Class 221 for Grand Central

[Neptune]

If GC wanted a sizeable fleet, probably 222s, as they will soon be coming off EMR when they get 810s.
Or more 221s, with other operators then taking on EMR 222s.

There will be 13 available 221’s once the AWC ones are all off lease with 7 of the 20 commited to XC.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There will be 13 available 221’s once the AWC ones are all off lease with 7 of the 20 commited to XC.

Pretty much perfect size that, too.

 

[trainswitheddy]

There will be 13 available 221’s once the AWC ones are all off lease with 7 of the 20 commited to XC.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't the 20 221s include the 2 already with GC right now? Or am I wrong with that

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't the 20 221s include the 2 already with GC right now? Or am I wrong with that

20 present + former Avanti 221s in total (plus 23 more with CrossCountry).
7 have a long term future with CrossCountry.
2 are with Grand Central for the short/medium term.

Grand Central/DfT may opt to take the 13 without a long term future, which would include the two with them currently, but that's speculation.

 

[trainswitheddy]

20 present + former Avanti 221s in total (plus 23 more with CrossCountry).
7 have a long term future with CrossCountry.
2 are with Grand Central for the short/medium term.

Grand Central/DfT may opt to take the 13 without a long term future, which would include the two with them currently, but that's speculation.

Very interesting! Thankyou for clarifying
We will find out I suppose

 

[trainswitheddy]

As is an awful lot of this thread

More will become clear when the lease ends.

 

[trainswitheddy]

When does the current lease expire?

 

[Grumpy]

I had a strange experience today driving into the Asda car park by New Pudsey. I noticed a westbound train and dismissed it as a couple of 195's and didn't take any real notice until another glance showed a different livery.
It was a GC 221 ecs from Crofton to Bradford. I had always understood they ran via Mirfield.

 

[Halish Railway]

It was a GC 221 ecs from Crofton to Bradford. I had always understood they ran via Mirfield.

A few run via Woodlesford and Pudsey for route knowledge retention purposes. A few years ago I took a Grand Central service from Bradford that went to Wakefield Kirkgate via Pudsey and Wakefield Westgate with a reversal just outside of Leeds. Its a diversion that may become very common in the coming years as the route through Mirfield will be closed for extended periods of time to enable Transpennine Route Upgrade works to take place.

 

[Grumpy]

A few years ago I took a Grand Central service from Bradford that went to Wakefield Kirkgate via Pudsey and Wakefield Westgate with a reversal just outside of Leeds. Its a diversion that may become very common in the coming years as the route through Mirfield will be closed for extended periods of time to enable Transpennine Route Upgrade works to take place.

Simpler and quicker if only there was a connecting curve round the back of Copley Hill.......

 

[Kite159]

A few run via Woodlesford and Pudsey for route knowledge retention purposes. A few years ago I took a Grand Central service from Bradford that went to Wakefield Kirkgate via Pudsey and Wakefield Westgate with a reversal just outside of Leeds. Its a diversion that may become very common in the coming years as the route through Mirfield will be closed for extended periods of time to enable Transpennine Route Upgrade works to take place.

Also a common diversion route using the Whitehall curve to head to Wakefield via Woodlesford and reversing after passing Kirkgate to call at platform 3 at Kirkgate.

Avoiding the need to reverse on the outskirts of Leeds which is busier than the area to the south of Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[driverd]

Grand Central/DfT may opt to take the 13 without a long term future, which would include the two with them currently, but that's speculation.

As I understand it, the current future fleet plans are being restricted by GCs track access agreement and ERTMS.

NR have subsidised the fitment of ERTMS equipment to the 180s (which any ECML fleet will require from 2025), and aren't prepared to see that investment go to the scrapyard (or indeed fit the 221 fleet). As such this investment needs to come from elsewhere. If GC or the ROSCO will foot this remains to be seen, but I'm told a lot is dependent on how long-term GCs next track access agreement becomes. Which, I suppose, is quite understandable.

The short summary, then, is 180s aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[D365]

NR have subsidised the fitment of ERTMS equipment to the 180s (which any ECML fleet will require from 2025), and aren't prepared to see that investment go to the scrapyard (or indeed fit the 221 fleet).

Network Rail has already been burned by the effort that went into the Class 365s!

 

[Nym]

Network rail have also subsidised the fitment of ETCS to fleets of three, yes three. Freight locomotives at a very significant assurance and development cost for certain aspects of the design that are special to them trains only. (And some others in scope, but others' design wasn't as far developed yet).

 

[Dan G]

Not sure if this is the right thread but instead of taking two 221s from AWC, why didn't Grand Central take the two remaining 180s that EMR stopped?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Not sure if this is the right thread but instead of taking two 221s from AWC, why didn't Grand Central take the two remaining 180s that EMR stopped?

Strictly speaking Grand Central didn't "take" the 221s from AWC.

AWC handed back 221142 and 22143 to the rosco, and they sat on Central Rivers for several months receiving the same maintenance schedule as those in the active AWC fleet. IIRC the pair sat at Central Rivers all Spring, Summer and the first part of Autumn before ROG used class 37s to drag each to Worksop. The pair then sat unloved in the yard for a few months before the 37s dragged them back to Central Rivers for repairs to wheelset damage and exams to get them back into service.

AIUI the units are popular with the GCR Bradford crews and seem to be well behaved, but there is a problem !!! As only the West Riding GCR crew are competent on the 221s they can only operate the Bradford diagrams, and that means swapping the Sunderland diagrammed 180s at Kings Cross, to get them to their home depot at Crofton is not so easy.

 

[3RDGEN]

Not sure if this is the right thread but instead of taking two 221s from AWC, why didn't Grand Central take the two remaining 180s that EMR stopped?

Maybe they want to sound a warning shot at Angel / Alstom to sort the 180's out, with more 221's becoming available they could be making the point that a change of fleet is possible unless things improve. The ETCS issue mentioned above is a problem as the 180's are fitted and there wasn't a plan for 221's to be fitted for the initial ECML work.

 

[Nym]

221s do have ETCS remember…
Just not to show signals to the driver…

 

[dereksingh291]

221s do have ETCS remember…
Just not to show signals to the driver…

Any reason not to show signals to the driver?

 

[Fincra5]

Any reason not to show signals to the driver?

They're just not fitted with a DMI and associated gubbins (technical term).
Given the WCML etc had plan to be Level 2 incab signalling, why would they have fitted one?

TASS, which they use for tilting is part of ETCS architecture.

 

[Energy]

Maybe they want to sound a warning shot at Angel / Alstom to sort the 180's out

Why would Alstom care? They got paid for building the 180s decades ago and currently don't handle maintanence on them.

 

[Tynwald]

Why would Alstom care? They got paid for building the 180s decades ago and currently don't handle maintanence on them.

They do

 

[357]

Why would Alstom care? They got paid for building the 180s decades ago and currently don't handle maintanence on them.

They do. Remember that Bombardier was taken over by Alstom.

 

[185143]

Strictly speaking Grand Central didn't "take" the 221s from AWC.

AWC handed back 221142 and 22143 to the rosco, and they sat on Central Rivers for several months receiving the same maintenance schedule as those in the active AWC fleet. IIRC the pair sat at Central Rivers all Spring, Summer and the first part of Autumn before ROG used class 37s to drag each to Worksop. The pair then sat unloved in the yard for a few months before the 37s dragged them back to Central Rivers for repairs to wheelset damage and exams to get them back into service.

AIUI the units are popular with the GCR Bradford crews and seem to be well behaved, but there is a problem !!! As only the West Riding GCR crew are competent on the 221s they can only operate the Bradford diagrams, and that means swapping the Sunderland diagrammed 180s at Kings Cross, to get them to their home depot at Crofton is not so easy.

Last time I was on GC was a Voyager so I asked the member of staff serving in the buffet her opinion.

Much better in general, although luggage space isn't as good and she personally preferred the buffet on the 180s was the general gist of it.

 

[Efini92]

221s do have ETCS remember…
Just not to show signals to the driver…

Which part of ETCS do they have?

 

[Energy]

They do. Remember that Bombardier was taken over by Alstom.

Of course

 

[Dan G]

Maybe they want to sound a warning shot at Angel / Alstom to sort the 180's out, with more 221's becoming available they could be making the point that a change of fleet is possible unless things improve. The ETCS issue mentioned above is a problem as the 180's are fitted and there wasn't a plan for 221's to be fitted for the initial ECML work.

Makes sense, thank you. Otherwise establishing a mixed fleet with associated costs/overheads of crew training, new maintenance contracts seems inefficient when there are two more (albeit the last) trains of their existing fleet type available.

 

[Fincra5]

Which part of ETCS do they have?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilt_Authorisation_and_Speed_Supervision
TASS.

Worth remembering ETCS isn't just In-Cab Signalling there are lots of parts to it.

 

[Efini92]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilt_Authorisation_and_Speed_Supervision
TASS.

Worth remembering ETCS isn't just In-Cab Signalling there are lots of parts to it.

I didn’t think Tass was part of ETCS, but I think I’m mixing it up with ERTMS.

 

[43096]

They do. Remember that Bombardier was taken over by Alstom.

And remember that the 180s are maintained by Alstom at Crofton. If 221s took over, they would be maintained by… Alstom at Crofton.

So they are not bothered either way.