Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[The_Train]

Running one train in service just for the sake of being able to say "the 701s entered service in early 2024" is as pathetic as this entire process. If it actually happens, it's just a naff PR stunt that will definitely not make this saga any better, if anything it will just add to the utter craziness of it all.

At least this sorry saga has given me more chance to enjoy the 455s

 

[cactustwirly]

Running one train in service just for the sake of being able to say "the 701s entered service in early 2024" is as pathetic as this entire process. If it actually happens, it's just a naff PR stunt that will definitely not make this saga any better, if anything it will just add to the utter craziness of it all.

At least this sorry saga has given me more chance to enjoy the 455s

It's no different to what SWT did with the 707s just before their franchise ended

I think it makes me more sad than anything, purely because I know just what a slick and user-friendly service SWR Metro could have been had these entered use in the way they were supposed to.

Every few minute frequencies, everything consistently ten carriages (save a few single /5 on weekends) with toilets, air conditioning, charging points, entirely walk-through, little tables for the morning coffee, Wi-Fi, rapid acceleration, a modern PIS, WARM in the winter (big bugbear about the 455s and 458s) and lots of space.

I suppose we'll still get this eventually, but it'll be at least 2025.

How will they be any warmer than 458s? They will be cooler because of the open carriages surely?

I think your disappointment should be directed towards Bombardier for building a shoddy unit that had loads of faults, which significantly delayed the acceptance of these units.

The timetables are unlikely to change in the current climate, with or without the 701s.

 

[Samzino]

It's no different to what SWT did with the 707s just before their franchise ended


How will they be any warmer than 458s? They will be cooler because of the open carriages surely?

I think your disappointment should be directed towards Bombardier for building a shoddy unit that had loads of faults, which significantly delayed the acceptance of these units.

The timetables are unlikely to change in the current climate, with or without the 701s.

They should be warmer as a big way heat escapes on the 455s is the windows which unlike the 701s are openable. Modern day trains are pretty decent when it comes to insulation so even with an open carriage design, heat should be pretty well kept compared to those that have openable windows where the gaps between these can still let heat out.

You need a pretty good sealed / insulated unit for AC to also be effective.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's no different to what SWT did with the 707s just before their franchise ended


How will they be any warmer than 458s? They will be cooler because of the open carriages surely?

No problem with heating on the other Aventras I've been travelling on regularly for the past few years.

The heating in the 458s has never been any good.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The heating in the 458s has never been any good.

Yes they feel quite grim on a cold winter morning combined with the dirty lino floor and fogged windows.

 

[43OO4]

While we're on the subject of the condition & quality of stock, any word on if the 701s have double glazing? The 450s' double glazing is often leaky and I wouldn't be surprised if all the argon had leaked out, I often find SWR stock on the Reading and Windsor Lines to be quite cold and I've seen several occasions where the windows on a 450 have foot-deep pools of filthy water sloshing around them. 707s don't seem to have this issue.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

While we're on the subject of the condition & quality of stock, any word on if the 701s have double glazing? The 450s' double glazing is often leaky and I wouldn't be surprised if all the argon had leaked out, I often find SWR stock on the Reading and Windsor Lines to be quite cold and I've seen several occasions where the windows on a 450 have foot-deep pools of filthy water sloshing around them. 707s don't seem to have this issue.

450? How interesting, as that’s something I’d myself fault the 458s for, but not the 450s.

 

[43OO4]

450? How interesting, as that’s something I’d myself fault the 458s for, but not the 450s.

Yep! Only ever seen that on the Desiros, never the Junipers. I can assure you that's not a typo!

 

[Goldfish62]

While we're on the subject of the condition & quality of stock, any word on if the 701s have double glazing?

Double glazing has been a standard feature on all mainline rolling stock since the later MK1 builds in the late 1950s! Only suburban slam door stock such as VEPs didn't have it. So yes, of course they have double glazing.

Even the Parry People Movers have double glazing.

 

[43OO4]

Double glazing has been a standard feature on all mainline rolling stock since the later MK1 builds in the late 1950s! Only suburban slam door stock such as VEPs didn't have it. So yes, of course they have double glazing.

Even the Parry People Movers have double glazing.

I'd always thought that vehicles that used bonded style glazing, like the 460s or early Electrostars, didn't use double glazing. Wasn't sure about the Aventras even though I'm aware they use gasket glazing...

Probably stems from the fact that I grew up around bus people and trains were always a bit of a side hobby! Don't think British buses use double glazing.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'd always thought that vehicles that used bonded style glazing, like the 460s or early Electrostars, didn't use double glazing. Wasn't sure about the Aventras even though I'm aware they use gasket glazing...

Probably stems from the fact that I grew up around bus people and trains were always a bit of a side hobby! Don't think British buses use double glazing.

Yes, all mainline trains use double glazing for both comfort and safety. You can see the latter in action when a window is bricked. The outer pane shatters, but unless it's really bad, the inner pane remains intact. If you look at the window edges you'll see the two panes of glass. Clearly present on the two trains you've highlighted.

A few years ago I travelled in an early Mk2 on the Wensleydale Railway which had been converted to single glazing, presumably due to cost, and the effect was very obvious, and odd looking.

But you're right - most British buses are single glazed, which is why they steam up in damp and cold weather. It's a weight issue.

 

[alf]

So in 4 years(2 of which have seen acceptances) there hasn't been enough drivers trained up to at least do one or two rush hour peak services in a c2c style after launch?

Pretty poor from SWR once again if true.

It isn’t wholly SWR’s fault.
Aslef insist on a training course length much longer than the driver training time for previous stock.
If SWR accepted the new duration it would set a very expensive & impractical precedent for training drivers on all future traction.
Bear in mind that the 701 drivers desk & cab pin points train faults with codes &, as at present, drivers can call maintenance if they are not sure how to reset & keep the train in service.
Apparently the training time is far longer than Southern main line drivers accepted for door operation 7 years ago.

 

[Snow1964]

It isn’t wholly SWR’s fault.
Aslef insist on a training course length much longer than the driver training time for previous stock.
If SWR accepted the new duration it would set a very expensive & impractical precedent for training drivers on all future traction.

Why would SWR need to worry about a precedent.

After 701 training, what have they got planned, replacement of 159s in about 6-9 years time (which only affects about tenth of its drivers), the 444s and 450s unlikely to be replaced this side of 2040.

Realistically probably got nearer 4% of drivers per year to replace those retiring, is that worth a precedent until end of their franchise (management contract) term. If it stops 701s for months.

And anyway who makes SWR training policy: safety regulator, SWR or The Associated society of locomotives engineers and firemen (excuse the sexist term, their choice of name).

 

[Andy1673]

Why would SWR need to worry about a precedent.

After 701 training, what have they got planned, replacement of 159s in about 6-9 years time (which only affects about tenth of its drivers), the 444s and 450s unlikely to be replaced this side of 2040.

Realistically probably got nearer 4% of drivers per year to replace those retiring, is that worth a precedent until end of their franchise (management contract) term. If it stops 701s for months.

And anyway who makes SWR training policy: safety regulator, SWR or The Associated society of locomotives engineers and firemen (excuse the sexist term, their choice of name).

very sorry there is no Associated society of passengers. ASOP could insist on...

 

[norbitonflyer]

Thanks for the update.

And to think that sister company GWR managed to introduce IETs, 387s and short HSTs, plus shift Turbos west almost all concurrently.

yes, but they also tried to introduce the 769/9s.

And the IET didn't exactly go to plabn - with the first train including un-scheduled cold showers for the passengers - a colleague of mine was on board and was less than impressed.

It's no different to what SWT did with the 707s just before their franchise ended

That was slightly different, as SWT wanted to see them run, if only once, on their watch. (Whether to get the kudos, or deny it to the usurpers, who can say?)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

very sorry there is no Associated society of passengers. ASOP could insist on...

Post of the year.

 

[Merle Haggard]

very sorry there is no Associated society of passengers. ASOP could insist on...

After testing and negotiations to make sure that the new trains are acceptable in every way to railway operators and engineers and the drivers have a warm and comfortable environment the trains enter service. At no time is the opinion of passengers/customers - those who pay for it all - sought.

Says out all really.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

After testing and negotiations to make sure that the new trains are acceptable in every way to railway operators and engineers and the drivers have a warm and comfortable environment the trains enter service. At no time is the opinion of passengers/customers - those who pay for it all - sought.

Says out all really.

Very well said, and it's not acceptable.

Are we still on for tomorrow's single return soft launch?

 

[YorkRailFan]

701s are getting soft launched from tmrw

https://twitter.com/ICTrains125/status/1744077518385053759?t=URE6pUVKptIewIafEGHIuQ&s=19

Anyone able to confirm if the quoted part of the tweeted linked above is correct?

 

[Goldfish62]

yes, but they also tried to introduce the 769/9s.

And the IET didn't exactly go to plabn - with the first train including un-scheduled cold showers for the passengers - a colleague of mine was on board and was less than impressed.

I don't think you understand my point. None of that detracts one bit from the fact that they were training staff simultaneously on several types of train, while it's been suggested on this thread that it's somehow all too difficult for SWR to do likewise for a single type of new train.

 

[swr444]

Very well said, and it's not acceptable.

Are we still on for tomorrow's single return soft launch?

I was told last week it would be the 9th and this one is the booked working

Realtime Trains | 1025 London Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside | 09/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 1025 departure from London Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside on 09/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Running one train in service just for the sake of being able to say "the 701s entered service in early 2024" is as pathetic as this entire process. If it actually happens, it's just a naff PR stunt that will definitely not make this saga any better, if anything it will just add to the utter craziness of it all.

At least this sorry saga has given me more chance to enjoy the 455s

Indeed all credit to Stagecoach for delivering that traction upgrade to the 455's its saved the day

 

[The_Train]

While we're on the subject of the condition & quality of stock, any word on if the 701s have double glazing?

By the time they enter service, double glazing will be seen as a poor window config

 

[43OO4]

Good god...

I was told last week it would be the 9th and this one is the booked working

Realtime Trains | 1025 London Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside | 09/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 1025 departure from London Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside on 09/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Can we stop bouncing dates around unless we actually know? Over the past week we've had the following days listed:

• Thursday
• Friday
• Sunday
• Monday
• Tuesday

This is getting ridiculous. Unless you yourself know what the dates are, which at the moment nobody here does, you're in no position to share when they'll run. This date chasing has been going on since before Christmas, accept the fact that none of us know and it'll be completely unannounced. We don't know the date it'll run on. It could be today, tomorrow, in a month's time, but this is all just he-said-she-said at the moment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Good god...


Can we stop bouncing dates around unless we actually know? Over the past week we've had the following days listed:

• Thursday
• Friday
• Sunday
• Monday
• Tuesday

This is getting ridiculous. Unless you yourself know what the dates are, which at the moment nobody here does, you're in no position to share when they'll run. This date chasing has been going on since before Christmas, accept the fact that none of us know and it'll be completely unannounced. We don't know the date it'll run on. It could be today, tomorrow, in a month's time, but this is all just he-said-she-said at the moment.

Do you know what information all SWR staff on this forum have been given? Many of them have kindly shared as much info as possible to keep us in the loop, and I for one am very grateful for that, and certainly don’t support berating them simply because SWR keep cancelling and rescheduling.

 

[43OO4]

Do you know what information all SWR staff on this forum have been given? Many of them have kindly shared as much info as possible to keep us in the loop, and I for one am very grateful for that, and certainly don’t support berating them simply because SWR keep cancelling and rescheduling.

A lot of what I've read is "This guy from Staines", "I've heard this date being bounced around", never "So the date in my own brief is this". What's even more shocking is people on this forum encouraging somebody to board a unit despite it not even being on a passenger-carrying headcode. We don't know when it will run, nor can we force the first passenger carrying run to happen.

 

[swr444]

2U91 is showing as running today on our internal site genius and on real time trains, so it could be today, although currently there is no crew assigned.

 

[43OO4]

2U91 is showing as running today on our internal site genius and on real time trains, so it could be today, although currently there is no crew assigned.

Not showing for me on RTT, still needs to be activated.

 

[MrJeeves]

Ok, so there is a single path on RTT leaving Waterloo at 1533 for Windsor & Eton that has no unit allocation showing currently and is preceded directly by an ECS run from Wimbledon Park Depot Sidings

ECS run: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y05590/2024-01-08/detailed
2U45: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y04128/2024-01-08/detailed
2U52: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y04146/2024-01-08/detailed
... it then continues shuttling back and forth, but for a good few hours, which doesn't match the "info" earlier in the thread.

If there is a soft launch today, I'd think this is an odd coincidence for it to be the only unallocated (on RTT) set of paths.

 

[TEW]

It won't be that one. It will be 2U91/2U92 if/when it runs.

2U45 not being allocated is perfectly normal. Trains due out of depots in the afternoon don't get allocated until later.