Operations of the Waterloo-Exeter 50s (and loco diagramming in general)

[D6130]

I have a 1970 map where the track layout is different. Platform 3 was only accessible from the West Coastway. However platform 2 had a route out onto what was called the West Carriage Road, which ran into number 1 up siding on Lovers Walk Depot.

I have no idea when the track layout was changed to give access to platform 3 from the main line.

IIRC, the West Carriage Road was abolished - and the main line access to/from platform 3 installed - circa 1971, when the new BR plant and road vehicle maintenance depot was built. However, as always, I am open to correction.

Finally from 1981, whereas most Waterloo-Salisbury shorts were TC formed, there was also the 1410 Waterloo-Salisbury on Mon-Fri and 1730 return, and 1010/1410 Waterloo-Salisbury and 1210/1710 return on Sats, which were formed of conventional hauled stock

Yes....I rode on the 10 10 and 14 10 from Waterloo several times during that period. They were formed of the 01 40 Waterloo-Yeovil Junction paper train set....a seven car (four-and-half for passengers) set of rickety old vacuum-braked dual-heated Mark 1 stock - formed BG - TSO -TSO - CK - BSK - TSO - BG, IIRC. Once the Crompton got into her stride past Wimbledon, the carriage bogies would be hunting so badly that the wheels seemed to be going further sideways than forwards. You wouldn't have wanted to put a cup pf MaxPax coffee down on a table in one of the TSOs, that's for sure!

 

[Gloster]

IIRC, the West Carriage Road was abolished - and the main line access to/from platform 3 installed - circa 1971, when the new BR plant and road vehicle maintenance depot was built. However, as always, I am open to correction.


Yes....I rode on the 10 10 and 14 10 from Waterloo several times during that period. They were formed of the 01 40 Waterloo-Yeovil Junction paper train set....a seven car (four-and-half for passengers) set of rickety old vacuum-braked dual-heated Mark 1 stock - formed BG - TSO -TSO - CK - BSK - TSO - BG, IIRC. Once the Crompton got into her stride past Wimbledon, the carriage bogies would be hunting so badly that the wheels seemed to be going further sideways than forwards. You wouldn't have wanted to put a cup pf MaxPax coffee down on a table in one of the TSOs, that's for sure!

You would have been better off if you did: it might have fallen off the table and spilled so that you couldn’t drink it, which would be a boon for your health and taste-buds. Just don’t let it spill on you: those MaxPaxs were always scorching hot.

 

[Cowley]

You would have been better off if you did: it might have fallen off the table and spilled so that you couldn’t drink it, which would be a boon for your health and taste-buds. Just don’t let it spill on you: those MaxPaxs were always scorching hot.

 

[Richard Scott]

Yes....I rode on the 10 10 and 14 10 from Waterloo several times during that period. They were formed of the 01 40 Waterloo-Yeovil Junction paper train set....a seven car (four-and-half for passengers) set of rickety old vacuum-braked dual-heated Mark 1 stock - formed BG - TSO -TSO - CK - BSK - TSO - BG, IIRC. Once the Crompton got into her stride past Wimbledon, the carriage bogies would be hunting so badly that the wheels seemed to be going further sideways than forwards. You wouldn't have wanted to put a cup pf MaxPax coffee down on a table in one of the TSOs, that's for sure

Reminds me of a couple of trips I had in Romania with enthusiastic drivers, coach hunting so badly had to hold on and it threw a bottle of water half way across the compartment.
Must admit never experienced it in UK. Good job those were 33s and wasn't a 50 with an keen driver and needle wrong side of 100mph!!!

 

[D6130]

You would have been better off if you did: it might have fallen off the table and spilled so that you couldn’t drink it, which would be a boon for your health and taste-buds. Just don’t let it spill on you: those MaxPaxs were always scorching hot.

Very true....although it was really just a humorous aside. IIRC, MaxPax tea, coffee and hot chocolate were only sold in buffet cars....which those trains did not have.

 

[75A]

Wasn’t there some involvement with a class 09 regarding the reversals back then? I seem to remember that it was a way of ticking them off for haulage but I might be misremembering something.

I think you're right, but it is 40 years since I worked there.

 

[Cowley]

I think you're right, but it is 40 years since I worked there.

I was really hoping that I hadn’t dreamed that one up so thanks for that.

 

[75A]

I was really hoping that I hadn’t dreamed that one up so thanks for that.

No I can vaguely remember being on the footplate of one.

Reminds me of a couple of trips I had in Romania with enthusiastic drivers, coach hunting so badly had to hold on and it threw a bottle of water half way across the compartment.
Must admit never experienced it in UK. Good job those were 33s and wasn't a 50 with an keen driver and needle wrong side of 100mph!!!

I remember the 33's would role from side to side at high speed whereas the 73's went up and down.

 

[Cowley]

No I can vaguely remember being on the footplate of one.

I’ve got a feeling that 09026 might have been used quite often but I’m absolutely delving into the recesses here…

 

[D6130]

Wasn’t there some involvement with a class 09 regarding the reversals back then? I seem to remember that it was a way of ticking them off for haulage but I might be misremembering something.

From my recollections of the 1983-87 period, the stock for the 09 20 Saturdays Only to Exeter - 8 cars in Winter with a single 33, or 12 cars in Summer with a pair of 33s - were hauled into platfrom 2 by the class 09 pilot....but the five car vacuum-braked 08 30 Mon-Sat to Cardiff - which I frequently worked as far as Salisbury - was propelled in.

 

[75A]

I’ve got a feeling that 09026 might have been used quite often but I’m absolutely delving into the recesses here…

Probably, we used to have the same one for months and months and then have a 26 mph horror trip to Newhaven to swap it with the one there. The Falmer Bank was fun because you always tripped the 27 mph 'trip', meaning you had to break to a stop to reset it.

From my recollections of the 1983-87 period, the stock for the 09 20 Saturdays Only to Exeter - 8 cars in Winter with a single 33, or 12 cars in Summer with a pair of 33s - were hauled into platfrom 2 by the class 09 pilot....but the five car vacuum-braked 08 30 Mon-Sat to Cardiff - which I frequently worked as far as Salisbury - was propelled in.

Sounds right.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Good job those were 33s and wasn't a 50 with an keen driver and needle wrong side of 100mph!!!

Not all 50's could do what it said on the tin (gauge). One, and I won't mention a name so as not offend anyone, after all, it was the lump between the cabs at fault, not the nameplate, couldn't get anywhere near the ton, and on a down grade at that.
Crompton's could be fun, worst case of sideways bounce I recall coming over Battledown flyover when one hit the long point which took the train to either the US or UF lines in to Basingstoke. Couldn't hear yourself 'think' on those either, let alone talk to each other!

 

[Richard Scott]

Not all 50's could do what it said on the tin (gauge). One, and I won't mention a name so as not offend anyone, after all, it was the lump between the cabs at fault, not the nameplate, couldn't get anywhere near the ton, and on a down grade at that.
Crompton's could be fun, worst case of sideways bounce I recall coming over Battledown flyover when one hit the long point which took the train to either the US or UF lines in to Basingstoke. Couldn't hear yourself 'think' on those either, let alone talk to each other!

But many could do well in excess too! 116mph was best I ever recorded with one!! Think 50030 was reputed to be quite weak in its later years.

 

[D6130]

One, and I won't mention a name so as not offend anyone, after all, it was the lump between the cabs at fault, not the nameplate, couldn't get anywhere near the ton, and on a down grade at that.

Must have been the extra weight of all that green paint!

Couldn't hear yourself 'think' on those either, let alone talk to each other!

One Saturday back in the Summer of '77, I had an illicit cab ride with an old hand Fratton driver from Salisbury to Havant on the 12 coach 13 55 Exeter SD-Brighton with 33 029 & 33 053 in multiple (the usual EH/HG combination). On the faster uphill section from Salisbury to Dean the noise level in the cab of 029 was sufficient for both locos and after alighting at Havant to catch my connection home to Petersfield, it took several hours for my hearing to return to normal. No wonder BR had to pay out millions in compensation to drivers who became prematurely deaf!

 

[Cowley]

One Saturday back in the Summer of '77, I had an illicit cab ride with an old hand Fratton driver from Salisbury to Havant on the 12 coach 13 55 Exeter SD-Brighton with 33 029 & 33 053 in multiple (the usual EH/HG combination). On the faster uphill section from Salisbury to Dean the noise level in the cab of 029 was sufficient for both locos and after alighting at Havant to catch my connection home to Petersfield, it took several hours for my hearing to return to normal. No wonder BR had to pay out millions in compensation to drivers who became prematurely deaf!

This is a fascinating subject in itself so I’ve started a new thread on it.

Early types of diesels and the cab environment?

mods note - split from Crompton's could be fun, worst case of sideways bounce I recall coming over Battledown flyover when one hit the long point which took the train to either the US or UF lines in to Basingstoke. Couldn't hear yourself 'think' on those either, let alone talk to each other!

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[nw1]

You would have been better off if you did: it might have fallen off the table and spilled so that you couldn’t drink it, which would be a boon for your health and taste-buds. Just don’t let it spill on you: those MaxPaxs were always scorching hot.

I think I remember that type of coffee from vending machines at university, though I never bought it from a train (even one with a buffet car). It wasn't good but I guess it kept you alert before a lecture.

Yes. By 1983 (the WTT is on timetableworld.com) the Yeovil was through to Exeter and back, they are the only vac braked workings via Andover.

Rather than the 0940 CI boat train? (My memory of the CI services in the 1980s is vague - the two-boat service wasn't all summer as it used to be.)

The CWN Clapham Yard section is actually a bit contradictory in this respect, so I wonder if there is a mistake.

On the one hand it says "Berth for 16+03" for the 22+12 ECS from Basingstoke, i.e. the stock which formed the 1638 that day (and the 16+03 ECS Clapham-Waterloo the following day then forms the 1638).

On the other hand it also says the 11+24 Waterloo to Clapham Yard, due 11+42, off the morning Weymouth Quay (only runs until end of Sep) also berths for the 16+03.

The 09+12 ECS from Clapham forms the morning boat train (0954 Waterloo) which runs until 29/10, but it isn't clear what forms this for its entire period of operation. MO it's off an ECS from Weymouth Quay the previous night, and FX from 1/10 to 29/10 it's off the 19+44 ECS from Waterloo the previous night (off 1530 Weymouth Quay which only ran 1/10 to 29/10, not during the summer). But it does not state what forms it from Tues-Fri during May-September.

Thus I assume that MX May-Sept the morning boat train is indeed formed off the stock which operated the 1638 the previous day, and I can only assume there's an error in the CWN in which it doesn't state this.

 

[30907]

Thus I assume that MX May-Sept the morning boat train is indeed formed off the stock which operated the 1638 the previous day, and I can only assume there's an error in the CWN in which it doesn't state this.

Quite likely! The SR not being known for wasting resources, the only way the 1638 could have happened would have been a spare set sat in Clapham Yard - and the CI sets were the obvious candidate (they were already used on summer Saturdays for an Exeter round trip, as the connection off the night boat could run earlier instead of having to wait till Waterloo had dealt with the morning peak).

 

[nw1]

Quite likely! The SR not being known for wasting resources, the only way the 1638 could have happened would have been a spare set sat in Clapham Yard - and the CI sets were the obvious candidate (they were already used on summer Saturdays for an Exeter round trip, as the connection off the night boat could run earlier instead of having to wait till Waterloo had dealt with the morning peak).

Looks like it!

On another matter I do note something which seems quite generous provision in the early 80s pattern though (specifically these timings are from 1982). There is a 4TC+33 which works a 1635 stopper from Salisbury to Basingstoke before going to the sidings there until the following morning. The 1635 follows the 1620 from Salisbury to Waterloo (from Exeter, calling Andover, Basingstoke and Woking), thus the 1635 exclusively provides for Grateley, Whitchurch and Overton. These stations normally get a 2-hourly service, with 1510 and 1730 departures from Salisbury also serving them.

The TC was one of the units on the 1010 Waterloo-Salisbury (SX formed 33+8TC, SO the newspaper set by the looks of things), the other working back to Waterloo as the 1310.

It is interesting to note they retained a TC+33 to operate this service and did not use the stock in the Waterloo evening peak. Heavy school and college traffic out of Salisbury, I guess?
Hard to see such generous provision being provided these days: if faced with the same timetable nowadays I suspect they'd just insert the stops into the 1620, while then, it was presumably considered desirable not to slow down the Exeters too much with extra stops.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The CWN Clapham Yard section is actually a bit contradictory in this respect, so I wonder if there is a mistake.

On the one hand it says "Berth for 16+03" for the 22+12 ECS from Basingstoke, i.e. the stock which formed the 1638 that day (and the 16+03 ECS Clapham-Waterloo the following day then forms the 1638).

On the other hand it also says the 11+24 Waterloo to Clapham Yard, due 11+42, off the morning Weymouth Quay (only runs until end of Sep) also berths for the 16+03.

The 09+12 ECS from Clapham forms the morning boat train (0954 Waterloo) which runs until 29/10, but it isn't clear what forms this for its entire period of operation. MO it's off an ECS from Weymouth Quay the previous night, and FX from 1/10 to 29/10 it's off the 19+44 ECS from Waterloo the previous night (off 1530 Weymouth Quay which only ran 1/10 to 29/10, not during the summer). But it does not state what forms it from Tues-Fri during May-September.

Thus I assume that MX May-Sept the morning boat train is indeed formed off the stock which operated the 1638 the previous day, and I can only assume there's an error in the CWN in which it doesn't state this.

There are some errors in my 1982 CWN as printed (produced by xxxx no names, no embarrassment) at Waterloo. My copy is amended in hand scrawl correcting those mistakes. The hand writing isn't mine, so must have been one of my mates CWN's, but when I get a spare moment I'll compile the set diagrams as best I can. Trouble with those sets, is that the boat workings could be dated variously, depending on sailings of QE2 and Canberra, so railway was always playing catch up with add hoc STP/VSTP boat trains.

 

[Magdalia]

There are some errors in my 1982 CWN as printed (produced by xxxx no names, no embarrassment) at Waterloo. My copy is amended in hand scrawl correcting those mistakes.

I have sometimes wondered what was the level of resources that BR put into proof reading of documents such as timetables and CWNs. I worked in a different field on publications that contained mainly numbers, and eliminating errors needed a lot of proof reading. I'm not at all surprised that those CWNs have errors.

the boat workings could be dated variously, depending on sailings of QE2 and Canberra, so railway was always playing catch up with add hoc STP/VSTP boat trains.

Boat train operation is a fascinating subject of its own. I don't always succeed i resisting the temptation to look at boat trains not just to/from Harwich, but, going back into the 1960s, also Tilbury and the Royal Docks.

 

[30907]

Looks like it!

On another matter I do note something which seems quite generous provision in the early 80s pattern though (specifically these timings are from 1982). There is a 4TC+33 which works a 1635 stopper from Salisbury to Basingstoke before going to the sidings there until the following morning. The 1635 follows the 1620 from Salisbury to Waterloo (from Exeter, calling Andover, Basingstoke and Woking), thus the 1635 exclusively provides for Grateley, Whitchurch and Overton. These stations normally get a 2-hourly service, with 1510 and 1730 departures from Salisbury also serving them.

IIRC the banknote paper mill at Overton produced commuter traffic - the train was a 3-set of Mk1s before they found a 4TC for it.

Trouble with those sets, is that the boat workings could be dated variously, depending on sailings of QE2 and Canberra, so railway was always playing catch up with add hoc STP/VSTP boat trains.

The Ocean Liner sets were separate from the CI boat sets though, weren't they?

 

[D6130]

The Ocean Liner sets were separate from the CI boat sets though, weren't they?

Yes....and usually entirely first class, except for one or two BCKs.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The Ocean Liner sets were separate from the CI boat sets though, weren't they?

Yes, apologies, the CI sets were (in 1982) 8 RMB sets, the Ocean liner set was just one set, EH230, BCK country end, FK's and a GUV at London end was the general rule. If both boats were in Southampton at the same time, a second train would run using whatever set was on hand a Clapham, eg: 8 Set H.

 

[nw1]

IIRC the banknote paper mill at Overton produced commuter traffic - the train was a 3-set of Mk1s before they found a 4TC for it.

Ah, interesting - that would fit the timings.
Having been a "school commuter" during the 80s and noting that many trains were well-used by those of us who were school kids, my initial thought was that the service was to provide for school/college traffic.

Interesting also that there was a TC going spare. Wonder if this had some other use in previous times?

My initial thought was one less TC needed for the 1810 Salisbury (which in 1981 was 33+8TC, before combining with the 1806 Bournemouth to become 33+4TC+8VEP), but the equivalent train (1642 Salisbury-Basingstoke) was also a TC in 1981.

On another matter, the 1210 Waterloo-Salisbury didn't seem to exist in 1981 (and thus presumably 1980?) - there was a gap for just that one hour. It did exist in 1982 as 33+4TC, which was the first year I actually saw the services for real (well, it was actually the calendar year 1983, but still the May 1982 timetable).

 

[Cowley]

Ah, interesting - that would fit the timings.
Having been a "school commuter" during the 80s and noting that many trains were well-used by those of us who were school kids, my initial thought was that the service was to provide for school/college traffic.

Interesting also that there was a TC going spare. Wonder if this had some other use in previous times?

My initial thought was one less TC needed for the 1810 Salisbury (which in 1981 was 33+8TC, before combining with the 1806 Bournemouth to become 33+4TC+8VEP), but the equivalent train (1642 Salisbury-Basingstoke) was also a TC in 1981.

On another matter, the 1210 Waterloo-Salisbury didn't seem to exist in 1981 (and thus presumably 1980?) - there was a gap for just that one hour.

My stepbrother and I cabbed a TC unit on platform 1 at St David’s one day in about 1986. We couldn’t work out how a southern EMU had made it there and the driver, bless him, was really pleased to explain to us how it worked.

At one point he told us to stick our heads out of the cab window so that we could see the 33/1 eight coaches back at the rear of the train…

 

[nw1]

Just looking at the 1983 WTT on Timetable World and there are some interesting changes wrt 1982 in addition to those already mentioned, producing a further enhanced service.

Firstly the Exeter-Waterloo up evening pattern is changed with an extra service: the 1618 is followed by 1733 and 1934, both through to Waterloo. The 1733 is presumably the 1818 brought forward while the 1934 is presumably the 1510 Waterloo-Exeter returning, when it previously ended the day at Exeter.

The 2020 Exeter-Basingstoke is delayed to 2100 and only heads to BSK on Fridays, terminating at Salisbury Mon-Thurs. It has a 62 headcode, indicating 33 haulage I presume (so does this mean that evening Barnstaple trip was 33-hauled?)

In the down direction, the 1638 Waterloo-Yeovil extends to Exeter and is marked as Air Braked (I presume the Channel Islands sets were air-braked?). It's marked with a 61 headcode which is presumably a clear sign of 33 haulage (the 1510 for example, 50 hauled, is shown with no headcode). It looks like it returns as the early (0623) Exeter to Waterloo (also marked with 61 headcode) with additional stops between Salisbury and Basingstoke. There is now a new super-early 0550 Exeter-Waterloo (presumably using the 50+WR set formerly used by the 0623). The 0836 Salisbury-Waterloo (the 'paper train' stock) no longer runs but there are Salisbury-Waterloo services at both 0715 and 0802 (both marked as air-braked; not sure what stock formed these as wasn't the paper train vacuum-braked?). The 0715 replaces both a Thumper from Salisbury-Reading (which also left at 0715) and the 0810 (formerly 8VEP) stopper from Basingstoke to Waterloo.

Thus a big improvement in Exeter services in the evening peak and really nicely spaced, now at 1510, 1638, 1738 and 1910 (compared to 1510, 1700 and 1910 in 1982). As already discussed, the Salisbury shorts are also nicely spaced in between (at 1700 and 1810, both of which convey VEPs to Eastleigh or beyond). Also the 1810 extends to Yeovil Junction.

My stepbrother and I cabbed a TC unit on platform 1 at St David’s one day in about 1986. We couldn’t work out how a southern EMU had made it there and the driver, bless him, was really pleased to explain to us how it worked.

At one point he told us to stick our heads out of the cab window so that we could see the 33/1 eight coaches back at the rear of the train…

Was that the booked stock incidentally? Don't remember any TC workings beyond Yeovil but that's not to say they didn't exist.

 

[30907]

In the down direction, the 1638 Waterloo-Yeovil extends to Exeter and is marked as Air Braked (I presume the Channel Islands sets were air-braked?). It's marked with a 61 headcode which is presumably a clear sign of 33 haulage (the 1510 for example, 50 hauled, is shown with no headcode). It looks like it returns as the early (0623) Exeter to Waterloo (also marked with 61 headcode) with additional stops between Salisbury and Basingstoke. There is now a new super-early 0550 Exeter-Waterloo (presumably using the 50+WR set formerly used by the 0623). The 0836 Salisbury-Waterloo (the 'paper train' stock) no longer runs but there are Salisbury-Waterloo services at both 0715 and 0802 (both marked as air-braked; not sure what stock formed these as wasn't the paper train vacuum-braked?). The 0715 replaces both a Thumper from Salisbury-Reading (which also left at 0715) and the 0810 (formerly 8VEP) stopper from Basingstoke to Waterloo.

The 1983 TT is interesting: the papers is extended to Exeter (unadvertised, which is why I never realised it existed) and forms the 0623 up (VB, 2 spades in the WTT header, so clearly the papers set. With the revised timings it can't form the 1010 down.
0640 off Sarum is clearly a WR set (D350 100mph) forming the 0910 - discussed in another thread as it happens).
0715 is hauled, but will be a 4TC anyway I think.
0802 is propelled (having arrived from Basingstoke, doubtless berthed in the down bay).

 

[Richard Scott]

I don’t think there were after around that date.


There were still 50s on the line in 1991, in fact I think they only finished properly in January 1992.

1991 was a bit of an Indian summer for loco hauled fans on the route with the 47/7s, some 47/4s, the remaining 50s and numerous class 33s handling trains throughout the year.

Just checked my records, these are by no means finishing for individual locos dates but my last runs with certain locos on diagrammed passenger trains:
50046 - 9/11/91
50029 - 11/12/91
50050 - 17/1/92
50030 - 1/2/92
There was an organised farewell day on 24/5/92 with 50007 and 50050 on Waterloo to Exeter trains. 50033 was due to appear but failed and was replaced by 60033 as far as Salisbury where 33002+33102 took over. Another interloper recorded was 47322.
Hope that's of interest?

 

[Taunton]

I have sometimes wondered what was the level of resources that BR put into proof reading of documents such as timetables and CWNs. I worked in a different field on publications that contained mainly numbers, and eliminating errors needed a lot of proof reading. I'm not at all surprised that those CWNs have errors.

I don't think they did, it wasn't like they were produced for public sale, the masters were just produced by the timing clerks, seemingly on manual typewriters, and sent off as is. Ian Allan, in person, had the liaison job with the printers in his first job at the Southern Railway, and in his autobiography writes about such a process. Possibly they were not typeset at all but just duplicated from the originals.

A (long ago) girlfriend who was a magazine editor once looked at my timetable collection (don't laugh), and observed "Wow, fancy having to proof read this lot", which amused me at the time.

 

[Cowley]

Just checked my records, these are by no means finishing for individual locos dates but my last runs with certain locos on diagrammed passenger trains:
50046 - 9/11/91
50029 - 11/12/91
50050 - 17/1/92
50030 - 1/2/92
There was an organised farewell day on 24/5/92 with 50007 and 50050 on Waterloo to Exeter trains. 50033 was due to appear but failed and was replaced by 60033 as far as Salisbury where 33002+33102 took over. Another interloper recorded was 47322.
Hope that's of interest?

Yes very interesting, thanks for that.