LO and the Lizzie, along with all NR services*).Is that the position?

It has not been made clear that London Overground and the Elizabeth Line should be considered as not being TfL services for the purpose of TfL withdrawing from the Travelcard Agreement. A travelcard is pretty useless without any TfL services in any case.

 

[Hadders]

So to return to the actual title of this thread:

if "tfl proposes to withdraw day travelcards", then that means those currently available from TfL sale points, i.e. for in-boundary travel.​

if so, then NR stations can still sell travelcards that don't include validity LU, DLR, trams and buses, (i.e. still allowing travel on LO and the Lizzie, along with all NR services*).​

Is that the position?
* excluding SE HS1 and Avanti services

Yes, that's correct. But if TfL withdraw they product will disappear. There'd be little point selling it without LU/DLR/Bus/Tram validity and it would just cause confusion.

 

[AM9]

Yes, that's correct. But if TfL withdraw they product will disappear. There'd be little point selling it without LU/DLR/Bus/Tram validity and it would just cause confusion.

So will NR operators have tickets from/to all or most pairs of stations within the zones and the out boundary stations within the Network area?

 

[Hadders]

So will NR operators have tickets from/to all or most pairs of stations within the zones and the out boundary stations within the Network area?

I can't see any new tickets being introduced but there should already be tickets between each pair of stations (which are often better value than using a Travelcard) but the expectation will be to buy a ticket to the appropriate terminal and use contactless/oyster.

 

[Mojo]

If you are talking about the London Assembly elections then if I recall correctly, one votes for one or two local assembly members and then also votes for a pan-London assembly member.

They also get a second preference for the Mayor.

If I've got any of that wrong, I will learn the correct regulations next April / May in time for the next elections. I've worked as a poll clerk at every election or referendum in London for the last 9 to 10 years.

The Elections Act 2022 changed the voting system for Mayoral elections to be First Past The Post, meaning you only get one vote for Mayor from the next election.

 

[infobleep]

The Elections Act 2022 changed the voting system for Mayoral elections to be First Past The Post, meaning you only get one vote for Mayor from the next election.

Thanks for that. Interesting.

Yes, that's correct. But if TfL withdraw they product will disappear. There'd be little point selling it without LU/DLR/Bus/Tram validity and it would just cause confusion.

There are plenty of ways to get around London without buses, trams, tubes and DLR though. When Oyster first came in, it wasn't valid on the trains but they still brought it in even if it would be confusing.

What is the difference? People will soon learn it isn't valid when they get to use it incorrectly.

 

[jon81uk]

There are plenty of ways to get around London without buses, trams, tubes and DLR though. When Oyster first came in, it wasn't valid on the trains but they still brought it in even if it would be confusing.

Most of the time if using a train it is to travel in towards the city and then use the tube once there, so unlimited travel on trains only isn't really any use when a standard return ticket will be cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most of the time if using a train it is to travel in towards the city and then use the tube once there, so unlimited travel on trains only isn't really any use when a standard return ticket will be cheaper.

And unlimited travel is still available by way of the Oyster/contactless cap, if people do still just want to knock around London the whole time. To avoid incomplete journeys it does mean exiting a station once in a while, but most people can manage that, just riding trains all day without a break for food etc is a very niche activity indeed.