Edinburgh-London rail journeys "to be cut to 4 hours"

[dk1]

What was 3h 29m?

3h29 was a record breaking run on the ECML. A similar attempt on the WCM, was nearer 3h55. These have never been timetabled services and in BR days speed restrictions where often relaxed to allow this to happen.

 

[TheWalrus]

Does anyone know the calling patterns proposed for this new timetable for each of the services when the Newcastle services start?

 

[Peter0124]

How much time would be lost on the ECML between Edinburgh and Newcastle due to it's 124 mile route hugging the coast? Dunbar is further north than Waverley so the trains actually go north before heading south again.

Though the speed limits out of Edinburgh on the ECML are higher than leaving Glasgow on the WCML.
I believe Prestonpans is 125mph, meanwhile you don't reach 125 on the WCML till after Carstairs.

 

[Starmill]

So - Glasgow to Euston was under 4hrs previously - and faster than the ECML.

Precisely when and which services were scheduled as such?

2 trains daily Mon-Fri only stopped once. I stopped commuting in 1985. So what do you believe the timetable stated?

No. Nobody believes that.

I must have done the WC 150 times on both standard and APT sets and it was always seen as the the flagship route (even when adding in a trip to Queen Street and an Inter-City to Waverley).

What does "flagship route" even mean? It hasn't been regularly quicker for a long time.

 

[Buzby]

Until I stopped commuting, WCML was the fastest option. You say it hasn’t been ‘for a long time’ - I accept that as I’m going back nearly 39 years, I’m trying to discover why this changed, EC was electrified later, but it cannot just be that?

 

[kaysha]

Until I stopped commuting, WCML was the fastest option. You say it hasn’t been ‘for a long time’ - I accept that as I’m going back nearly 39 years, I’m trying to discover why this changed, EC was electrified later, but it cannot just be that

The diversion of the ECML to avoid Selby?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Until I stopped commuting, WCML was the fastest option. You say it hasn’t been ‘for a long time’ - I accept that as I’m going back nearly 39 years, I’m trying to discover why this changed, EC was electrified later, but it cannot just be that?

Are you sure your comparing the right times? Ecml Edinburgh to London is faster that Glasgow to London Wcml, pretty much always has been in last 60 years, are you sure your not thinking Glasgow to London via Ecml was the slower option which that argument would be understandable

 

[Starmill]

Until I stopped commuting, WCML was the fastest option. You say it hasn’t been ‘for a long time’ - I accept that as I’m going back nearly 39 years, I’m trying to discover why this changed, EC was electrified later, but it cannot just be that?

It sounds like your memory of the time period between 39 and 45 years ago isn't entirely correct, although it was a while ago so of course anyone could be forgiven for that. For example 3h30 approximately has never been achievable, with the various best possible times under record-setting conditions some 15-25 minutes longer than that.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are you sure your comparing the right times? Ecml Edinburgh to London is faster that Glasgow to London Wcml, pretty much always has been in last 60 years, are you sure your not thinking Glasgow to London via Ecml was the slower option which that argument would be understandable

Especially as GNER (and BR IC) services to Glasgow were at one point as frequent as every two hours rather than daily, so it's understandable that the service may have stuck in the mind.

 

[cle]

Euston-Glasgow was standardly 4h10 with the sole Preston call (1040am-ish from memory) - which was the only frequency to compete with the ECML timings.

But then Carlisle was added, and then more creep - and that service become a standard pattern. I do think that a 4h15 should be aimed for - 2-3 calls tops. And another service for other stations. HS2 should knock 15 minutes off, and maybe see a 4h timing. But Haymarket via WCML might then also be 3h-something. So I can't imagine full parity.

 

[MrJeeves]

HS2 should knock 15 minutes off

And then lose another 20 mins as the trains can't tilt.

 

[Starmill]

Euston-Glasgow was standardly 4h10 with the sole Preston call (1040am-ish from memory) - which was the only frequency to compete with the ECML timings.

But then Carlisle was added, and then more creep - and that service become a standard pattern. I do think that a 4h15 should be aimed for - 2-3 calls tops. And another service for other stations. HS2 should knock 15 minutes off, and maybe see a 4h timing. But Haymarket via WCML might then also be 3h-something. So I can't imagine full parity.

There isn't really enough demand for 2tph of all 11 cars on Glasgow - London. Note there used to be an additional fast service from London to Glasgow at 1657, but this now goes to Blackpool North instead.

 

[Peter0124]

There isn't really enough demand for 2tph of all 11 cars on Glasgow - London. Note there used to be an additional fast service from London to Glasgow at 1657, but this now goes to Blackpool North instead.

I think the reason it's going to Blackpool is because there is one less unit stabling at Polmadie than compared to pre-covid, due to 9A53 to Euston via West Midlands (formally 9M53) starting from Blackpool.

1S34 (early morning Wolves to Glasgow) used to form 9M53, but it forms 1M11 (10:38 via Trent Valley) now, which used to come from Polmadie Depot.

So effectively that 16:57 I think was a stock balancer for Polmadie. It also wasn't fast IIRC as it stopped at Lockerbie/Motherwell and possibly others.

I reckon the 16:57 will be reinstated to run to Glasgow when all of the via WM services move back from using Blackpool. If that ever happens (hopefully).

 

[dk1]

Euston-Glasgow was standardly 4h10 with the sole Preston call (1040am-ish from memory) - which was the only frequency to compete with the ECML timings.

But then Carlisle was added, and then more creep - and that service become a standard pattern. I do think that a 4h15 should be aimed for - 2-3 calls tops. And another service for other stations. HS2 should knock 15 minutes off, and maybe see a 4h timing. But Haymarket via WCML might then also be 3h-something. So I can't imagine full parity.

I thought the only service since VHF in 2008 that got anywhere near that was the 4h08 schedule on the 16:30 Eus-Glc that called only at Preston (18:30-18:32).

 

[hexagon789]

I thought the only service since VHF in 2008 that got anywhere near that was the 4h08 schedule on the 16:30 Eus-Glc that called only at Preston (18:30-18:32).

I think a lot of people are misremembering things.

 

[dk1]

I think a lot of people are misremembering things.

It does seem that way on this thread.

 

[Bald Rick]

Euston-Glasgow was standardly 4h10 with the sole Preston call (1040am-ish from memory) - which was the only frequency to compete with the ECML timings.

Euston Glasgow in 4h08 / 4h10 was done in regular timetabled service only by the 1630 down, post 2008 (and stopped around 2015). Called at Preston only.

prior to the West Coast upgrade, the fastest regular timetabled Euston -Glasgow service was the Royal Scot, usually 1030 (or theteabouts) off Euston, in 5hrs. The APT bettered that, very briefly, in trial services before being abandoned (as we know).

Meanwhile HSTs were doing London Edinburgh in 4h30 thereabouts from 1978/9, calling twice IIRC.

There is likely to be a period between completion of WCML electrification in 1974, and introduction of the HSTs on the ECML in 1978/9 when the WCML was quicker than a Deltic+8. But thats it.

 

[Buzby]

There is likely to be a period between completion of WCML electrification in 1974, and introduction of the HSTs on the ECML in 1978/9 when the WCML was quicker than a Deltic+8. But thats it.

That makes sense - that’s probably it.

 

[hexagon789]

Euston Glasgow in 4h08 / 4h10 was done in regular timetabled service only by the 1630 down, post 2008 (and stopped around 2015). Called at Preston only.

prior to the West Coast upgrade, the fastest regular timetabled Euston -Glasgow service was the Royal Scot, usually 1030 (or theteabouts) off Euston, in 5hrs. The APT bettered that, very briefly, in trial services before being abandoned (as we know).

Meanwhile HSTs were doing London Edinburgh in 4h30 thereabouts from 1978/9, calling twice IIRC.

There is likely to be a period between completion of WCML electrification in 1974, and introduction of the HSTs on the ECML in 1978/9 when the WCML was quicker than a Deltic+8. But thats it.

The HSTs took about 4h47/50 on the Flying Scotsman in 1978 IIRC. Reduced to 4h37/39 with the full timetable the next year. Most services were closer to 4h50-5hrs depending on stops.

4h30 on the FS came in 1984, but pushed out to 4h35 for a few years when a York stop was inserted in the mid-80s, before falling to 4h23 in 1988.

The WCML electrification to Glasgow saw most daytime services timed at 5h07/8 with two or three stops. The Royal Scot being an even 5 with one stop at Preston.

The ECML timing of the FS in particular was extended by engineering work allowances at this time, but was reduced to 5h27/28 in 1977.

 

[Starmill]

I think the reason it's going to Blackpool is because there is one less unit stabling at Polmadie than compared to pre-covid, due to 9A53 to Euston via West Midlands (formally 9M53) starting from Blackpool.

1S34 (early morning Wolves to Glasgow) used to form 9M53, but it forms 1M11 (10:38 via Trent Valley) now, which used to come from Polmadie Depot.

So effectively that 16:57 I think was a stock balancer for Polmadie. It also wasn't fast IIRC as it stopped at Lockerbie/Motherwell and possibly others.

I reckon the 16:57 will be reinstated to run to Glasgow when all of the via WM services move back from using Blackpool. If that ever happens (hopefully).

I doubt it will be as it was followed very closely from Lancaster by both the 1730 from London and the 1910 from Manchester Airport, doing almost all the same stops, with poor load factor. The 1910 is not back but I strongly doubt both would return. It could go to Glasgow Central on Friday nights only potentially. It used to call at Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley, but these are now picked up by the three services to Holyhead (/Wrexham General) instead.

 

[Peter0124]

I doubt it will be as it was followed very closely from Lancaster by both the 1730 from London and the 1910 from Manchester Airport, doing almost all the same stops, with poor load factor. The 1910 is not back but I strongly doubt both would return. It could go to Glasgow Central on Friday nights only potentially. It used to call at Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley, but these are now picked up by the three services to Holyhead (/Wrexham General) instead.

I think there will still need to be a inbound working though (whether from Polmadie or another early morning northbound) if all Blackpool - London via WMs are started back from Glasgow like pre-covid. Maybe the 20:30 from London could be extended to Glasgow to balance Polmadie and provide a much later service (with an arrival time of around 01:05 - admittedly it's useless if you don't live in Glasgow's inner city or use taxis, and probably wouldn't have enough demand) or another inbound working in the morning eg maybe a Longsight-Preston-Glasgow covers one of the Glasgow morning starters.

I'd say an extra morning service is probably better than extending the 20:30 or reinstating the 16:57. Or maybe they extend that 18:40 London - Wolves service up to GLC?

According to RTT, currently 10 sets are allocated to Polmadie, whereas pre-covid it was 11 (including a double and single voyagers)

The reason why I think you'd need a stock balancer is because there won't be available stock to work 1M11 (10:38 GLC-EUS), if it's current inbound (1S34) is used to work 9M53 (10:00 GLC-EUS via West Midlands)

 

[Starmill]

I think there will still need to be a inbound working though (whether from Polmadie or another early morning northbound) if all Blackpool - London via WMs are started back from Glasgow like pre-covid. Maybe the 20:30 from London could be extended to Glasgow to balance Polmadie (with an arrival time of around 01:05) or another inbound working in the morning eg maybe a Longsight-Preston-Glasgow covers one of the Glasgow morning starters.

According to RTT, currently 10 sets are allocated to Polmadie, whereas pre-covid it was 11 (including a double and single voyagers)

If they could get rights for a service which departs Preston around 2300, I suspect that would be very popular with Lancaster passengers who no longer have to make the connection into the last Barrow-in-Furness service, Kendal passengers, who only have a 5 minute taxi ride rather than a 25 minute one from Carnforth, and the most budget-conscious for Glasgow. Sadly they may not have much luck. Also Oxenholme station would need to be staffed for an extra hour or so I think. Same for Penrith if calling there.

 

[Peter0124]

If they could get rights for a service which departs Preston around 2300, I suspect that would be very popular with Lancaster passengers who no longer have to make the connection into the last Barrow-in-Furness service, Kendal passengers, who only have a 5 minute taxi ride rather than a 25 minute one from Carnforth, and the most budget-conscious for Glasgow. Sadly they may not have much luck. Also Oxenholme station would need to be staffed for an extra hour or so I think. Same for Penrith if calling there.

Feel free to see my edited post since I edited it just after you posted (added two new paragraphs)

In the case of a later London-Glasgow train, it would probably be best if it skipped Oxenholme/Penrith.
Although there's a 23:08 service from Oxenholme so you could probably extend the staffing for 15 minutes or so and serve it. But then what happens if the London-Glasgow is late?

And again this is only if the missing Glasgow via West Midlands services are reinstated.

I have a habit of drifting threads off-topic so I think we best discuss this in another thread (maybe the mods could split it for us? )

 

[Bald Rick]

The HSTs took about 4h47/50 on the Flying Scotsman in 1978 IIRC. Reduced to 4h37/39 with the full timetable the next year. Most services were closer to 4h50-5hrs depending on stops.

4h30 on the FS came in 1984, but pushed out to 4h35 for a few years when a York stop was inserted in the mid-80s, before falling to 4h23 in 1988.

The WCML electrification to Glasgow saw most daytime services timed at 5h07/8 with two or three stops. The Royal Scot being an even 5 with one stop at Preston.

The ECML timing of the FS in particular was extended by engineering work allowances at this time, but was reduced to 5h27/28 in 1977.

Thanks for theextra detail.

 

[jfowkes]

And then lose another 20 mins as the trains can't tilt.

And then gain that 20 mins back because the trains have higher acceleration.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does anyone know the calling patterns proposed for this new timetable for each of the services when the Newcastle services start?

Yes, quite a few people

And then lose another 20 mins as the trains can't tilt.

Tilting saves only a handful of minutes from Lichfield to Glasgow.

 

[cle]

Won’t there also be work to round out EPS units at certain points? Like through Norton.

Lakes section is an issue. I’d hope that Northy of Carlisle, improvements could be made to increase line speeds.

And I’d argue a non-stop pattern to Preston, (Lancaster), Carlisle - on one hourly - would also mitigate against today’s timings. Run an Lancs service right after. Although that could apply today.

 

[Failed Unit]

The HSTs took about 4h47/50 on the Flying Scotsman in 1978 IIRC. Reduced to 4h37/39 with the full timetable the next year. Most services were closer to 4h50-5hrs depending on stops.

4h30 on the FS came in 1984, but pushed out to 4h35 for a few years when a York stop was inserted in the mid-80s, before falling to 4h23 in 1988.

The WCML electrification to Glasgow saw most daytime services timed at 5h07/8 with two or three stops. The Royal Scot being an even 5 with one stop at Preston.

The ECML timing of the FS in particular was extended by engineering work allowances at this time, but was reduced to 5h27/28 in 1977.

What caused the increased speed in 1988? The Selby diversion opened circa 1983 which I would expect to result in a big drop, but what engineering works gave the 15 mins saving?

 

[hexagon789]

What caused the increased speed in 1988? The Selby diversion opened circa 1983 which I would expect to result in a big drop, but what engineering works gave the 15 mins saving?

Reductions, countrywide, in engineering allowances, 'weave time' and recovery allowances. The WR and WCML had become particularly bad for these in the middle of the day. There were I understand changes to the way engineering possessions were taken and when to facilitate faster daytime schedules outside only the peak 'prime expresses'.

A lot of schedules were sped up in the late-80s having been decelerated in the early/mid-80s from 1970s high points; though not all - some took until the 90s.

I'm not aware of any significant speed improvements beyond -

ECML in Scotland (1982)
HST limits Edinburgh-Aberdeen (1982)
Selby bypass
110mph on the WCML (1984)
100mph on the HML (1984)
HST limits on the HML (1985)
100mph on the Berks & Hants (1985)

I'm sure others will know of any others.

 

[3RDGEN]

What caused the increased speed in 1988? The Selby diversion opened circa 1983 which I would expect to result in a big drop, but what engineering works gave the 15 mins saving?

BR introduced Dynamic Track Stabilisation track machines in the later 1980's, 1987?, which allowed relaid track to return to traffic at normal line speeds instead of having weeks of low speed TSR's to consolidate the line. This reduced the need for engineering allowances in the timetables and made significant cuts to journey times across the Intercity routes at the time, a significant part of the speed up on ECML was due to this alongside the electrification. The track machines had the Intercity branding on them as they had paid for them I think.

"https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...-machines-and-vehicles/track-treatment-fleet/"

"Dynamic Track Stabilisation and high-speed handbacks​

Dynamic Track Stabilisation (DTS) units are available on some of the more advanced tampers of the type you can see on this page, as well as High Output tampers.

When a tamper is used alone to place the track in its design position and consolidate the ballast after renewal work, there is traditionally a line speed restriction of around 50mph for a period of time afterwards to allow the ballast to settle.

When DTS machines are used together with a tamper, their impact is to consolidate the ballast by simulating the equivalent of up to a week’s worth of trains, so the track won’t settle further. The result is that trains can run on the track at high speeds (80-125mph) straight after renewal work. This is called a high-speed handback."

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