Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There is no guarantee that if GTR get the 379s the seating will stay the same, especially as the months in storage won’t be doing it any good. There would need to be some level of reconfiguration as in their current form the 379s have too much first - that’s if GTR doesn’t go the same way as other TOCs and first disappears altogether.

And this all depends on whether GTR get the 379s at all.

I'm not sure what would go in place of removed first class, as the seats 379s have are not really readily available. They're used in 172s and 377/1-5, and 313/2 had them but have since been scrapped. Perhaps an unattractive mix of Fainsa and the current seats, or simply declassification of the current large first class seats in 2+1, which would certainly be a contrast in standard class products with the 387s and 700s on the route.

 

[bramling]

I'm not sure what would go in place of removed first class, as the seats 379s have are not really readily available. They're used in 172s and 377/1-5, and 313/2 had them but have since been scrapped. Perhaps an unattractive mix of Fainsa and the current seats, or simply declassification of the current large first class seats in 2+1, which would certainly be a contrast in standard class products with the 387s and 700s on the route.

I wonder if it would be possible to swap the seats with the 387/2s, so that the Gatwick units get something more comfortable, and GN would be standard. For clarity I’m not advocating it as I’d prefer it if GN got something more comfortable.

My personal feeling is that should the 379s go anywhere it should actually be GWR, allowing 387s to move over to GTR. Though how we would arrive at that outcome isn’t clear.

 

[Wivenswold]

You are assuming they would keep the first class as it is currently set up, which would represent a reduction in capacity.

No, I'm talking about Standard Class in the 379s. I've never travelled in first class and never will, even on business trips. I prefer to sit with interesting people.

 

[Benno]

There is no guarantee that if GTR get the 379s the seating will stay the same, especially as the months in storage won’t be doing it any good. There would need to be some level of reconfiguration as in their current form the 379s have too much first - that’s if GTR doesn’t go the same way as other TOCs and first disappears altogether.

And this all depends on whether GTR get the 379s at all.

The interiors are in excellent condition as the 379s are receiving maintenance while they are in store. Every 14 days each unit is moved to the exam siding at Worksop and given an exam where the auxiliary electrical system is powered up and various checks are carried out. There are also reports that the units are regularly taken to Doncaster so that they can be energised at 25kV to make sure the high voltage systems are still working ok. Akiem must believe that there is a future for these units to be paying out for this level of maintenance.

 

[physics34]

If GN were successful in obtaining the 379s. Would Southern railway get any of the 387s that is with GN?

That would make sense. But ive never heard anything official from inside the company. The plan was some 377/5s to southern but that is now not happening.

Southern needs stock to increase its service.

 

[JonathanH]

Southern needs stock to increase its service.

Does Southern need to increase its service though?

There seem to be a lot of people upset that fewer trains run now than in March 2020, but have Southern said they want to increase services on any route, to the extent that would need more rolling stock, rather than reallocation? Is there much political pressure to do so?

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Also, you can ask if passengers are going to be jam-packed like sardines. That is the $64,000 question.

 

[Samzino]

Off topic slightly but I remember a recent article mentioning that TFL is reviewing some possibilities of London overground trains running into London bridge to add a bit of lost capacity from the reduced southern services.

 

[PGAT]

Off topic slightly but I remember a recent article mentioning that TFL is reviewing some possibilities of London overground trains running into London bridge to add a bit of lost capacity from the reduced southern services.

That’s being discussed in this thread:

TfL considering Sydenham corridor AM improvement

Some on here may remember my annoyance with morning overcrowding on the Sydenham corridor, especially from Honor Oak Park/Brockley northwards, as well as our lack of East Croydon service. Well, Lewisham Council's Transport Committee has brought it up with TfL and GTR. GTR gave the expected...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Samzino]

That’s being discussed in this thread:

TfL considering Sydenham corridor AM improvement

Some on here may remember my annoyance with morning overcrowding on the Sydenham corridor, especially from Honor Oak Park/Brockley northwards, as well as our lack of East Croydon service. Well, Lewisham Council's Transport Committee has brought it up with TfL and GTR. GTR gave the expected...

www.railforums.co.uk

Ah thanks

 

[ScotGG]

Yep Southern do need more stock.

London Overground into London Bridge? TfL looking into it - Murky Depths

Transport for London are considering running London Overground trains into London Bridge to compensate for Southern rail cuts

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

Demand on London Overground is now above levels before covid and they're struggling to pick up the slack.

Cutting Metro routes isn't wise given extra road congestion now seen and new home construction in areas like Croydon, New Cross and Bermondsey remains high.

 

[Milo T.K]

With the 379s being OOS for nearly 2 years would the lease be cheaper now or no?

 

[JonathanH]

With the 379s being OOS for nearly 2 years would the lease be cheaper now or no?

Cheaper or not, the more pertinent question is whether or not it is affordable, particularly if further DfT budget cuts are to be made in 2024.

 

[bramling]

With the 379s being OOS for nearly 2 years would the lease be cheaper now or no?

All depends on what their owner wants to do. That would presumably be commercially sensitive.

That said, one would assume that with the units having sat idle the owner would be keen to get them earning money.

DFT doesn’t seem to be particularly bothered about providing capacity, so one presumes they will only be leased if the price drops significantly.

 

[Snow1964]

All depends on what their owner wants to do. That would presumably be commercially sensitive.

That said, one would assume that with the units having sat idle the owner would be keen to get them earning money.

DFT doesn’t seem to be particularly bothered about providing capacity, so one presumes they will only be leased if the price drops significantly.

I suspect the Lease Companies will wait until after next election, then see what political will is for developing (or not) the rail network.

Commercially anyone doing rail leasing knows they are in the game for 25+ years. The 379s had about 9 years use, if they are stored 2-3 years, then probably want another 20 years out of them. The time they were bought interest rates were very low, so probably quite comfortable storing them whilst other stock is making money.

 

[Magdalia]

The time they were bought interest rates were very low, so probably quite comfortable storing them whilst other stock is making money.

This is not correct. The class 379s were ordered in 2009, shortly after the 2008 banking crisis. Although short term interest rates were reduced rapidly in response, longer term interest rates took time to adjust. In 2009 30 year gilt yields were still around 4%, and didn't start to fall significantly until 2011. Leasing costs are linked to long term interest rates, not the headline bank base rate, and the class 379s have much higher financing costs than leases negotiated after 2011.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that discussion in this thread should be confined to the actual tender itself. Any speculation or suggestions should be posted in the Speculative section of the forum e.g.

Class 379s to C2C?

Would be nice to see those 379s permanently replace some of the oldest 357 stock on c2c, but that will never happen as of current ar least. C2C didn't fight too much to keep the 387s they had and I assume that's down to the 357s working better lease wise plus now that the 720s have rolled thru...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

This is not correct. The class 379s were ordered in 2009, shortly after the 2008 banking crisis. Although short term interest rates were reduced rapidly in response, longer term interest rates took time to adjust. In 2009 30 year gilt yields were still around 4%, and didn't start to fall significantly until 2011. Leasing costs are linked to long term interest rates, not the headline bank base rate, and the class 379s have much higher financing costs than leases negotiated after 2011.

Indeed. Of course, as an investment asset, a commercial negotiation would determine the lease prices in relation to any tender, rather than a direct relationship with the price of their finance.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

The latest on Great Northern tender for up too 30 addional rolling stock. I have seen someone has put Great Northern waiting for approval from the Dft for the 30 additional rolling stock? Hopefully, an announcement very soon.

 

[JonathanH]

I have seen someone has put Great Northern waiting for approval from the Dft for the 30 additional rolling stock?

Where has someone done this?

 

[Benno]

The latest on Great Northern tender for up too 30 addional rolling stock. I have seen someone has put Great Northern waiting for approval from the Dft for the 30 additional rolling stock? Hopefully, an announcement very soon.

I’m not sure where you have seen this as nothing is in the public domain yet, but the information is true.

The 379s are set to be sold to a different Rosco who are waiting for the DFT to sign the Great Northern lease agreement before the deal is announced. They need to hurry up as it is the intention to have them in service for the Dec 24 timetable change.

 

[Samzino]

Well dang. The 379s may have found life after all.

 

[dk1]

Well dang. The 379s may have found life after all.

I think that’s what many of us think purely down to the convenient number and similarities in class.

 

[jon0844]

The 379s are set to be sold to a different Rosco...

Best check if any Tory MP, or one of their family members, or pub landlords, has recently set up a new company ....

 

[43096]

The 379s are set to be sold to a different Rosco who are waiting for the DFT to sign the Great Northern lease agreement before the deal is announced. They need to hurry up as it is the intention to have them in service for the Dec 24 timetable change.

Akiem wisely getting out of UK passenger trains, which don’t really fit with the rest of their business.

As for the buyer, I’d guess either a company that already has a large fleet of Electrostars, or one that regularly buys up fleets.

 

[The_Train]

Best check if any Tory MP, or one of their family members, or pub landlords, has recently set up a new company ....

And then make sure whatever name that is, is not an alias of Shapps

 

[D365]

Train Fleet (2019) Ltd. appears to still be an active company..? [a stop-gap government-owned ROSCO that took over the Class 365s before they were sold back to Eversholt and later scrapped]

 

[Wivenswold]

Delighted for Great Northern customers after losing their excellent Networkers they've been commuting on trains that really aren't built for comfortable long-distance commuting. So long as they don't rip-out the seating these units will be a big step-up in comfort.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The latest on Great Northern tender for up too 30 addional rolling stock. I have seen someone has put Great Northern waiting for approval from the Dft for the 30 additional rolling stock? Hopefully, an announcement very soon.

I’m not sure where you have seen this as nothing is in the public domain yet, but the information is true.

Do you know enough about the OP to know that he may not know this for the same reason as you?

Delighted for Great Northern customers after losing their excellent Networkers they've been commuting on trains that really aren't built for comfortable long-distance commuting. So long as they don't rip-out the seating these units will be a big step-up in comfort.

I think it’s a big subjective there, as I personally think the 387s were a huge upgrade on the 365s, but I can agree the 379s will doubtlessly be very welcome.

 

[jon0844]

The 379s would replace or supplement the 387s. The 700s have mostly gone already.

I would imagine keeping the internal layout, as first class is in a much better position. Seat covers are fine too, and nicer than Southern green.

I do think the GWR 387s have the nicest interior though.