TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[Haywain]

Do the off peak travel cards work on Elizabeth Line to Heathrow ? Or are they not valid since they charge peak fare?

Yes, they 'work'.

 

[cobraman]

Yes, they 'work'.

Haha so officially shouldn't work? I guess that's a big loop hole maybe TFL dont like (presume not written anywhere). What happens if the travel card didn't open and had to show someone, they'd fine you?

 

[JonathanH]

Haha so officially shouldn't work? I guess that's a big loop hole maybe TFL dont like (presume not written anywhere). What happens if the travel card didn't open and had to show someone, they'd fine you?

They aren't a loop hole. They are explicitly valid on Elizabeth Line services to Heathrow.

 

[island]

Do the off peak travel cards work on Elizabeth Line to Heathrow ? Or are they not valid since they charge peak fare?

Off-peak day Travelcards are valid on the Elizabeth line to Heathrow (excluding before 0930 on weekdays). This is not a "loophole", they work the ticket gates perfectly well, and nobody's getting "fined".

There are off-peak fares to and from Heathrow for most journeys. Only full-fare TfL journeys that include zone 1 have the same peak and off-peak fares. Railcard holders, passengers travelling within zones 2-6, passengers who connect onto a "red type" National Rail route, and possibly others still have a distinction between the peak and off-peak fares.

 

[Hadders]

You

Haha so officially shouldn't work? I guess that's a big loop hole maybe TFL dont like (presume not written anywhere). What happens if the travel card didn't open and had to show someone, they'd fine you?

You will not get ‘fined’ for using a Travelcard to Heathrow Airport on the Elizabeth Line or London Underground.

It’s perfectly valid and has been ever since Travelcards were invented.

 

[Watershed]

You

You will not get ‘fined’ for using a Travelcard to Heathrow Airport on the Elizabeth Line or London Underground.

It’s perfectly valid and has been ever since Travelcards were invented.

To be fair, Travelcards weren't valid on Heathrow Connect (TfL Rail's predecessor to Heathrow, which in turn was the forerunner to the Elizabeth line). Also the National Rail Heathrow branch was but a twinkle in BAA's eye when the Travelcard was invented

But yes, ever since TfL took over Heathrow Connect operations, Travelcards have been valid to Heathrow on their National Rail services.

 

[redreni]

In 9 days time, it will be possible to buy a day travelcard for 21 January on booking sites which apply a 13 week horizon, that is the GWR website currently allows me to buy one on 12 January.

That kind of suggests that the formal announcement needs to be made soon to stop sales from the withdrawal date onwards.

One would hope.

TfL's proposal (which is all that is within their gift) is to stop accepting them.

So if buying one for late Jan onwards I would pay be paying attention to what the retailer is actually telling you about it's validity and I would consider what forms of redress, if any, you might realistically have if you find you can only use it on National Rail (but not, presumably, National Rail trains operated by TfL i.e. Elizabeth Line and London Overground)?

 

[CyrusWuff]

One would hope.

TfL's proposal (which is all that is within their gift) is to stop accepting them.

So if buying one for late Jan onwards I would pay be paying attention to what the retailer is actually telling you about it's validity and I would consider what forms of redress, if any, you might realistically have if you find you can only use it on National Rail (but not, presumably, National Rail trains operated by TfL i.e. Elizabeth Line and London Overground)?

I suspect the industry's default position would either be that you can request a fee-free refund of the difference between the Travelcard price and the return to London Terminals, or to try and fob you off to TfL...who would refer you back to the retailer.

 

[infobleep]

I suspect the industry's default position would either be that you can request a fee-free refund of the difference between the Travelcard price and the return to London Terminals, or to try and fob you off to TfL...who would refer you back to the retailer.

One would hope.

TfL's proposal (which is all that is within their gift) is to stop accepting them.

So if buying one for late Jan onwards I would pay be paying attention to what the retailer is actually telling you about it's validity and I would consider what forms of redress, if any, you might realistically have if you find you can only use it on National Rail (but not, presumably, National Rail trains operated by TfL i.e. Elizabeth Line and London Overground)?

Would TfL be legally obliged to accept the travelcard? I'm not talking about in practice here but legally? I accept in practice it might be hard.

 

[redreni]

Would TfL be legally obliged to accept the travelcard? I'm not talking about in practice here but legally? I accept in practice it might be hard.

I'm not a lawyer but if they didn't sell it and they had given notice to withdraw from the relevant part of the Travelcard agreement, then I can't see that they would be obliged to accept it or to compensate anyone.

Any right of redress would be against the retailer, I should think. But only if they misrepresented the validity when they sold it. TfL has given formal notice to withdraw from the relevant part of the Travelcard agreement, so unless that formal notice is - well - withdrawn, TfL isn't going to be accepting day travelcards. I don't think, however, that the retailer is entitled to just assume its customers will know that. Retailers should either start telling people before taking payment or (and this would probably be easier), just avoid selling any day travelcards for dates beyond the end of the notice period.

Presumably a major part of the thinking behind requiring parties to the Travelcard agreement to give six months notice to withdraw, is to allow retailers to avoid selling travelcards under false pretences?

 

[Somewhere]

I wouldn't be surprised if TfL also withdraw from accepting tickets with the Maltese Cross, as that will then save them from maintaining the equipment on ticket gates that read paper tickets

 

[SynthD]

I wouldn't be surprised if TfL also withdraw from accepting tickets with the Maltese Cross, as that will then save them from maintaining the equipment on ticket gates that read paper tickets

Do they have the right to do both of those?

 

[Richardr]

I wouldn't be surprised if TfL also withdraw from accepting tickets with the Maltese Cross, as that will then save them from maintaining the equipment on ticket gates that read paper tickets

Don't they sell paper tickets on all their routes?

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Don't they sell paper tickets on all their routes?

Yes, but if they stopped accepting National Rail tickets they might then withdraw Underground paper tickets and make all TfL stations cashless in the way that TfL buses have been for several years.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I wouldn't be surprised if TfL also withdraw from accepting tickets with the Maltese Cross, as that will then save them from maintaining the equipment on ticket gates that read paper tickets

That's covered by a separate agreement, specifically the "Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement." The most recent version I can find is from some time in 2000, which was sent in response to this FOI request.

The required notice period for withdrawal from that agreement is 12 months, unless RDG's representative agrees to a shorter term. Unlike the Travelcard Agreement, however, there's no 180 day minimum period specified in the agreement.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, but if they stopped accepting National Rail tickets they might then withdraw Underground paper tickets and make all TfL stations cashless in the way that TfL buses have been for several years.

To make them cashless they'd also have to withdraw the ability to top up Oystercards with cash.

 

[Watershed]

I'm not a lawyer but if they didn't sell it and they had given notice to withdraw from the relevant part of the Travelcard agreement, then I can't see that they would be obliged to accept it or to compensate anyone.

Any right of redress would be against the retailer, I should think. But only if they misrepresented the validity when they sold it. TfL has given formal notice to withdraw from the relevant part of the Travelcard agreement, so unless that formal notice is - well - withdrawn, TfL isn't going to be accepting day travelcards. I don't think, however, that the retailer is entitled to just assume its customers will know that. Retailers should either start telling people before taking payment or (and this would probably be easier), just avoid selling any day travelcards for dates beyond the end of the notice period.

Presumably a major part of the thinking behind requiring parties to the Travelcard agreement to give six months notice to withdraw, is to allow retailers to avoid selling travelcards under false pretences?

It depends a lot on what people are told when buying a Travelcard, but it's entirely possible that TfL would be bound by the actions of a retailer. The retailer may well have the apparent authority to bind TfL, notwithstanding the fact that TfL has actually withdrawn from the Travelcard agreement.

It would then be down to TfL to pursue the retailer for selling tickets for a product they didn't want to participate in anymore.

Of course that's just the theoretical legal position, and the practical one is that once TfL has withdrawn, they will probably just stop accepting day Travelcards and wrongly force people to pay again. Most people won't bother pursuing this, believing they may have been "missold" a ticket (even if the retailer was acting entirely in accordance with the industry data provided to them).

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect few people in practice would buy a one day travelcard in advance.

 

[Haywain]

I'm sure that at some time in the past there was a rule that they couldn't be sold more than a week (or a month?) in advance.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm sure that at some time in the past there was a rule that they couldn't be sold more than a week (or a month?) in advance.

It's still mentioned on the relevant Knowledgebase page.

Normally no more than 7 days in advance, but that can be extended to 12 weeks in advance when sold in conjunction with an Advance ticket.

 

[redreni]

I suspect few people in practice would buy a one day travelcard in advance.

I always buy them a little bit in advance because you can't buy them at the bus stop or on the bus. So if you want to start your journey by London bus, you need to buy it in advance.

So I buy my Travelcard for the Saturday in the week, usually on my way home from the office.

 

[Haywain]

It's still mentioned on the relevant Knowledgebase page.

Thanks - I'm glad it's not my memory playing tricks!

 

[jon0844]

To make them cashless they'd also have to withdraw the ability to top up Oystercards with cash.

I would have thought that if they kept the ability to do a top-up with cash at a machine, they could argue that they're still providing a means of travel for people without a credit/debit card.

 

[infobleep]

It depends a lot on what people are told when buying a Travelcard, but it's entirely possible that TfL would be bound by the actions of a retailer. The retailer may well have the apparent authority to bind TfL, notwithstanding the fact that TfL has actually withdrawn from the Travelcard agreement.

It would then be down to TfL to pursue the retailer for selling tickets for a product they didn't want to participate in anymore.

Of course that's just the theoretical legal position, and the practical one is that once TfL has withdrawn, they will probably just stop accepting day Travelcards and wrongly force people to pay again. Most people won't bother pursuing this, believing they may have been "missold" a ticket (even if the retailer was acting entirely in accordance with the industry data provided to them).

This seems plausible to me. I listen to Dean Dunan, the Consumer Hour, on Friday nights on LBC and the customer has to be told key terms so it's unlikely the customer would be in the wrong here.

 

[bcarmicle]

It depends a lot on what people are told when buying a Travelcard, but it's entirely possible that TfL would be bound by the actions of a retailer. The retailer may well have the apparent authority to bind TfL, notwithstanding the fact that TfL has actually withdrawn from the Travelcard agreement.

It would then be down to TfL to pursue the retailer for selling tickets for a product they didn't want to participate in anymore.

How does this work legally? I assume that if I were to sell you a ticket for £1 to go from Euston to Crewe, it wouldn't be a case of Avanti being obliged to accept it and then having to sue (or posecute) me. What makes the accredited retailer/TfL relationship special in law?

 

[Deerfold]

I would have thought that if they kept the ability to do a top-up with cash at a machine, they could argue that they're still providing a means of travel for people without a credit/debit card.

I'm not sure what point you're making. The post I replied to was suggesting making underground stations cashless. If you're keeping a machine to do that, there doesn't seem much point in removing cash from other machines. I'll all for keeping the ability to top up Oyster cards with cash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect few people in practice would buy a one day travelcard in advance.

It used to be the case that they could only be sold a few days in advance - when did this change?

 

[jon0844]

I'm not sure what point you're making. The post I replied to was suggesting making underground stations cashless. If you're keeping a machine to do that, there doesn't seem much point in removing cash from other machines. I'll all for keeping the ability to top up Oyster cards with cash.

The machines could add money to Oyster and that's it.

No ticket machine to sell paper tickets, and ultimately no need for gates to accept paper tickets. Just cards and eventually e-tickets.

Less maintenance issues and less ongoing costs.

 

[MikeWh]

It used to be the case that they could only be sold a few days in advance - when did this change?

Are you thinking about Southern Daysave tickets? Travelcards have always been available on the day in ticket offices or TVMs.

 

[Watershed]

How does this work legally? I assume that if I were to sell you a ticket for £1 to go from Euston to Crewe, it wouldn't be a case of Avanti being obliged to accept it and then having to sue (or posecute) me. What makes the accredited retailer/TfL relationship special in law?

So long as I had a reasonable basis for believing that you were acting on Avanti's behalf, then yes, Avanti would be obliged to accept it. It's a question of apparent authority.

National Rail retailers have long been selling tickets that include TfL validity - and indeed will continue to sell cross-London tickets and those to specified Underground Zones - so it would be a tall order for TfL to seek to argue that this didn't apply.